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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old April 21st, 2017, 01:18   #31
xjay1337
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Interesting ;-)

Maybe you can be the test goat for the Mk7 engine like I have been for the Mk6 lol
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Old April 27th, 2017, 11:12   #32
adjat84th
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Got three runs in today on a Dynapack. 82° w/ 42% humidity. HP seems a touch low, but this looks to be a good baseline. All runs were pretty consistent though the green one was operator error.


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Old April 27th, 2017, 11:16   #33
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are those the bone stock runs for comparison purposes? Or tuned
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Old April 27th, 2017, 11:38   #34
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I've been putting down around 132-138HP/230-240lb-ft stock with these cars on the dynapack, and around 172-178/285-302 tuned.

That includes competitor tunes, and our dyno is accurate.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 11:52   #35
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My apologies in advance to the OP, not meaning to take away from this cool build thread, but

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owain@malonetuning View Post
I've been putting down around 132-138HP/230-240lb-ft stock with these cars on the dynapack, and around 172-178/285-302 tuned.

That includes competitor tunes, and our dyno is accurate.
Of course, everyone's dyno is accurate. that's what everyone says

But that was not my question.

But since you brought it up, here's what your boss has to say about the subject anyways, which is kind if amazing he said anything at all becuase he seldom posts: Excepts from http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...91#post4997691 and emphasis is mine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark@MaloneTuning View Post
Exactly. A customer with a 90hp ALH TDI and VNT-20 turbo went on a Dyno Dynamics that reported 260whp (3 clean pulls on it) and then a Mustang Dyno 20 minutes away that reported 183whp (3 clean pulls).

None of the dynos are accurate and most people don't realize this. It's pointless to argue which dyno is more accurate - Mustang, Dyno Dynamics, Dynojet, Dynapack, Superflow, etc. These are all $50k-140k machines and not considered top of the line. Even if you use a top of the line dyno, you still run into issues like load, gearing, tires, suspension, wheel alignment, dyno fan, ambient temperature, etc. all of which affect output.

For example with a Stage 2 CR140, a dyno operater can skew results from 155whp to 185whp by simply changing the software configuration.
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark@MaloneTuning View Post
A few more things (sorry for being long-winded, but I'm pretty passionate about dynos ):

1. This is a good image that demonstrates the difference between accurate and precise:


None of the dynos are accurate, deal with it.

A precise/repeatable dyno is what you want. If you bring a car back to the same dyno 1 year later, you don't want to worry about numbers being skewed too much. Over time, a change in wheel alignment will actually change horsepower and torque readings. Hub dynos like Dynapack take tires, alignment, and suspension out of the equation and it has a reputation for being precise. It's one reason why I bought that type of dyno.

2. The same car should go on the same dyno to measure gains. Getting stock runs in before tuning is critically important. Doing at least 3 pulls on the dyno to ensure consistency is also critically important. If the car hops onto a different dyno or if you compare against another car with different dynos, then it's worthless.

3. You can't compare gains between two cars by horsepower and torque differences either, especially between 2 different dynos. Gains are more accurately measured with %. Here's a real-world CR140 Stage 2 dyno in Colorado at over 4,500 feet:

126whp stock -> 154whp tuned = 28whp gain (UNCORRECTED)
150whp stock -> 183.33whp tuned = 33.33whp gain (SAE CORRECTED)


That's just 1 dyno chart of the same car and same dyno run. The only change here is the correction. However, see this:

126whp stock -> 154whp tuned = 22% gain (UNCORRECTED)
150whp stock -> 183.33whp tuned = 22% gain (SAE CORRECTED)


The 22% gain from stock to tuned exactly the same.

So if you want to compare your car's gainst against another car on a different dyno, then using % is probably a little more accurate in some cases. Not really because there still are more variables. Also no one likes to publish their gains using % figures because that's just boring. It's cooler to say "200whp," "300whp," etc.

tl;dr Stick with one dyno to see your stock>tuned gains, preferably with high load and no correction, and don't compare against different dynos. If you want to compare two similar cars on the same dyno back-to-back in the same day (same ambient temps. etc.), just to see which car makes more power, then that usually works too.
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Last edited by KERMA; April 27th, 2017 at 11:59. Reason: resized and added apology
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Old April 27th, 2017, 12:17   #36
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Dynapacks are quite a lot different from dynojets, they are calibrated a certain way and considerably more accurate, we see the same values here that rawtek sees on theirs. Their values can typically be compared on different dynos, but of course all development/tune adjustments should be done on the same unit. You see a 0% correction factor there, and calibration adjustments require a dynapack representative to remote log in. I can put a car on the dyno 6 months later and know what it's going to make in advance, assuming parameters are the same. APR, integrated engineering, unitronic, revo, cobb etc all use these dynos for a lot of their development, and so do we. It's the standard for quality tuners.

I've run a lot of cars on it, especially stock ones, and they're right at advertised power in most cases. I posted my findings to compare to what he's seeing. The values I'm quoting are with a stock exhaust, so they should be a bit higher horsepower wise with deletes.

We both know you know this car has a stage 2 with deletes based off your slander here http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...5&postcount=38 where you posted 45 minutes prior about it.

So please, don't waste my time with this. Mark doesn't post here as he's very busy as is, as are the rest of us. I'll delete my post as soon as your remove yours, would appreciate if this stayed on topic.



Adjat, I'd also like to clarify something on the EGTs. EGT limiters are set from factory at 845C, and the maximum the ECU will allow you to raise them is 930. They are not bypassed and the output readings are not falsified on our tunes. The only case where the EGT sensor 1 reads incorrect is in an EA189 stage 3.5 tune, which requires a CR170 turbo with deletes, and the primary EGT sensor is relocated to the secondary position, then it reads post rather than pre readings. The primary probe is then to be used for an external EGT gauge, which is highly recommended.

The EA288 motor has a much better cooling system than the EA189. With the improvements in exhaust flow and decrease in back pressure the motor will run more efficiently, so no wonder you're seeing lower temps. We're fairly conservative on that tune but are on line with the competition. Feel free to email me with any questions.
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Last edited by Owain@malonetuning; April 27th, 2017 at 12:56.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 12:53   #37
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Awesome build thread! Another late 2015 adopter here.

Had lots of VW's in my life, first TDI. Very excited to see what you do here as i am battling the mod bug every day haha.

Also getting used to the tuner pissing contest that seems to pop up in every single thread lol.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 13:12   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adjat84th View Post
Got three runs in today on a Dynapack. 82° w/ 42% humidity. HP seems a touch low, but this looks to be a good baseline. All runs were pretty consistent.

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Nice. I'm about to get dyno' d at a local diesel shop with a mustang dyno. They call the mustang dynos "the heartbreaker", so I don't expect bragging rights. Should be a good baseline though.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 13:45   #39
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I appreciate the feedback and don't mind tuners having input where needed as long as it stays cordial. Both Charlie and Owain regularly post helpful info on the forums and that's very much appreciated.
Owain, thanks for commenting on the EGT differences from EA189 to EA288, and specifying what can be done in those regards. I'm aware of dyno differences and am not deterred by the results being different than what is advertised. Just happy to have a starting point for when the new turbo gets here.

Turbobrick, sure will be interested in your results on a mustang dyno. I was happy to have found a Dynapack close by!

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Old April 27th, 2017, 17:19   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xjay1337 View Post
I'm not sure, but that would be good if it is. Haven't seen a Mk7 head.
I'd love to put an LSD but our exchange rate is awful and has pushed the price up of them.
Plus I get major wheelhop in 2nd and 3rd, and I worry with a diff it will make it worse.

Water injection would be good in your case to keep EGT down, doesn't need mapping in as such , decent map will have EGT protection written in
That pic makes me angry/sad that VOA doesn't see fit to bring the Scirocco here. That is a beautiful car!
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Old April 30th, 2017, 10:27   #41
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Yes, I would get DMF shudder under 2k RPM when in 5th-6th after the tune. However, installing the Fluidampr (when I was still on stock DMF) in my scenario eliminated that shudder, though I doubt it would keep it gone once power started climbing more.

I do not have stock exhaust EGT numbers, and the one run I've logged more recently was not long enough to produce anything above 400C (was logging the wrong sensor!). I also failed to bring my laptop with me to the dyno, as I was going to grab a couple logs there. I would love for auto-polar to hurry up with their MQB update so the polar fis+ I purchased in September could be used. I would much prefer that than my laptop just for normal day to day driving.
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Old April 30th, 2017, 12:42   #42
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400c is 750F which is a typical highway cruising temperature. Maybe 40-45% throttle and just loafing along at 2300 rpm or so and 80 mph in 6th gear.

A full throttle pull would be most useful, starting from a dead stop then shift at 4200+ rpm each time thru 4th gear if it's safe to go that fast. If you can do it under load on the dyno or uphill would be ideal. I was able to get a tick under 800C in our bone stock GSW on the road under what I would consider abusive conditions on a hot summer day.

Just as a point of reference, lately when I tune those EA288 we have zero egt limiters or shudder, even at 220hp to the wheels. No other mods, just a tune.
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Old May 1st, 2017, 10:43   #43
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400C is pretty low in effect, probably the wrong sensor.

Linéarisation is set to 1000°C, it need to be unlocked for VCDS to show more than 930°C, once done I've seen some tune to hit 1000°C before to regulate, which is not good.

If it's a delete tune, it should be more in the 190hp range and not falling off at 3500rpm, of course the whole injection strategy need to be reworked to keep EGT in range.

There is some way to avoid shudder in 4, 5, 6th gear while keeping full torque for 1, 2 & 3.

If you need more info, PM me, I'll explain you some things.
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Old May 1st, 2017, 11:34   #44
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Flywheel shudder is no problem here as it's been cured with the install of a single mass unit, and it's fantastic! Feels more lively on tip-in.
And, even with an upgraded downpipe, this small stock turbo still hits the limiter about 4500rpm on a hot day..it cannot move the air fast enough. You can feel the torque being limited and then come back after temps go down briefly.

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Old May 1st, 2017, 13:48   #45
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I wonder if a fmic would help lower egt' s. Do you have any turbos in mind for an upgrade? I've been hearing great things about the gtd1752.
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