Rotella T6 in a PD engine?

Gotrek

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It's an extra cost that you don't really need. I do it because it's benefits and I already use it in my muscle cars. That's probably why he said that.

T6 is high in zinc already (but not as high as it used to be)

Another oil which is high in zinc is Castrol for muscle cars 5w50 but not sure how it would do in a diesel with the soot.
 

romad

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Why ?



Flat-Tappet Cams
The design of flat-tappet cams makes them especially vulnerable to wear.
As the name indicates, the tappet – or lifter – is flat.
During operation the surface of the cam lobe slides rapidly over the surface of the tappet, producing high friction and temperatures.
The camshaft and lifters are responsible for triggering the precisely tuned movements of the valvetrain.
Without the protective film barrier provided by ZDDP, the cams and lifters wear from the force of operation, negatively affecting cam and valve operation.


How ZDDP Works
As temperatures rise and surfaces come closer together, ZDDP decomposes, and the resulting chemistry protects critical metal surfaces.
When parts move during operation, any sliding or rolling motion takes place on top of or within the ZDDP anti-wear film, which reduces metal-to-metal contact.
This is especially important in engines with flat-tappet camshafts, which puts more stress on the engine.
High-tension valve springs, often used in racing applications, also increase the potential for cam wear and require additional ZDDP.
You sound like a shill for an additive manufacturer! :D

BTW, are you aware that ZDDP is toxic to both aquatic wildlife and catalytic converters? I'll stay with Rotella T6 and away from additives to lessen exposure.
 
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Gotrek

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There is zddp in all diesel oils and motor oils though. You need it. The fact that it's been reduced so much is causing all sorts of problems (and not just in TDI's). It's just not really needed with T6 since it has a lot already (1264ppm). Excessive zinc can damage cats but zinc is consumed as part of the process so topping up with zddp doesn't give you excess. It's more like a replenishment therapy between oil changes.

But I agree it's not really needed. I just do it because I have it for other purposes.

505.1 spec calls for ~1200 ppm zinc.
 
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turbobrick240

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It's an extra cost that you. on't really need. I do it because it's benefits and I already use it in my muscle cars. That's probably why he said that.

T6 is high in zinc already (but not as high as it used to be)

Another oil which is high in zinc is Castrol for muscle cars 5w50 but not sure how it would do in a diesel with the soot.
Correct. That is precisely what I meant and why. The T6 already has a pretty healthy (or unhealthy) dose of zddp.
 

2stroke

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You sound like a shill for an additive manufacturer! :D
On the contrary, I have never used oil additives in my TDI engines,
but I have seen and know how sensitive PD engines are to choose one for them designed oil.

One can not compare the PD engines with any other type of Diesel engine because of the extreme pressure applied between the parts in the cylinder head.

That is why choosing the right oil is so important.
 
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2stroke

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These pictures shows the area of the PD engine why special specification oil is required.


Picture # 1.
White arrow points to the pump injector that generates around 29,000 Psi.
Green arrow shows the special lobe on the camshaft.
Yellow arrow points to the roller on the rocker arm that runs against the special cam lobe.
Red arrows point to the normal exhaust and intake lobes on the camshaft for cylinder #1.
Purple arrow notes the rocker shaft that the rocker arms pivot on.




Picture # 2.
Green arrow shows the special lobe on the camshaft.
Yellow arrow points to the roller on the rocker arm.
Red arrows point to the normal exhaust and intake lobes on the camshaft ( Same as the first picture).
Blue arrow points to the contact area where the oil is extremely stressed, and is most of the reason why the VW 505.01 spec is required.
 
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Windex

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Granted that the PD unit injectors develop some pretty high pressures, and that is coming from the middle cam lobe, but the weak point on the PD cam is not there, it is on the exhaust lobe - one which is no more stressed in terms of pressure than any other OHC cam. While opinions differ on the root cause, all agree that the lobe for the PD injector is not the issue in this design.
 

Dimitri16V

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DE
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01 Golf, 04 Golf
These pictures shows the area of the PD engine why special specification oil is required.


Picture # 1.
White arrow points to the pump injector that generates around 29,000 Psi.
Green arrow shows the special lobe on the camshaft.
Yellow arrow points to the roller on the rocker arm that runs against the special cam lobe.
Red arrows point to the normal exhaust and intake lobes on the camshaft for cylinder #1.
Purple arrow notes the rocker shaft that the rocker arms pivot on.




Picture # 2.
Green arrow shows the special lobe on the camshaft.
Yellow arrow points to the roller on the rocker arm.
Red arrows point to the normal exhaust and intake lobes on the camshaft ( Same as the first picture).
Blue arrow points to the contact area where the oil is extremely stressed, and is most of the reason why the VW 505.01 spec is required.

Sorry to burst your bubble , 505.01 has nothing to do with "extreme pressure " areas

The lifters overheat especially the exhaust ones . Coupled with the offset between lifter center and cam lobe , it explains the PD lifter issues .
I don't think the exhaust valves are sodium filled on the VW diesels unlike the gas ones
 

2stroke

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2.0 TDI PD
The weak point on the PD camshaft is on the exhaust lobe - one which is no more stressed in terms of pressure than any other OHC cam.
Opinions differ on the root cause.
I agree.
VW made the exhaust and inlet lobes thinner to allow the center roller lobe to reach desired width.
That caused more force to act on the exhaust lobes coupled with heat made them prone to wear.
I agree.
The lifters overheat especially the exhaust ones.
Coupled with the offset between lifter center and cam lobe, it explains the PD lifter issues.
I agree.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote: ( from www.myturbodiesel.com )


A common problem in VW/Audi with TDI PD ( Pumpe Düse ) engines are worn camshaft lobes, lifters (camshaft followers), and bearings.

The major difference between VW/Audi TDI PD engines and other TDI engines is the unit fuel injectors which are actuated by the camshaft.
Because there's limited space on the cylinder head, PD engines sacrificed valve lobe width to fit the extra lobe for the fuel injector rockers.

VW recommends engine oil VW spec 505.01 for PD engines but if it was only an engine oil problem it doesn't explain why there isn't even wear across all lobes and why some engines are not affected.
Camshaft wear is an issue in both North America and Europe.
5w-40 oil should provide more protection than 5w-30 and it can slow,
but not repair engine wear.

The exact reason for excess wear is unknown but contributing factors could be manufacturing defects, poor design, thin engine oil, insufficient oiling at the bearing, incorrect specification oil used, or other factors.
Some believe that even using the recommended specification engine oil won't help because of to low ZDDP content in modern engine oils.
It's unknown if this makes a significant difference over the long term.
Regardless of the exact cause, the fact is that symptoms usually aren't noticeable until the car is out of warranty.
If the car is under warranty, this is definitely something that should be covered.

Editorial speculation:
It appears that #1 and 4 intake lobes are more likely to wear first.
The rockers don't go all the way to the end of the cap and when combined with other factors such as insufficient oiling, slight warping could be a contributing factor to camshaft lobe wear.
This is just a guess and I am not a professional mechanic or engineer - it also doesn't explain why only some engines get wear.
There are modifications to the bearing cap that will increase oiling and might reduce wear (not just because of more lubrication but because oil takes away heat) but it hasn't been tested over the long term.
Bearing caps are matched to the head and are not interchangeable.
There are also the option of performance camshafts from
www.KermaTDI.com
Any non factory modification is done at your own risk!

VW installed a mix of black nitrided hardened lifters and silver color non nitrided lifters across model years.
VW probably recognized there was a problem and changed the lifters.
As far as I'm aware, all Golf-4 with PD engines came with silver lifters.
Early Golf-5 came with silver and then half silver/half black lifters because I'm guessing they wanted to save money and use the older ones or get by with minimal changes.
All replacement lifters should be black.
PD cylinder heads share many parts but the BEW engine has a shorter lobe and shorter duration vs. the BRM and BHW.
This means decreased contact time, a better oil film, and in theory, less chance of camshaft wear.
While any SOHC PD camshaft will fit any SOHC PD head, using the wrong camshaft will change 2 major engine operations:
How long the valves are open and how the fuel injector rockers press the fuel injector.
Both/either may result in sluggish engine response.

The self-adjusting hydraulic lifter has ports to keep it filled with engine oil and a "button" that the valve stem presses on.
A basic inspection of the hydraulic lifter requires the valve cover to be removed and the camshaft rotated to examine the lobes and lifters.
This should tell you right away if there is lobe wear.
A through inspection requires the timing belt to be removed so that the camshaft can be removed to inspect the camshaft bearings.
If you have a PD engine and are planning to do the timing belt soon,
I suggest doing a basic camshaft inspection beforehand so that all parts are ready and there's no extra car down time.

TDI PD engine oil
PD
( Pumpe Düse )
engines and their engine oils will work on earlier TDI engines but not vice versa.
PD oil isn't better for an engine which doesn't require it.
These oils are generally more expensive and harder to find than non PD approved oils.
PD certified
engine oil must meet VW oil standards: 505.01 or 506.01 or 507.00

NOTE:
DPF equipped PD engines…
All PD engines that have DPF ( Diesel Particle Filter) should only use VW 507.00 spec engine oil.
An ultra low ash engine oil to maximize the DPF lifespan.
Using poor quality fuel or anything else that leaves excess ash will cause the DPF to fill up.
The DPF can only burn out trapped soot - ash stays until the DPF is removed and cleaned.



Camshaft wear issues:
Despite
using VW's oil, many PD engines have had excess camshaft wear.
Suspected causes are: incorrect engine oil (even when serviced at the VW dealership), dirty engine oil, soft camshaft lobes (defective construction), narrow lobes vs. older engines (bad design), high pressures on the camshaft lobes (needed in PD engines), unknown causes, or a combination of all or some of these.
In any case, the only engine oil which will qualify for engine warranty coverage is the oil that is approved by VW.

Some camshafts have experienced excess wear even with PD engine oil. Ultimately it's up to you to determine what brand/weight/spec engine oil you want to use.
I suggest using heavier weight 5w-40 vs. 5w-30.
This will slightly decrease fuel economy to a tiny degree but it's just better at protecting camshafts.


 
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OlyTDI

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Just had my TB done yesterday. 144K miles and the cam is in excellent shape.

I always use either Rotella T6 or Mobil TDT 5/40 and a half a bottle of ZDDP at oil change and another half at 10K miles.

I do 20K OC intervals and always have stellar analyses by Blackstone. I do have a bypass, however.
 

pkhoury

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Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
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2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
Just had my TB done yesterday. 144K miles and the cam is in excellent shape.

I always use either Rotella T6 or Mobil TDT 5/40 and a half a bottle of ZDDP at oil change and another half at 10K miles.

I do 20K OC intervals and always have stellar analyses by Blackstone. I do have a bypass, however.
Where does one get ZDDP? I might start doing the same myself. Not sure if Walmart carries it, or one of the national auto parts chains?
 

Gotrek

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EDIT STP apparently no longer makes one with "high zinc levels" (have to remember they removed zinc from oils because it damages catalytic converters in gas and diesel engines. But if you are catless and you run long intervals between oil changes, no harm in replacing lost zddp (it's a consumable))


Rislone also makes one now



And Hyper Lube has one



those are the ones I can think of off hand.

Rotella T6 already has 1200-1300ppm

 
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JohnnyCanuck.Comox

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Comox B.C. Vancouver Island
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Sooo, being a new owner of an '04 golf tdi, I want to ensure I'm using the correct oil, especially given the cam issue. T6 5w40 is a great oil, most of us use it on our Subaru turbo 2.0's with great success, and it looks like it's the consensus of most of the people here that it's a great oil for the TDI. Glad I found this thread, thanks for the info.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
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2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
Sooo, being a new owner of an '04 golf tdi, I want to ensure I'm using the correct oil, especially given the cam issue. T6 5w40 is a great oil, most of us use it on our Subaru turbo 2.0's with great success, and it looks like it's the consensus of most of the people here that it's a great oil for the TDI. Glad I found this thread, thanks for the info.
I originally put this thread up, because like you, I too am the new owner of a 2004 Golf. Well, new as of the end of April of this year (2016). I've already managed to rack up 29K on this car so far, of 3 oil changes used T6 - the first one, at 204K when I bought it, because the PO put in some kind of 5W30; 210K was Motul I believe, and 220K and 230K were T6.

Make sure you check your oil level around 4-6K between change intervals. I've found that my car has needed some more oil put in. Part of that could be due to the fact that it's tuned, and I do have fun with my cars.
 

turbovan+tdi

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romad

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So does anyone use Mobil ESP Diesel oil? Or 0W40 vs 5W40? (It gets cold here in Saskatchewan, -36*c so far this year)
This has been discussed ad nauseum here. ONCE you are out of warranty, it isn't critical to use VW spec 505.01 oil as long as it is an xW40 weight; xW30 has proven to faster cam wear. The TWO MOST used common alternatives are:

Shell Rotella T6 5W40 (API: CK-4, CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4; ACEA E9 and
Mobile 1 TDT 5W40 (API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4/ SM, SL, SJ; ACEA E7 Issue 2)

Shell Rotella T6 0W40 should be just fine in Saskatchewan winters; summers I'd consider the 5W40.

As always though, YMMV.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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Mine: 2019 Golf R DSG, Wife's: 2015 Golf Comfortline TDI
So does anyone use Mobil ESP Diesel oil? Or 0W40 vs 5W40? (It gets cold here in Saskatchewan, -36*c so far this year)
The main reason I stick with Rotella T6 5W40 is because it comes in a 5L jug for $47 at Ukrainian Tire, while the Mobil TDT is only a 3.8L (1 gallon) jug for about the same price.

The Mobil ESP costs $16.95 / liter, so that's out of the question.
 

turbobrick240

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The Rotella, Delo, and TDT 5w-40 all come in gallon jugs at my local wally world. They just started stocking quarts of the rotella and delo. There are also 5qt jugs of mobil1, castrol, and Pennzoil 0w-40.
 

tikal

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Also, if interested, you can compare the specs of the VW 505.01 oil vs the VW 507 here:

Afton Specification Handbook

Specifically on slide # 149 you will see that the 507 oil is subject to an RNT (radionuclide wear testing) almost three times longer (650 vs. 250 hours) which is relevant to the sensitive wear of the PD camshafts. Here is a post that explains further about the RNT test:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1497584

There is a reason the 507 oil is much more expensive has it has to have a balance mix of group III, IV/PAO, V/Ester oils. (see also post # 16 here http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/best-oil-for-2-0-tdi-cr-engine.276227/#post-2752728).
 
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