Cylinder head porting data

I'm currently in the middle of using a Superflow SF600 flow bench to do some porting research and since I have nothing to hide, I figured I'd share my results with the masses .

So, here's the first set of data. Stay tuned for more next week.

This is of a completely stock, unported alh head. Just hot tanked and clean. Conditions of the test were 28" test pressure and the head was set over a 4" bore.

Exhaust:
.100" - 23.2cfm
.200" - 63.3cfm
.300" - 87.7cfm
.400" - 92.5cfm
.450" - 92.5cfm

Intake:
.100" - 43.3cfm
.200" - 77.9cfm
.300" - 93.8cfm
.400" - 103cfm
.450" - 107.5cfm



Let the scrutiny begin .

Questions:

1. What did you use for smoothing the flow at the intake port entrance?

2. Did you use a short tube on the exhaust port to smooth the flow?

3. I would love to see you put the intake and exhaust manifolds on and get readings from that stand point. Understand, that is a PITA though.

JonFord

Whitbread said:

I'm currently in the middle of using a Superflow SF600 flow bench to do some porting research and since I have nothing to hide, I figured I'd share my results with the masses .

So, here's the first set of data. Stay tuned for more next week.

This is of a completely stock, unported alh head. Just hot tanked and clean. Conditions of the test were 28" test pressure and the head was set over a 4" bore.

Exhaust:
.100" - 23.2cfm
.200" - 63.3cfm
.300" - 87.7cfm
.400" - 92.5cfm
.450" - 92.5cfm

Intake:
.100" - 43.3cfm
.200" - 77.9cfm
.300" - 93.8cfm
.400" - 103cfm
.450" - 107.5cfm



Let the scrutiny begin .

Click to expand...

you already screwed up real world data but you knew that.

giving away info to make friends only gets you broke and overworked.aren't you already behind on down pipes.

Matt,

I second Johns comments, I too would love to see you use a 82mm bore instead of the 4" one . AND if you can run the tests at higher flow rates... IIRC that bench will do 48" or ~2psi? The higher flow rates will teach you more since these engines are pushing more flow and pressures. I guess that is where Bills many years of experience will pay off. Thank you for the data and please keep it up, I would like to see how the above changes modifies your values.

I know the 4" bore isn't correct, and I'm trying to find some time to lathe a 82mm one up. But for the moment, as long as I use the same bore size, we can see results. Either way, the flow is crap haha.

Jon - No, I did not bolt any tubes on the head. I forgot to grab the header off my car and all my intake manifold cores are scattered across the US right now.

Shorty - I'll definitely do tests at increased pressures. I only had enough time to bolt the head up and flow it once. Next week I'll have lots of time to play around with different things.

I'm not out to make friends or money here , just sharing knowledge with like minded people with a common curiosity that may not have access to a flowbench themselves. I'm actually trying to get a job at a local chemical plant as a welder/machinist. The pay and benefits are so good, I can't let it pass. And since I'm going to be buying my house later this year, I have to play the bank's game and they generally don't like to lend money to self employed individuals with a crapload of student loans haha.

Good! Good luck on the house...I want one too. It will be interesting to see what you come up with for numbers. But as you are getting a cool new gig....keep in mind that this is why some take exception to giving away their hard won knowledge. Some o us do this for a LIVING. We have a vested interest as we are not doing this for donut money. This is how we pay our rent and mortgages and equipment cost and our OWN health insurance and so on. So. If some seem abrasive to you. Keep in mind, you have nothing to lose by giving away priveleged info. It didnt cost you anything to get it. Some of us have paid...years and millions.

So again. I am glad you are doing the research, and I have no problem with you posting it, but for some, its their livlihood, so don feel like they are being mean if they dont agree with helping. They dont have another job. Just this one.

I completely understand where you and Bill are coming from and don't take any offense. But also don't forget, this is also my job and the only way I pay my bills. Yes, I'm trying to get the other job only to play the bank and money lending game, but there's no guarantee's at all. Right now I'm working on anything I can get my hands on to keep ends meeting. I love what I do and want to keep doing it.

I've been doing a lot of port work for a while on all kinds of crap, this is just the first time I've had the chance to use a flowbench. I'm doing all this to get the head for my car the best it can be. And since my 6 speed is finally in the states, it's time to get my project in gear and get it running.

If anything, once I get some ported flow numbers, it would be really cool if you guys could post up some numbers; no pics of course. Lets see the difference 20+ years experience make. If anything, it'll be good advertising for you guys if you "put me in my place" .

Whitbread,
You are to be applauded for your efforts and your desire to advance the knowledge base of your fellow forum members. Pay no attention to the individuals that appear to lack the motivation or ability to move forward and learn enough new things to stay far enough ahead to not feel threatened by you.
Most of us involved in technical fields must continue to learn new material daily, in order to keep up with the competition. That's just the way it is.
You are a member of a fine group that should welcome your efforts, keep it coming! This is the purpose of this forum after all.
I will give Mrchill the benefit of the doubt, maybe he is having a bad day....

No. I am having a great day actually. I feel that anyone in any feel should always strive to go forward. Why do you think I am where I am? Because I am always testing, investigating researching. This is my job AND my hobby. (its nice when you get paid to do something you enjoy). My point was that in every single field in the world bar none, there are things you DONT give away. Otherwise, there would be no competition...and thus no revenue...and thus no jobs. If someone decides to give away their research, they can do that. They just cannot expect everyone to do it. And lets face it, if you have a good business model, do you need a second job? Some do. I could use one as my research is VERY expensive. Problem is, I have no time. Due to work...and research. I spent the first 18 years of my career giving away every edge I had developed. I still dont own a house, and cannot put any of my 4 children through school. Would YOU have done that?

Again, sharing is fine...and I do it all the time. I get more phone calls from everywhere which I happily answer and help out. I just understand that not everyone will do that and I understand why. One might argue, that if I treated everyone the way I was treated(No one taught me what I know. I had to learn it myself, auto repair was a coveted skill when I was young), then I would have the two or three houses and the boat and the college savings and the nice car and such. But I chose to go the other way. It cost me a lot. Hopefully those who benefited appreciate it.

No one is more motivated than me. I do this because I love to do it and I love a challenge. I am a hard act to follow as a result. Because while folks are having a beer with friends, I am measuring engine parts and customizing turbos and doing in depth research. When other guys buy a four wheeler to go have fun in the woods, I buy more tools and equipment. I travel the world to find parts and different designs as well as tools. I didnt get this way by mistake, it was hard work. I wont change because its who I am. This is why despite what is cost me I have given so much. Information is power. We should all have it. But some work harder for it than others and thus reap the benefits sooner.

So, back to the thread. I think its awesome that Matt has access(or maybe bought) a flow bench. New tools RULE! Come see my garage if you arent sure how much I like tools. And the only thing better than having a tool...is learning to use it. This is why its so interesting what is posted. It will show the learning curve that is involve with the acquisition and use of a new tool or device and will also gie some good comparisons. The neat thing about diagnostic devices such as flow bench is that it can prove and disprove lots of things. It can also leave you guessing sometimes as one design make more power than another, but the flow bench doesnt show it. Then you have to do MORE research to find out why....and THAT my friend, is where all the fun is at!!

Whitbread said:

I
If anything, once I get some ported flow numbers, it would be really cool if you guys could post up some numbers; no pics of course. Lets see the difference 20+ years experience make. If anything, it'll be good advertising for you guys if you "put me in my place" .

Click to expand...

i laid down 205hp at the wheels,no break in period on a conservative dyno.i have all i need to prove.then theres my own big valve head.
maybe you guys would like bbc flow data,its on a 4" bore.what the hell,flow is flow right.
maybe the tuners would like to give their tunes away,hell its alot quicker to change code than to port one of these heads properly.

Going to be an interesting thread this.

I've just got a PD head to cut up as I want to have a go a porting one myself, its not something i've done before but I like to have a go with things like this and if there is a chance I can do something myself I hate paying someone to do it for me.

I'm not expecting it to be quick and easy, i'm also not expecting results anywhere near the standard any of the pros on here would achieve, as long as I manage a mild improvment without messing anything up I will be happy, and save a big chunk of money in the process.

I don't think giving away this sort of information will take much business away from anyone because the majority of people probably wouldn't want to do this sort of job themselves either through lack of time, confidence or just knowing they couldn't do as good a job as if they paid a pro.

Why the pissing match? If WB does his own porting and shares that information, that shouldn't affect MrChill's biz. Porting is NOT all about the numbers or making the runners bigger. It's about where to take out metal, where to leave it, where to hog out the ports and where just to smooth it out that's going to make the best power under the curve. And that only comes with time, research and experience. Flow numbers will not give you any of that.

WB's "before and after" comparos will give the WHOLE community what the heads are capable of without giving away any porting secrets. And just because the numbers increase, doesn't mean the car will be faster.

I got some numbers at 25" on homemade bench, shape in exh flow curve is the same, restrictive ass hell oem wise

mrchill said:

Why do you think I am where I am? Because I am always testing, investigating researching. This is my job AND my hobby..... I spent the first 18 years of my career giving away every edge I had developed. I still dont own a house, and cannot put any of my 4 children through school. Would YOU have done that?
I would have the two or three houses and the boat and the college savings and the nice car and such. But I chose to go the other way. It cost me a lot.
No one is more motivated than me. I do this because I love to do it and I love a challenge. I am a hard act to follow as a result. I didnt get this way by mistake, it was hard work. I wont change because its who I am. This is why despite what is cost me I have given so much. Information is power. We should all have it. But some work harder for it than others and thus reap the benefits sooner.

Click to expand...

Wow! What a diatribe. No offense meant by my reply here, as I'm sure you are truly a guru for making power with TDIs. Honestly, I believe that.

But I truly don't know what reputation it is you are even defending right now. I have read this forum every day for the last 3 years, and only knew you as an occasional contributor, often negative, and secretive. I think I knew you were a local guru, but that's about it. Ok, so you have vendor status... but you don't advertise, your sig only has vague links to philosophical hokey pokey websites.... there's no customer testimonials for you (that I know of). You don't share any data or photos of your work. You don't have project vehicles with dyno tests to back up your work. I'm not sure I even knew that you ported cylinder heads...! Maybe I missed something (probably) but my point is that your own view of your reputation as a TDI wizard probably differs significantly from the masses (i.e. me).

Being secretive can protect your intellectual property, sure. But what is it really getting you!? Frankly porting TDI cylinder heads sounds like a pretty poor source of primary employment. And if Matt sharing some crude flow numbers scares you... well that's pretty sad. The point of this forum is to share information and help each other evolve the science of TDI tuning. But of course holding on to one specific source of knowledge for such a tiny niche market is completely up to you. And no offense meant by this, at all. Just wanted to share an opinion you might not be aware of....

I for one love to see sharing of data and research, so kudos to Matt. Any pics of your flow bench setup?

Porting is a grea bway to make power. Its not all I do. I also said it was a great thing Matt is doing. And you are correct. It isnt a tell all...I said that too. I am on these forums a lot. BUT I also have a job. Its here that most of the action happens and the calls are made. Its here that I do the bulk of my assistance. Often for no money...it isnt always about money. You read all the wrong stuff if you think I am being secretive all the time. Read more...talk less. Perhaps you think like many others that before I joined Tdiclub that I was some other person with some other job. That isnt true. I have always been the mad scientist type building projects. I have always tested stuff out. I have even proven wrong and right many known theories. If you read far enough back on This site, you will see it. But it isnt only here. Here is a great place to socialize and interact with great people. I get lots of ideas from folks here, and have also gotten a lot of help. I reciprocate.

You see, I am not into glory, else I would behave like many others. Lots of people who post up issues I have pm'd and helped out. I have driven miles to get cars going for free. I dont talk about it because it isnt relevant. Lots of folks on this site give of themselves for free. When I said that "I didnt get to where I am" it had nothing to do with Tdi's. You are mistaken in what you thought. I dont ask for anyone to post what a swell guy I am because I dont think its right. If you want to know what it is I was talking about....you can simply....ask. You would lose the ability to post your melodramatic soliloquy, but you would have the answers you ask for. You say I am being secretive, but have you EVER asked me anything?

I havent ported a head myself in a couple of years. Why? Because Bill does a fantastic job of it and he is 20 minutes away. He was the only one I could find who shared my zeal for power and economy and he was JUST as picky as I am. Matts info has zero effect on my business. I said that but you somehow missed it. Matts info will be helpful for all...including me for the reasons I posted. Again, if you want info...ask for it. Unless you really didnt want it.....

Ok, fair enough. Hopefully without derailing the thread I'll reply once quickly and then shut up.

I definitely interepreted the "why do you think I am where I am?" comment as a testament to your TDI guru-ness. We are in a thread discussing porting TDI cylinder heads, after all. You then implied that you've missed out on hundreds of thousands of dollars because you gave away all your trade secrets. I'm just wondering what those are, because I don't see much research or tuning info coming from you....

No, I haven't asked you anything. I don't even know what to ask. That's why I really appreciate threads like this one where people voluntarily share data, for the common good. Then you come in, boast about achievements that I can't see any evidence of, and try to get Matt to understand not to share trade secrets because someone's income might depend on it? I'm not saying you're not a helpful person or anything like that. Like I said, I've been reading the power enhancement forum for a few years now and did not get the impression that you were a high HP engine builder. Share some more stuff with us! I'd love to see what you do. Sorry I even said the word "secretive". That's just the flavor I was getting.

No problem dude. I often do cars for others. I havent had the time to finish my latest stuff(belonging to me). Some cars I build entirely. Others I just have a hand in. I am always out for more...it gets expensive, but its fun, and hey....I dont drink much, I dont smoke, I dont do drugs, I dont gamble, I dont chase skirts...so..I play with cars. So if its expensive, I guess its relative to what some do with their dollars(not that anyone is complaining). I am definitely a proponent of data. I just dont post everything I am involved in. If anyone asks....and they sometimes to, I tell them whatever they wish to know(who's car makes what, how it was done, how much does it cost of "x" and so on). I have never posted any flow numbers because no one local is proficient in testing these heads under pressure, and I dont have a flow bench myself. Bill doesnt like his, so he uses another one.

I have a lot of before and after data...but it isnt as useful as sheer numbers as one might think as it is largely car dependent. But it gives me the info I need to know whaich direction to go in on each car. Someone should donate a couple of head(lend) to Matt to measure those. I think you will see some interesting things. I am out of heads...I have to buy more.

Looking forward to the results

Personally, as long as you use the same bore for before & after, it will indicate a %% gain, so that's job done. Why be too bothered about the actual flow when it's all about the gain over stock?

Thats an interesting point. Would the numbers remain correct (percentage wise) if one were to measure everything again with the correct bore? If so, that would make things easier.

#1. I have met both MrChill and Whitbread, both great guys.

#2. I know of several people (first hand) who have been helped by Chill, myself included. He is a great guy who dumps a wad o' dough into figurin' out questions, some of which haven't been asked yet

#3. I think that porting heads is an art form and Picasso wasn't concerned about the price of paint -n- brushes. Which is why Bill (87turboquattro) did my head. (how'd your surgery go?)

#4. Chill and Bill have all played a big part in a project car of mine. When Jason gets it all put together number will be posted.

#5. This is a very small niche market, and it doesn't take much competition to make the $$$ not work out on the plus side. That is all that was being said, but Matt is a bright guy with a good business sense and despite anyones concerns everyone who has posted so far is looking forward to seeing the numbers!

surgury went well,way more damage than xray showed.first nite was very painful.should be back porting heads by april.
way i see it,i get pm's all the time for pics of my work,why,its just a shinish port.did bob glidden show his intakes when winning prostock,absolutely not.you want pics,get one of my heads,but then you sign a confidentiality form.

All,

I think everyone here Bill, Matt, Chris, ETC. All have contributed in many fashions to the groups success. We ALL have some info we hold on to for some reason or another. Maybe on purpose maybe not. It all gets confusing when we start getting into business relations with this hobby. Overall, I think its great we all share bits of our success with each other. I myself have learned a lot from reading, testing, and talking to many people on this board. Thank you all for the help; in return I promise to continue to help others the same way you help me. I hope everyone continues this same way so we can all prosper from the information we share for the many models and tdi's to come.

In an effort to get this thread on track I am going to edit my posts that do not deal with the head work to bring things back into context.

As Kyle said, we all have info that's on the do not share list and I'm obviously withholding that to myself . On the other hand, I still don't see the harm in posting up numbers. If it was high res pictures with measurements, ok, that's another matter.

Anyway, had some time to get back on the bench today. I'll be machining a 80mm bore for next week and testing with manifolds at higher pressures. Today was still on the 4" bore with no manifolds at 28".

For this run, everything was just lightly cleaned up, no port dimension changes.
Intake:
.100" - 45.21cfm
.200" - 75.78cfm
.300" - 93.64cfm
.400" - 104.65cfm
.450" - 109.41cfm

Exhaust:
.100" - 26.8cfm
.200" - 63.04cfm
.300" - 66.2cfm
.400" - 92.6cfm
.450" - 99.7cfm


This run had a decent amount of work done and a hell of a mess made on the workbench .

Intake:
.100" - 45.8cfm
.200" - 76cfm
.300" - 96.8cfm
.400" - 111.4cfm
.450" - 115.6cfm

Exhaust:
.100" - 32cfm
.200" - 62.2cfm
.300" - 85.6cfm
.400" - 111.9cfm
.450" - 114.4cfm

I think a 23.6% gain on the exhaust and 7.5% on the intake isn't too bad for one night of work. I worked a bit more on the both runners but didn't have time to reflow it so it'll have to wait until tomorrow.

Matt, Would you check your numbers.. @ .200" on your worked head, the exhaust is less? typo? if it was 63.04 cfm and after it's 62.2 cfm ,doesnt make sense.

but great work so far. keep it up

TDikook said:

Matt, Would you check your numbers.. @ .200" on your worked head, the exhaust is less? typo? if it was 63.04 cfm and after it's 62.2 cfm ,doesnt make sense.

but great work so far. keep it up

Click to expand...

It's close enough that I could have looked at the one of the manometers from a ever so slightly different angle and read ~.5% differently from the time before to give the .8cfm difference in the math.

still, very interesting numbers. Excellent to do it in so many stages.

Whitbread said:

I think a 23.6% gain on the exhaust and 7.5% on the intake isn't too bad for one night of work. I worked a bit more on the both runners but didn't have time to reflow it so it'll have to wait until tomorrow.

Click to expand...

so to clarify,how many hours in your nite?was this one port or all 8 ports in your nite?
did you flow all the ports or are you gonna be withholding that info to yourself?

Great point Bill,

Matt which cyl is this for? Or is this an average? Bill is going to tell us it will change per head and per cylinder I bet... What a PITA it would be to equalize all four cylinders so that you get even flow distribution.

screwing around I threw the data into an excel sheet for some calculations I have been doing...



It looks to me like a few flow numbers may be off giving us around a 2% error but overal things look good. I also put in an estimate of what I would expect from a fully done up head.... Only Bill and Markop might be able to tell us if this is what they would expect or not.

My night was 7 hours on one pair of ports. The #2 cylinder to be exact. I'm sure flow will change between cylinders too. I also used the other flowbench last night so that might account for some of the small error percentage. I'll try to stay on this one from now on.

The only thing I'll be withholding to myself in this project are high res pics and detailed descriptions of what was done. Numbers will be a plenty since I still don't see the harm in them.

This is all being done on a junk head so far. Once I get it where I want it, I'll start on my head and I'll flow all 8 ports and see how uneven it is. Should be next week's fun.

Interesting predictions. Really think a 2mm larger valve will pick up that much flow Kyle?

Wait, the before and after are from different flow bench setups? Same 4" bore? Interesting that some partial openings actually yield worse flow / no gain on the ported head....

So would any guru's care to chime in on how many HP would be gained from, say a 8% int and 30% exh flow improvement? Do we have dyno results out there from before and after head porting?