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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old November 22nd, 2017, 15:10   #1
meerschm
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Default 2017 Golf SportWagen S 1.8L TSI CXBB

I purchased this car as a replacement for my 09 TDI wagen.

now learning anew what this is all about. the wagen is familiar, with an update, and 4mo to learn about

found an earlier SSP, for an 888 gen 3, but not specific to the CXBB

would be interested if someone has an Self study guide specific to the CXBB

Plenty of complicated stuff in this engine



logged my drive to work, and saw the coolant temp jump to hot so fast, it was shocking, compared to my TDI. and then it seems to jump around a bit. then the SSP says the system regulates to one of two temps, 107 or 85 C, (and of course the instrument panel indicator stays glued at 200f after getting there)

On second read, the system selects a coolant temperature within the range.

and the separate coolant pump runs after shutdown. probably good for the turbo, which seems to be in one of the coolant loops
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Old November 23rd, 2017, 05:18   #2
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above is the new GSW

below is the JSW TDI



both charts are the same drive to work,

and the time is similar, but not exact. 1480 seconds for the upper, 1660 seconds for the lower
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Old November 28th, 2017, 09:07   #3
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I now own an EA888 gen 3b (Budack cycle), so I have been doing a little learning also.
A big reason why the 888 warms up faster is because VW uses a water cooled exhaust manifold. This is for several reasons, but one of the stated ones is faster warmup for less emissions. As far as temperature stability, I am not sure - perhaps they are related?

Have Fun!

Don
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Old November 28th, 2017, 09:43   #4
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https://www.carworklog.com/2017/01/0...-program-pdfs/

lists a couple SSP pdfs somewhat related.

https://www.carworklog.com/stuff/SSP...eneration).pdf

includes descriptions for a pretty complicated electronic controlled coolant temperature control system.

I followed up with a log of a few other temps in VCDS. there are readings for specified and actual coolant temps. they track pretty close to each other, and vary all over the place, as shown in the above chart.

seems they include a target coolant temperature to go with the operating condition maps in the engine. so, depending on how we drive, (and ask for heat from the HVAC or not), the target temperature is varied.
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Old November 28th, 2017, 10:53   #5
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Thanks for the link to the gen 3 SSP. It does look like a very complex cooling system control setup. Very interesting. From what I have gathered the biggest difference between your gen 3 engine and my gen 3b engine is in the intake cam shaft. If you look at the exhaust cam shaft in the SSP you can see the multiple cam lobes. The new "B" series uses a very similar dual cam lobe setup on the intake cam shaft as well as the exhaust.

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Old November 28th, 2017, 10:54   #6
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They employ a pretty complex water pumping system, too.

They use the high exhaust temp for initial warm up, then need to back off of some of the coolant flow in that area so that the exhaust stays hot enough to let the catalyst do its job properly.

Honda, Chrysler, and I'm sure others do the water jacket around the exhaust port thing for this very reason.
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Old November 28th, 2017, 14:55   #7
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https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/m...are/18TFSI.pdf

is another good read.

they talk here about the thermodynamic modeling they used to look at how that heat flows between exhaust gasses, metal parts, and coolant.
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Old November 28th, 2017, 14:59   #8
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On a related note, I have six quarts of 507 00 oil and a couple oil filters for the CBEA. was going to visit the local parts desk with a smile on my face to see if I can trade for gasser parts.

but then, the 507 00 oil Castrol LL03, is 504 00 and 507 00. which seems ok to use in the 2017 GSW.

sticker under the hood says 502 00, but the owners manual says 502 00, 503 00 or 504 00

brings up the question, use 5w30 or 5w40?
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Old November 28th, 2017, 15:12   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerschm View Post
On a related note, I have six quarts of 507 00 oil and a couple oil filters for the CBEA. was going to visit the local parts desk with a smile on my face to see if I can trade for gasser parts.

but then, the 507 00 oil Castrol LL03, is 504 00 and 507 00. which seems ok to use in the 2017 GSW.

sticker under the hood says 502 00, but the owners manual says 502 00, 503 00 or 504 00

brings up the question, use 5w30 or 5w40?
Just to make matters even more confusing, the 2018 VW gassers have a new oil specification - VW 508/509 which is a 0W20 full synthetic motor oil. I have severe second thoughts about running an oil that thin in my car. Time will tell what I will use when I am due for my first oil change.

Have Fun!

Don

P.S. I also have 6 or 8 liters of VW 507 oil in my garage.
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Old November 28th, 2017, 15:17   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
They employ a pretty complex water pumping system, too.

They use the high exhaust temp for initial warm up, then need to back off of some of the coolant flow in that area so that the exhaust stays hot enough to let the catalyst do its job properly.

Honda, Chrysler, and I'm sure others do the water jacket around the exhaust port thing for this very reason.

Thanks!

it also looks like this lets them reduce the exhaust temp at higher loads to protect both the turbo and that catalyst. (as a better alternative to dumping extra fuel in the path, which also would cool the exhaust)

https://youtu.be/nNendiDFzSM

is linked to from here

http://gas2.org/2017/06/23/water-coo...wer-emissions/



and here is a video from a Chevy engineer from six years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RomuhVwRgxc
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Old November 28th, 2017, 15:19   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWTDI09 View Post
Just to make matters even more confusing, the 2018 VW gassers have a new oil specification - VW 508/509 which is a 0W20 full synthetic motor oil. I have severe second thoughts about running an oil that thin in my car. Time will tell what I will use when I am due for my first oil change.

Have Fun!

Don

P.S. I also have 6 or 8 liters of VW 507 oil in my garage.

sounds like what Chevy did with the Dexos. (when the engines are designed for the thinner oil) I think I read where this was a superior lubrication solution for engines with reduced clearances in internal parts.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 05:03   #12
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One thing is for certain: when they break, it is going to be labor intensive to do anything, and parts are not likely to be cheap.

The water pump alone, which is built upon a design that has in its nearly decade long existence, been a constant wallet emptying nuisance for owners, makes my butthole pucker.

And we've already seen how fragile the plastic oil pans are. Dead possum will take one out. Luckily the got by with a $500 bill, as he shut the engine off right away. But geez.... a dead possum? Come on.... if they are that fragile, they should come standard with some sort of metal skidplate on the bottom of the car. The low hanging aluminum pans now almost seem robust in comparison.

At least the Tiggy sits higher, and the Alltrack does too.

I am also not getting a warm fuzzy feeling about the 0w20 oil. My reasoning? Two fold.

First, many of the other manufacturers that have on some engines spec'd a 5w20 or 0w20 oil have already shown us that any and all oil consumption issues will be compounded by the use of a thinner oil. In some cases, engines that already are WELL KNOWN for rampant oil burning problems like Subaru and Mitsubishi and some Toyotas will turn a quart every 2500 mile habit with 5w30 into a quart every 1500 mile habit with 0w20. Subie did at least up the oil capacity, but still, on a fleet of Foresters we regularly service, on a 5k interval (fleet mandated, Subaru says 7500), they all come in with either the oil at the very low tip (below the operating range) on the dipstick, or the dipstick completely dry. Every. Single. One. And these are NEW cars, not some clapped out worn out 150k mile unit. Many VAG gasoline engines have also had some pretty abysmal oil consumption problems, some far worse than others, and this was with a 5w40 spec motor oil on board. And many (most) have a 10k mile interval. If there is no input from the owner to take the reins and keep the oil level topped off, an engine that consumes 1 liter of 5w40 oil every 2500 miles is going to be spending most of its [short] life perpetually low on oil. They simply cannot safely go 10k miles without opening the hood. Maybe they get by with this for the first 50k miles or so, but by then the oil consumption has increased, and ring/breather coking has snowballed, to the point that it becomes a race to see if the engine blows up first or the catalyst dies from trying to deal with being slowly poisoned by all this extra oil. 0w20 will only make this worse. Again, VAG, like others, have increased the oil capacity. Most of the 4 cyl engines went from 4.25 L, to 4.5 L, to 5 L, and now the newest ones are 5.5 L capacity. And they generally have low oil sensors. That is good, and may soften the blow of any increased oil consumption.

Second, the reason as to "why" use a thinner oil. I think most of it is to eek out a wee bit better fuel consumption, not necessarily to aid in start up lubrication for that first 15 seconds. Did they actually DO the fieldwork to insure the thinner oil is actually OK for the engine? Or, more importantly, OK for the engine long term, meaning, beyond its warranty period? Also, just like we used to see with carburetor engines, the oil with DI gas engines, turbo or not, tends to get "washed out" and fuel diluted. So it thins before it thickens. When you drain the oil on many of these engines, it comes out like black 1970s lawn mower oil. Wouldn't it stand to reason that an oil that starts out thinner already will get even thinner yet once this fuel dilution happens? Unscientific for sure, but the Pentosin 5w40 HP2 oil that I drain out of my 170hp 1.8t AWM engine after 10k miles looks and feels more like new oil than the same oil I drain from the "new" 170hp 1.8t engine in a newish Golf or Jetta. And the newer engines hold nearly a liter more oil!

Lots to consider, that's for sure. We have already seen a rapid increase in major mechanical engine damage in some newer engines that get the least bit neglected, and they are no longer cost effective to fix, given their complexity. They just get replaced. Most recently is the new 4.3L V6 in GM C/K trucks and G-vans. The vario-cam, cylinder deactivation, etc. stuff is all depending on lots of oil flow, clean oil, with no chunks coking up all the countless little passages. They have no tolerance for neglect. The fleets are finding this out the hard way. The old 4.3L V6 (especially the REALLY old TBI ones from the early '90s) were tough engines that could take all kinds of neglect and abuse. Not as powerful, not as clean, not as fuel efficient, but a weak, thirsty, dirty engine that still runs will get your truck to the job site. A fancy new one with a perpetual MIL on that just left you dead on the side of the road won't.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 08:08   #13
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https://noln.net/2017/06/30/skinny-ow-16-oil/ even thinner oil for better fuel economy. (with a promise of 0w8!) the bottom line seems to be that these engines need to be watched.

thanks for the good advice on not neglecting maintenance.

Also, I parked this wagon in the same place my 09 was parked for almost 9 years, and already found snack residue from a rodent in the 2017. my guess is a chipmunk, who left a chewed up acorn in front of the battery, and one more in an engine mount bolt hole. vacuumed out the mess, and will keep a close eye on it.


My guess is that the coolant formulation and composition is important as well. will keep a close eye on level, color, and clarity. I thought about the advantages of a little higher clearance in the alltrack, but since I managed to avoid damage for 205,000 miles in the GSW, (and have a set of snows that fit the wagon), decided to chance it.


This new car also shows oil temperature in the dash display, but it does not seem to match the VCDS oil temperature measuring blocks. probably another computer mapping that makes sense to some german intern five years ago. for some reason, the oil temperature dash display reads --- until the engine is half way warmed up.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 09:33   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
I am also not getting a warm fuzzy feeling about the 0w20 oil.
I actually exchanged PMs with TooSlick (and others) asking their opinions about this 0W20 spec. We all pretty much agree. If (when) I need to add oil, it will be my left over VW507 (5W30) and on the first oil change it will be going to a good quality 5W20 or maybe 0W30 weight full synthetic oil. This should make only a tiny difference in economy (if any).

Speaking of economy; I've been impressed by the economy I am seeing with the new "B-cycle" engines. My new car is the first non-diesel vehicle I have driven that routinely exceeds the EPA estimates for fuel economy. My Tiggy is rated at 22/27 mpg (avg. 24). So far I have not had a single tank with an average under 27 and my best tank was 31.5. That best tank was about 1/3 highway, all the rest of my driving is stop&go city driving. I find this pretty impressive for a vehicle of this size and weight.

They say that this new "B-cycle" engine will be the standard in new VWs in the future. So far it is only in the 2018 Tiguans. Time will tell. I do not know why, but this is the second time I have bought a new VW with a new engine design. I must be a sucker for punishment.

Have Fun!

Don
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Old November 29th, 2017, 10:31   #15
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Well if you are not going to be driving as much, as you said before, you could deal with such poor fuel economy. I couldn't. But I drive more than you do, and I drive in cold weather... and I will have to do so for quite a while longer.

I am spoiled, I could never drive anything daily that was not able to at least tag 40. What sucks for me is that there is not ever going to be anything better than what I already have now in that regard, and what I have now is several stages technology backwards. And I don't see the EVs' technology and prices coming to that point any time soon, but will almost certainly at some point be the next thing for me.

Or I could move closer to work.... but every evening on the local news I am reminded of why I moved out to the boonies in the first place.

While I would say that a ~30 MPG Tiguan is pretty good, I'll bet the[forbidden] diesel version gets much better. And that fact alone would anger me. It angers me to look down at my rare-driven gasser Passat and see 24 MPG staring me back in the face, when my diesel Passat smiles back a 42 on the same trip. Granted, the gasser is AWD, but still, a pretty staggering difference.
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