09A slips on 2-3 shift. Shifts well otherwise. Where to start?

CameraJack · Feb 17, 2019

Hi All,

I have a 2002 PD130 estate with 100k miles on it and the 5 speed Tiptronic. Aside from a very slight lurch when you let off the brakes at a standstill, the gearbox operates pretty well. 1-2, 3-4, and 4-5 all shift fine - quick and crisp.

The main issue is a slight slip/flare as it shifts from 2nd to 3rd. Once in 3rd it pulls well. Solenoid N88 controls the shift from 2nd to 3rd, so I was going to replace this along with N89 and N92 as the three come together as a kit.

This kit requires me to order from the USA as automatic gearbox support for this vehicle is as good as nonexistent in the UK where I am.

Having done some more reading it seems like the high clutch/K3 clutch can also be responsible for this slipping. However that clutch is active in all high gears (3, 4, and 5) but my vehicle only slips going into 3.

If anyone has experience with these transmissions I'd really like some advice as to where I'm best spending my money to try and get this resolved. It's an old, cheap car but it has low miles and drives well so I don't really want to get rid of it if I can fix it for reasonable money.

Any advice is appreciated.

JDSwan87 · Feb 17, 2019

At a minimum, I would do a couple drain and refills with Idemitsu Type J ATF fluid. Drain, refill, drive for 10min and repeat.

CameraJack · Feb 17, 2019

JDSwan87 said:
At a minimum, I would do a couple drain and refills with Idemitsu Type J ATF fluid. Drain, refill, drive for 10min and repeat.

Interesting. There seems to be a lot of debate as to how much fluid exactly to put in. People have varying positive results from adding an extra 250-500mm over the max specified by VW. Also do you mean drain the 3-3.5 litres that sits in the drain pain or the whole lot which I believe is quite a few more litres?

That fluid looks to be a Nissan ATF, in what way is it better than the stuff VW specs? It also looks like it's not easily available for me to buy in the UK.

JDSwan87 · Feb 17, 2019

CameraJack said:
Interesting. There seems to be a lot of debate as to how much fluid exactly to put in. People have varying positive results from adding an extra 250-500mm over the max specified by VW. Also do you mean drain the 3-3.5 litres that sits in the drain pain or the whole lot which I believe is quite a few more litres?
That fluid looks to be a Nissan ATF, in what way is it better than the stuff VW specs? It also looks like it's not easily available for me to buy in the UK.

Drain and refill the 3-3.5L, twice. Put car level up on jacks, remove large drain plug, reinstall after drain, add fluid, get trans up to 90*C, remove small plug (this sets the level), reinstall, drive around 10 min and repeat.

Oilhammer, a well respected member here, suggested I use Idemitsu Type J ATF fluid instead of the crazy expensive VW fluid.

Nero Morg · Feb 17, 2019

Recently Valvoline started making ATF1 that has the VW rating on it. Did that to my 09a and it helped, but still need to go in and change the solenoids as it still doesn't want to do 1-2 upshifts.

Fluid is $7 a quart vs $23 a liter...

CameraJack · Feb 17, 2019

JDSwan87 said:
Drain and refill the 3-3.5L, twice. Put car level up on jacks, remove large drain plug, reinstall after drain, add fluid, get trans up to 90*C, remove small plug (this sets the level), reinstall, drive around 10 min and repeat.
Oilhammer, a well respected member here, suggested I use Idemitsu Type J ATF fluid instead of the crazy expensive VW fluid.

I'm familiar with the procedure from my research, and I have VagCom for monitoring the trans temps. ATF fluid selection is very limited in the UK as not many vehicles have auto boxes but I'm sure my local motor factors can track down some suitable compatible fluid for not silly money.

oilhammer · Feb 18, 2019

The 09A is not a Volkswagen transmission, it is made in Japan by Jatco, which was originally a joint venture between Nissan and Mazda (Japan Automatic Transmission Company, but Mazda no longer is involved.

Hence my recommendation of a Jatco suitable Japanese ATF, like Idemitsu or Eneos.

The OP should be able to find a suitable ATF even in the UK, as lots of cars use Jatco automatics, including some FWD Ford/Mazda/Jaguar models.

I doubt he 2-3 shift flare is the solenoid, it is more likely a sticking valve in the valve body is sticking or something is internally leaking. However, changing the ATF a couple times certainly would be worth trying.

"09A" is VAG's internal code for that transmission, but more broadly it is known as "JF506E".

CameraJack · Feb 19, 2019

Thanks for the interesting information! Just to add some more information - it shifts perfectly in Tip mode. Not even a hint of slip on 2-3 even under hard acceleration. Just a smooth, crisp, clean shift. Where does the split lie in the control systems between Tip and auto? Is it hydraulic or electrical?

oilhammer · Feb 19, 2019

If you want more info on this particular version of Jatco transmission as employed by Volkswagen, there is a .pdf floating around on the internet.

Just google "09A self study guide" and you'll find it. Lots of good information.

CameraJack · Feb 19, 2019

I've been browsing various PDFs and forum threads all afternoon. I found that switching to "JF506E blah blah blah" was netting me more relevent UK information than "09A blah blah blah".

I have since found a company that sells a "JF506E High and Reverse repair package" (piston, seals, high+reverse frictions, high + reverse steels, reverse pressure plate, and snap ring) for a very reasonable price since the high clutch slipping may well be my problem. All other shifts are on time and smooth. This is backed up by page 100/101 of this PDF:

https://shop.ukrtrans.biz/wp-content/uploads/catalogs/JF506E_UPDATE.pdf

It looks like Mazda will supply the parts for this high clutch rebuild as well if necessary. I'll be doing more research before trying a fluid change. It looks like most people with my specific problem have the best success rate with a high/reverse clutch rebuild.

I got thrown in the direction of the N88 solenoid when I was looking at 09A results because it's responsible for the 2-3 shift but when considering that that shifts is timely, simply slipping for a second or two, then I feel like the high clutch could be the culprit.

CameraJack · Feb 22, 2019

Small update on this, plus some more questions.

I've never owned an auto box before, and only driven them a handful of times so I don't have a great worth of experience as to how they drive.

After some more driving it feels like this:

Torque converter is always locked in 4th and 5th. Once the car has "selected" 3rd, torque converter is locked up in 3rd as well. I think I was mistaking normal torque converter action in third as "slipping", and thought that TC locked in 3rd was the transmission finally getting into 3rd gear after slipping.

I think I was babying the throttle to minimise the "slip" in third, which in turn made it take longer to lock the TC. If I give it a bit more throttle it'll happily accelerate through the "slip" and go into TC lock in 3rd nicely.

Is this normal TDI 09A behaviour? I thought the TC typically only locked up in 5th at higher speeds. It does produce some excellent acceleration in 3rd through 4th and 5th while locked.

If this is normal behaviour then the only real issue is that once warmed up (10-15 miles+) then the TC lock up in third is quite harsh. This is not present when cold. It's quite unpleasant when warm.

I will be changing the fluid tomorrow anyway as a matter of course.

Thanks for all the discussion so far - sincerely an ignorant Brit who's spent ten years driving only manual vehicles, both for personal use and commercially.

oilhammer · Feb 22, 2019

First, let me say that it is not just that I despise automatic transmissions, but I have to ask why on Earth anyone in your neck of the woods that has such a VASTLY superior selection of vehicles equipped with a proper manual transmission would even bother with something with only two pedals? Let alone a German car with a Japanese transmission (and a lot of these have a TCM that was made in Italy, of all places!).

That aside... you have it now, so may as well try and make the best of it.

First, many... MOST modern torque converter equipped automatics have a pretty aggressive use of lockup. They often do it in every gear but low, or maybe low and second. The 09A specifically I am not sure about, but I suspect 3, 4, and 5 would be my best guess. You can monitor this function (command ---> status) in the TCM's data via scan tool while you are driving. If the converter is or isn't doing what the TCM wants it to do, you'll have a DTC.

This transmission, again like most modern automatics, have a 'fuzzy logic' function (again, I urge you to read the entire self study guide if you haven't already). This means that shift mapping can vary, including but not limited to, lockup strategy. Sometimes this function causes more problems that it attempts to solve, and it becomes necessary to clear the TCM's learned values and start over. Some transmissions allow this sometimes unwanted feature to be switched off via coding. I am not sure the 09A allows for this, but it might. Some of the other automatics VAG uses do in some form allow for this.

The valve body on this transmission is often responsible for a lot of odd shift behavior. Sometimes a good thorough fluid change can help, sometimes solenoids (which come WITH a valve body) by themselves is needed, sometimes the ATF temp sensor is bad.

Also, the shift strategy is different when cold, and the ATF pressure regulation tries to control variations based on ATF temp. Thicker fluid means a harsher engagement, so it works to regulate this pressure when cold to lessen this. In extreme cold many automatics revert to 2nd gear starts, too, although I do not think the 09A does.

CameraJack · Feb 22, 2019

oilhammer said:
First, let me say that it is not just that I despise automatic transmissions, but I have to ask why on Earth anyone in your neck of the woods that has such a VASTLY superior selection of vehicles equipped with a proper manual transmission would even bother with something with only two pedals? Let alone a German car with a Japanese transmission (and a lot of these have a TCM that was made in Italy, of all places!).
That aside... you have it now, so may as well try and make the best of it.
First, many... MOST modern torque converter equipped automatics have a pretty aggressive use of lockup. They often do it in every gear but low, or maybe low and second. The 09A specifically I am not sure about, but I suspect 3, 4, and 5 would be my best guess. You can monitor this function (command ---> status) in the TCM's data via scan tool while you are driving. If the converter is or isn't doing what the TCM wants it to do, you'll have a DTC.
This transmission, again like most modern automatics, have a 'fuzzy logic' function (again, I urge you to read the entire self study guide if you haven't already). This means that shift mapping can vary, including but not limited to, lockup strategy. Sometimes this function causes more problems that it attempts to solve, and it becomes necessary to clear the TCM's learned values and start over. Some transmissions allow this sometimes unwanted feature to be switched off via coding. I am not sure the 09A allows for this, but it might. Some of the other automatics VAG uses do in some form allow for this.
The valve body on this transmission is often responsible for a lot of odd shift behavior. Sometimes a good thorough fluid change can help, sometimes solenoids (which come WITH a valve body) by themselves is needed, sometimes the ATF temp sensor is bad.
Also, the shift strategy is different when cold, and the ATF pressure regulation tries to control variations based on ATF temp. Thicker fluid means a harsher engagement, so it works to regulate this pressure when cold to lessen this. In extreme cold many automatics revert to 2nd gear starts, too, although I do not think the 09A does.

Thanks for the informations.

To answer the first bit - mk4s in decent shape, especially the wagon, are getting harder and harder to find for a decent price. I got this for a song considering it has less than 100k miles on it because of some minor issues that look bad to a non-VW person (wet driver's footwell, non-op driver's window, ****y central locking, glovebox won't close, etc). I fixed the central locking and glovebox for free, and the wet floor and inop driver's window fixed together for £25 for a new regulator, panel, and panel seal.

I have Vag-Com and scanned the car when I went to view it. No codes found at all.

I'll do two flushes to get most of the old crap out and see where it goes. I can probably make money on it considering the other work I've done if I do decide to punt it down the road.

compu_85 · Mar 1, 2019

Watching the torque converter clutch command while driving is interesting. I thought the converter was acting up on our V10... but nope, it was doing exactly what the computer was telling it to!

-J

BobnOH · Mar 1, 2019

I would scan the car again.

bmwM5power · Mar 5, 2020

Nero Morg said:
Recently Valvoline started making ATF1 that has the VW rating on it. Did that to my 09a and it helped, but still need to go in and change the solenoids as it still doesn't want to do 1-2 upshifts.

Fluid is $7 a quart vs $23 a liter...

which one exactly fluid is it?

09A slips on 2-3 shift. Shifts well otherwise. Where to start?

CameraJack

Well-known member

JDSwan87

Black Swamp Thing

CameraJack

Well-known member

JDSwan87

Black Swamp Thing

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg

CameraJack

Well-known member

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor

CameraJack

Well-known member

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor

CameraJack

Well-known member

CameraJack

Well-known member

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor

CameraJack

Well-known member

compu_85

Gadget Guy

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic

bmwM5power

Veteran Member