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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old February 15th, 2019, 18:51   #31
iamatt
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So what exactly is going on when the clutch is shuddering?

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Old February 15th, 2019, 19:30   #32
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"Wide open from lower RPM in 5th/6th is usually the main culprit."

Ie, don't lug it. Get an SMF and a Fluidampr. Torque is overpowering the DMF.
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Old February 16th, 2019, 07:29   #33
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I would find out if his particular 02Q has the newer steel synchros by looking them up by VIN before getting an SMF. Even with Fluidampr they will break at some point, might get lucky and make it 50k miles but to me that is not good enough.

Mercdude, you could try a Fluidampr to cure the shudder. It worked on my car with just stage 2 tune when I had stock clutch. Disappeared once installed. It's not a cheap part however.

Also, do you have any further plans with the car power wise?
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Old February 16th, 2019, 09:02   #34
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I had toyed with the idea of a turbo upgrade and a intercooler but realistically probably not. True to their word, the full kerma tune is a significant upgrade and I think everything else will have diminishing returns.

I am however probably going to install a wave trac ls because with the 6 speed itís very easy to light the tires in first and second and with rain itís hard to balance traction at all. So Iím very open to suggestions on clutch and dmf options, Iím just not quite ready to tear it apart yet.

Oh and this is my dd that I use for long distance commuting - 90miles a day.


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Old February 16th, 2019, 09:05   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adjat84th View Post

Mercdude, you could try a Fluidampr to cure the shudder. It worked on my car with just stage 2 tune when I had stock clutch. Disappeared once installed. It's not a cheap part however.

Huh... Iíve never heard of a fluidampr, can you describe and give links?


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Old February 16th, 2019, 09:27   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamatt View Post
So what exactly is going on when the clutch is shuddering?

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I was wondering this as well. I understand the culprit (lugging in higher gears) but what is actually happening in the dmf that makes it shudder?

Last edited by FarmerboyTdi; February 16th, 2019 at 09:28. Reason: Misspelling
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Old February 16th, 2019, 13:42   #37
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Here's the link for the Fluidampr;
https://fluidampr.com/how-a-fluidampr-works/?utm_term=fluidampr&utm_campaign=FD_Engine-Vibration_Jan2019&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=pp c&hsa_tgt=kwd-296819269120&hsa_grp=69403392612&hsa_src=g&hsa_net =adwords&hsa_mt=b&hsa_ver=3&hsa_ad=319761341219&hs a_acc=6571129234&hsa_kw=fluidampr&hsa_cam=16595509 34&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4Lqf6ZLB4AIVCorICh0yVAwbEAAYA SAAEgJCVfD_BwE


My take on the DMF is that it's s pair of spring loaded flywheels. The springs take out some of the diesel vibrations. It does work for
stock power applications.

After I upgraded my turbo and tune
on my now deceased Mk 6, it started to slip, particularly from low
revs, with WOT. Installed an SBC stage 2 End with SMF, this before Southbend came out with the spring loaded "silent clutch" plate.
It caused a lot of vibration through the drive train into the gearbox.
The "new and improved" six speed has cast steel synchros which are subject to fatigue. I didn't like the noise I was hearing, research
here on these forums and I found others with SMFs who were
losing their synchros. The installation of a Fluidampr helped
reduce the gear clatter.

On my 02J 5 speed the synchros are brass, not subject to the same
fatigue failure. I do have a Fluidampr on my current Mk4, I got
lucky and found one 1/2 price here on the forums. While not strictly
necessary for my 02J, it does reduce gear rattle, and smooths out the
power band. I also have an SBC2 End SMF on this car, pre spring loaded clutch plate. Any springs in the drive train/clutch path diminish response IMO. Depends how finicky a driver you are
essentially. If you're happy with a bit of mush in the power curve,
you're fine. Want a Buick, hey, go for it. Want instant "sportscar" response? Hmmm, don't know what's comparable these days, Porsche 911 perhaps?

You have to balance driveability vs comfort. The "what is handling" thread deals with suspension setups, the same can be said for engines/powertrains.

YMWV,
Your Mileage WILL Vary.
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Old February 16th, 2019, 15:56   #38
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What follows is a vast oversimplification. Fair warning

The purpose of DMF is to absorb/dampen torsional vibrations in the crankshaft. There are several sources of these vibrations. Can include a bad/weak CV joint or motor mount for example. But for purposes of this discussion, what we are going to call "shudder" is mainly the result of imbalances in the torque output between cylinders.

There are other "shudders" that are related to transitions between various preinjection states or regen, part/light throttle or other reasons like ABS or traction control, but the main concern here is the full throttle 1800-2000 rpm. Considerable effort has gone into ensuring that all the other "shudder" gremilns (that occur even in stock cars) are specifically addressed by and solved in the kerma tunes. But those are not the concern of this post.

For example, the "fix" cars will shudder worse than the "pre-fix" cars. The only change being a different ECU tune. That's because the "fix" cars, were reprogrammed to have less ability to compensate for these variations between cylinders. That is why the "fix" cars will tend to shudder more easily than the "pre-fix" cars. That's also why the ECU tune can be adjusted to allow a much higher torque threshold before the shudder happens. In fact, a much higher torque capacity can be realized than would otherwise be possible, by improving the ability of the ecu to adjust for imbalances between cylinders. Again, a vast oversimplification. This individual cylinder compensation is not on the radar of most tuners, as it is not an issue anywhere but in the USA- spec cars. But it does allow kerma CR tunes to achieve better results, that others will insist is "not possible".

Yes, it's easy to just keep the torque low, problem solved. But what fun is that?

Of course it's like anything else with cars. Some cars are more sensitive than others. Just like some ALH will slip the clutch with just a tune, and others won't. Tune can be adjusted to suit. Or the driver can just be aware to not matt the pedal at 1800 rpm/6th gear "drive around it".

With the 2015 cars, we send 2 tunes and the user can decide which one they prefer. The passats are most notable for this. (DSG tune largely takes care of it) Does not come up with the 2015 golfs/jettas as much.

With the Gen1, the shudder is usually not typically an issue, so when someone complains, we start looking at the mechanicals of the car first. This may not be what they want to hear, but after so many tunes out there, we know what to expect.

There's always the option to "adjust to suit", but that is not needed very often. There's a lot of time and effort that goes into development BEFORE the customer gets a tune, so they are vetted really well with months of in-house testing and living with it in the real world *before* release. And at this point there are a LOT of them out in the wild so there's a lot of customer experience as well. So if we make a recommendation of things to check, there's a pretty good chance that someone else has had the exact same problem that was fixed that way.

That said, I certainly don't know everything. Just give the guys a call they are always willing to listen. These ecu are very complex and we are constantly improving the product based on feedback.
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Old February 16th, 2019, 16:18   #39
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I don't see them listing a balancer for the 1.9 TDI
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Old February 16th, 2019, 16:44   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToxicDoc View Post
I don't see them listing a balancer for the 1.9 TDI

Give Issam a call here: http://iabedindustries.com/
Used to be a vendor on this site.
I think the right one for the ALH is Fluidampr #551201
You just change the crankshaft/alternator pulley.
15 minute job on a lift.
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Old February 16th, 2019, 17:01   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrusse11 View Post
Give Issam a call here: http://iabedindustries.com/
Used to be a vendor on this site.
I think the right one for the ALH is Fluidampr #551201
You just change the crankshaft/alternator pulley.
15 minute job on a lift.


Fluidampr doesnít list one for the cr tdi either....


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Old February 16th, 2019, 17:05   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMA View Post
What follows is a vast oversimplification. Fair warning



The purpose of DMF is to absorb/dampen torsional vibrations in the crankshaft. There are several sources of these vibrations. Can include a bad/weak CV joint or motor mount for example. But for purposes of this discussion, what we are going to call "shudder" is mainly the result of imbalances in the torque output between cylinders.



There are other "shudders" that are related to transitions between various preinjection states or regen, part/light throttle or other reasons like ABS or traction control, but the main concern here is the full throttle 1800-2000 rpm. Considerable effort has gone into ensuring that all the other "shudder" gremilns (that occur even in stock cars) are specifically addressed by and solved in the kerma tunes. But those are not the concern of this post.



For example, the "fix" cars will shudder worse than the "pre-fix" cars. The only change being a different ECU tune. That's because the "fix" cars, were reprogrammed to have less ability to compensate for these variations between cylinders. That is why the "fix" cars will tend to shudder more easily than the "pre-fix" cars. That's also why the ECU tune can be adjusted to allow a much higher torque threshold before the shudder happens. In fact, a much higher torque capacity can be realized than would otherwise be possible, by improving the ability of the ecu to adjust for imbalances between cylinders. Again, a vast oversimplification. This individual cylinder compensation is not on the radar of most tuners, as it is not an issue anywhere but in the USA- spec cars. But it does allow kerma CR tunes to achieve better results, that others will insist is "not possible".



Yes, it's easy to just keep the torque low, problem solved. But what fun is that?



Of course it's like anything else with cars. Some cars are more sensitive than others. Just like some ALH will slip the clutch with just a tune, and others won't. Tune can be adjusted to suit. Or the driver can just be aware to not matt the pedal at 1800 rpm/6th gear "drive around it".



With the 2015 cars, we send 2 tunes and the user can decide which one they prefer. The passats are most notable for this. (DSG tune largely takes care of it) Does not come up with the 2015 golfs/jettas as much.



With the Gen1, the shudder is usually not typically an issue, so when someone complains, we start looking at the mechanicals of the car first. This may not be what they want to hear, but after so many tunes out there, we know what to expect.



There's always the option to "adjust to suit", but that is not needed very often. There's a lot of time and effort that goes into development BEFORE the customer gets a tune, so they are vetted really well with months of in-house testing and living with it in the real world *before* release. And at this point there are a LOT of them out in the wild so there's a lot of customer experience as well. So if we make a recommendation of things to check, there's a pretty good chance that someone else has had the exact same problem that was fixed that way.



That said, I certainly don't know everything. Just give the guys a call they are always willing to listen. These ecu are very complex and we are constantly improving the product based on feedback.


You know tbh Iím not surprised thereís clutch/dmf issues with such an upgrade. Itís
not unexpected but a bit concerning when youíre apparently the first person to report these issues. Itís nice to know though that itís not a unique situation albeit not a common issue either.


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Old February 16th, 2019, 18:17   #43
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From the Fluidampr site on torsional vibration;

https://fluidampr.com/what-is-torsional-vibration/

Do your homework folks, and start asking the people who know.
Had one on my Mk6, and now on my Mk4.

As Kerma points out, in spite of CNC machining, each car is unique.
You can get your individual car ECU tuned, but that brings to mind
the adage, when the tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

The DMF is VWs answer to the vibration issue, the crankshaft pulley is also rubber filled as an additional damper.
Race car engines are blueprinted and balanced, ie matched up as
best as possible. Customised and expensive. But read the various articles on the Fluidampr site, it gets complicated!

Being a driver, NOT a mechanic, NOT an engineer, I've dealt with
vibration issues as simply and directly as possible. Smooth out the
power curve on a motor that has HIGH compression, and the resultant forces that go with it. All I can offer is that according
to my butt dyno, Fluidamprs have made a difference, for the better.

Cheers!
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Old February 16th, 2019, 20:11   #44
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I have the Malone Stage 2 tune as well as the DSG tune and in my 2015 Passat there is nothing happening out of the ordinary.
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Old February 18th, 2019, 09:10   #45
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FWIW, look for an alternative to the fluidampr to appear, very soon.
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