Burning lots of oil. This ain't good.

My dad owns a 1999.5 A4 ALH Jetta with 208K mi on the clock. Normally, we go through a quart of oil per 7K miles. From searching this site, this seems the be the norm. But lately, I think there is a big issue. I just started the car and was backing up when I goosed the throttle and a big puff of blue smoke came out of the exhaust.I had all the windows open, so the smoke came right into the car. I figured it was was because we were due for injector nozzles so I didn't pay too much attention to it until I smelled it. It smelled like pure motor oil burning. While it is idling I can see a blue haze. When I rev it, I can see puffs of blue smoke. I was busy at the time, so I put checking the oil on the to-do list. Just tonight, by dad pulled the dip stick out and there was just a bit at the end of the stick. It must be 2quarts low. We changed the the oil just 5,000 miles ago. It does NOT normally burn this much oil. We don't even have enough oil on hand to fill it the the full mark.

The turbo was replaced at 125,000 mi by us. We never changed the setting on the actuator on the new one when we replaced it. Could it be due to the turbo is overboosting and killing it's self? I checking the boost pressure with the vag-com a while back, and I remember the actual line was a bit higher than the requested line. Also top EGR rubber boost pipe swells when I rev the engine.


Any thoughts?

I'd check the turbo, as one of the primary modes of failure seems to be oil seals go bad, which can lead to oil burning and then engine run-away. That you had to replace the turbo at 125,000 miles suggests that you may be giving it too little cool-down time at engine shut-down. If you run it on the freeway, or climb a hill, and then don't give it a minute or two run-time before you shut the engine off, the oil seals in the turbo take a beating.

You don't say what oil you are using. I trust a top-drawer synthetic, like Mobil 1 TDT 5w40? Or Shell Rotella synthetic 5w40? If not, that oil will be especially prone to killing the oil seals in the turbo.

We are now using 5W-40 Rotella synthetic. Were did use mobil 1 in the past and that's what killed the previous turbo.

I usually let the engine cool down for a few minutes before killing it. I thought turbo cool down was a non-issue on diesels since they run a much lower EGT temp than gassers.

Is there a way to replace the seals in the turbo without spending a grand on a whole new turbo?

I am thinking that I will pull the lower intercooler pipe and see how much oil is in there. Maybe bypass the CCV for now to rule that out too.

Which Mobil 1 oil had you been using?

turbocharged798 said:

My dad owns a 1999.5 A4 ALH Jetta with 208K mi

I figured it was was because we were due for injector nozzles so I didn't pay too much attention to it until I smelled it.
Any thoughts?

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Change out your injector tips, as scheduled. Next pull you turbo compressor hose and check visually for leaks. You know how to do that, don't second guess if there is a leak from the seals if you can actually pull a hose and see it for yourself.

Bob: the gasser standard mobile 1 stuff. I know I know, it's the wrong oil. It's before I know about this site and my dad listened to the stealership too much. Don't even get me started on the stealership.

BryanCT: Don't I have to get the injectors pop tested first? I had nozzlers on my list of next things to replace, but it seem a little tricky. I downloaded the how-to PDF on nozzle swaping. I also something about balancing them too?

Anyway, I will probably start pulling boost hoses off when I get a chance. I have been really busy lately and don't have much time right now. Maybe this weekend I will pull it apart if I get enough time.

I probably shouldn't drive the car at all right now. I would hate to get a slug of oil in my intake. I have seen what damage that can do.

Now this is all assuming that it is the turbo. Could it be engine related? I am doubting it, but there is still a possibility that something is screwed interinally. I will try to get a diesel compression tester just the rule out any internal engine problems.

I also disconnected the EGR and did the maf twist recently, but I doubt that it has anything to do with it.

turbocharged798 said:

BryanCT: Don't I have to get the injectors pop tested first? I had nozzlers on my list of next things to replace, but it seem a little tricky. I downloaded the how-to PDF on nozzle swaping. I also something about balancing them too?

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I didn't have to pop test my injectors. The car runs great. It's been 40,000 miles since the tips were installed. I used a quality vendor and product with a brand name, Bosch. I've had dozen of friends with non-pop tested injector tip installs without difficulty. I don't discount the advantage of pop testing [the method to verify or calibrate equal calibration and spray pattern] rather I confirm that if you buy a good injector tip from a reliable source you'll reduce the exposure to such issues greatly.

As for looking into the issue with the oil smell, consider that you asked a question on these boards looking for an answer. We just ask that you perform a little homework before going any further in assumptions.

Cool.

Vag-com? Do you have vag-com?

turbocharged798 said:

BryanCT: Don't I have to get the injectors pop tested first? I had nozzlers on my list of next things to replace, but it seem a little tricky. I downloaded the how-to PDF on nozzle swaping. I also something about balancing them too?

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I upgraded nozzles twice and never had them pop-tested or balanced. Only a tiny fraction of nozzles are defective, but if you are unlucky enough to get one of them, you could get a fuel stream that melts the piston... and then you might need to replace the engine. So spending a little to get the nozzles balanced and pop-tested is a good idea and from now on I will recommend it to everyone.

Regarding the oil problem: check the lower intercooler pipe, down by the front passenger-side tire. If you take that clamp off and a lot of oil comes out of the intercooler, then you probably have either a turbo seal problem or a positive crankcase valve problem. If there is some oil but not a lot, then the oil loss might be a piston ring problem.

Report back on what you find, a quart of oil or only a little.

TornadoRed said:

Regarding the oil problem: check the lower intercooler pipe, down by the front passenger-side tire. If you take that clamp off and a lot of oil comes out of the intercooler, then you probably have either a turbo seal problem or a positive crankcase valve problem. If there is some oil but not a lot, then the oil loss might be a piston ring problem.

Report back on what you find, a quart of oil or only a little.

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+1

I hope it isn't an expensive fix.

Thanks for the info on the nozzle swap guys. I will probably just get some new nozzles and just put them right in.

I will report back when I get to working on the car. Hopefully sometime this weekend.

In theory, all other things remaining equal, pop pressures with new nozzles will remain the same as with old nozzles. This would hold true even if the new nozzle size is changed.

If the new nozzles have any differences in the other passage sizes or shapes, then there is a small chance that the pop pressures will change as a result, and in that case a balance to bring them all up to spec should be done.

If the new nozzles are a different orifice size than the originals, even if pop pressures are identical, since flow characteristics change you will want to make some adjustments to the IQ. This will require patience and careful observations with a VCDS.

If you are really really a-r, then you will send them off to be calibrated and cleaned and pop tested every other quarter. However, to those of us in the real world, it would not be money well spent.

The original oil loss problem sounds large. I agree that the turbocharger sounds like the most likely culprit. Are there any leaks evident? How are the oil supply lines?

Powder Hound said:

The original oil loss problem sounds large. I agree that the turbocharger sounds like the most likely culprit. Are there any leaks evident? How are the oil supply lines?

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I figured out that it was at least a quart of oil burned every 3000mi. That's wayyyyy above normal. It normally a quart every 7,000mi or so. There are no leaks that I know of. Oil supply lines were fine last time I checked. We replaced them when we replaced the turbo last time.

My dad wrote down that he replaced the turbo at 160,000 mi and switched from mobile 1 to rotella at 165,000.

I find it hard to believe that the turbo is blown after only 58,000 mi. Maybe we did something wrong installing it. I remember filling it with oil before putting the new oil lines on it. I dunno. I guess I will find out this weekend.

165,000 miles driven with the wrong oil, compression test should be very telling.

TC798,

What kind of turbo did you get as a replacement? Was it a factory OEM or was it some kind of rebuilt one ? Understand the rebuilt ones, if not done correctly, can fail at a higher rate.

Update! I tore apart the jetta this morning. Right off the bat, I noticed a lot of metal pieces around the acc. belt area. Turns out that the alternator clutch is shot and slinging metal everywhere.I think the metal also got into the alt. bearings and trashed them as well. Swaping in a used alternator for now. This should be unrelated to the oil issue though. I am just glad that I found it before the pully came off the alternator.

I took the boost pipes off and there is very little oil in them. Almost none. Turbo has no play in the shaft. The turbo is in PERFECT condition. This is both a good and bad thing. The good thing is that my $1,000 turbo is fine, the bad thing is the oil must be going somewhere else.

I am gonna get the alternator back in and see where I can get a diesel compression tester from.

Could it be the valves leaking oil?

I'd guess rings before valves, but I'm no expert. When you look for compression testing equipment, find stuff that can perform a leak-down test as well. That can give the more telling data when it comes to the possibillity of worn engine parts.

This looks good.
Read here too.

Another update, picked up a diesel compression tester from harbor freight for $25. It's actually pretty nice for the money. Comes with the correct adaptor for TDI's. Anyway, the readings were as follows:

Cyl.#1 was 520 p.s.i
Cyl.#2 was 530 p.s.i
Cyl.#3 was 560 p.s.i
Cyl.#4 was 500 p.s.i

Looks good to me. Actually seems really good for 210K miles. It's all within spec so I can rule out worn rings being the issue.

I am not sure where to go from here. The only thing that I can think of is the valve stem seals. Any thoughts?

Could be valve stem seals. I mean they used to go bad on old VW's. They're just little rubber rings. Maybe changing the type of oil effected the rubber. Kind of like when some people changed to ULSD and their fuel pumps started leaking.

turbocharged798 said:

Another update, picked up a diesel compression tester from harbor freight for $25. Any thoughts?

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Looks as if you're hitting every corridor in the trouble shooting range. Anyway to get an oil pressure reading, from idle to operating at normal speeds?

Do you notice any spikes or sudden acceleration issues when driving? After running vag-com have there ever been any faults like vacuum related? Have you ever pulled the valve cover, it does not need a gasket either, it's self sealing so you can pull it. The puck on top of the valve cover.. ever clean that out? I'm thinking crank case pressure is excessive at times and you're throwing it out the recirculating emissions system.

BrianCT

BrianCT said:

Looks as if you're hitting every corridor in the trouble shooting range. Anyway to get an oil pressure reading, from idle to operating at normal speeds?

Do you notice any spikes or sudden acceleration issues when driving? After running vag-com have there ever been any faults like vacuum related? Have you ever pulled the valve cover, it does not need a gasket either, it's self sealing so you can pull it. The puck on top of the valve cover.. ever clean that out? I'm thinking crank case pressure is excessive at times and you're throwing it out the recirculating emissions system.

BrianCT

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I could try to get an oil pressure reading. I just need to adapt to the metric thread. I have some regular 0-100psi guages that should work, but they have pipe thread on them, so like I said, I would need to figure out how to adapt it.

I did not notice any spikes while driving. No vacuum related codes were ever thrown.

I did notice that if I leave the oil fill cap on loose while the engine is idling, it jumps up and down on the valve cover.Last time we took the valve cover off was when we did the timing belt which was a while ago. I think pulling the valve cover is the next thing that I am gonna do. I have never cleaned out that black puck thingy. I will check it all out tomorrow.

It was really damp today and I noticed that when it was idling, it was leaving huge clouds of blue haze. I dunno if it is worn injector nozzles or oil burning.

turbocharged798 said:

It was really damp today and I noticed that when it was idling, it was leaving huge clouds of blue haze. I dunno if it is worn injector nozzles or oil burning.

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Before you have a real melt down, either kerma or tdiparts and buy a set of tips [Bosch] and put them on. These are what I used.

What about the injector bodies? Do they wear out?

tdiparts has the whole injector asy. for $500 a set.
http://http://www.tdiparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=29_115&products_id=1216

Would I be better off just buying new nozzles or spending the extra $250 and getting the whole thing? Something that I was wondering for a while now.

turbocharged798 said:

What about the injector bodies? Do they wear out?

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Tips, buy the tips and read the "How To" section on installation [no the bodies do not wear out] or throw a GTG in NY or drive down here and have us do it in Connecticut for you. LOL

Bring a fishing pole.

Whoa... I must have been lucky. My 2003 TDI Jetta manual trans I bought at 118,000 kms and drove it to almost 300,000 kms.

In 182,000 kms of driving and oil changes every 16,000 kms I only ever had to top off three times at a tenth of a litre of oil each time.

... that was until the turbo let go at 286,000 kms. Granted I had a diesel tuning box (doesn't increase boost mind you just timing and fuel) on the car for 150,000 kms and drove the sheite out of it.

BrianCT said:

Tips, buy the tips and read the "How To" section on installation [no the bodies do not wear out] or throw a GTG in NY or drive down here and have us do it in Connecticut for you. LOL

Bring a fishing pole.

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Already had the how-to downloaded to a CD for safe keeping. Sounds like it shouldn't be too hard. Just trying to decide what nozzles to buy. I did a search and I think I am more confused than before. LOL

Anyway, I pulled the valve cover off today and everything looked good. The breather was clear, the cam looked good, and it was pretty clean.

I am seriously thinking valve seals now. Dunno if it would be worth it to try to charge it. Maybe by the next TB I will pull the cam and take a look.

Hopefully I can order the nozzles within the next few days and get them installed by next weekend.

It still smells of oil when you start it then stomp on the throttle. It smells like a gasser burning oil. A little while after the startup, the smell goes away, but you can clearly still see a blue haze coming out of the exhaust.

turbocharged798 said:

A
It still smells of oil when you start it then stomp on the throttle. It smells like a gasser burning oil.

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This sounds really bad.

Your compression check came out good. Valves and rings are holding compression and there seems to be other areas that are seeping oil into the combustion chambre or the exhaust recirculating system.

Troublesome.

As long as it's not the turbo I would live with it until the timing belt change then try valve stem seals. The only other thing it could be is head gasket but I would think if that's leaking enough to cause oil smoke the compression test would have revealed it since air moves through leaks way easier than oil does.

OH I just read the last part of your last post. That is most likely valve stem seals. That is a classic scenario. The pooled oil in the head leaks past the valve stem seals into the cylinder when the car is off. When you start it it blows that out and all is cool until it has time to sit again.

Well.....went ahead and replaced the nozzles with sprint 520's. Car runs much smoother now. There is less smoke, but it is not gone. When you start it, there is still a blue haze coming from the exhaust until you really run it hard then it goes away.

Put on another approx. 1,000miles and it is approx half a quart of oil down.

I really don't know what to do here other than just drive it and see if it get worse.

turbocharged798 said:

Another update, picked up a diesel compression tester from harbor freight for $25. It's actually pretty nice for the money. Comes with the correct adaptor for TDI's. Anyway, the readings were as follows:

Cyl.#1 was 520 p.s.i
Cyl.#2 was 530 p.s.i
Cyl.#3 was 560 p.s.i
Cyl.#4 was 500 p.s.i

Looks good to me. Actually seems really good for 210K miles. It's all within spec so I can rule out worn rings being the issue.

I am not sure where to go from here. The only thing that I can think of is the valve stem seals. Any thoughts?

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Jammed compression rings #3, Coking will actually drive up the cylinder pressure and increase blow-by due to less than optimal sealing. The coking is like the old fashioned "Packing" they use to use for seals. It will seal up to a point but it will always leak and once it reaches a pressure threshold it dumps the pressure or fluid it is holding back.

On 5w40 and the ALH the maximum pressure is around 525 give or take. The AHU/1Z were around 550 again with a 5w40.

DB