slow, dumb, cheap compound setup!

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Eh, 'bout the same as it did before. 3k rpm in third and the tires break loose
On the previous setup I had it requesting next to no boost below 2k RPM because the DMF was bottoming out its springs. Had set up the torque limiter to that end, and figured why move the air if there isn't the fuel. Might have to finish up the twin disc and dump it in... Got a 2.0 gas trans I've been thinking about sneaking a 2.70:1 ish ratio final drive into, but that isn't progressing too quick. Then there's the compression release brake I've got halfway done that will need me to do some lathe work on the camshaft (so it isn't likely to be implemented)... Lot of projects, trouble getting any one of them done.

I don't really get people saying stuff needs to spool early to be street driveable, you can get probably 60hp out of them completely N/A, plenty for putting around town, if you want more, just shift in the powerband.
You don't want a 2.0L trans, the gear ratio is going the wrong way. The R&P is a higher number than a TDI, so you'll be worse off than you are now. :(

Edit, unless you mean a 2.0L CR then that could be different, :p
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Might wanna reread that sentence, the 2.0 gas trans has a little tighter ratio spread, but a 4.24 final drive to the tdi's 3.39 final drive, with something closer to a 2.70 it'll be proper
 

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Might wanna reread that sentence, the 2.0 gas trans has a little tighter ratio spread, but a 4.24 final drive to the tdi's 3.39 final drive, with something closer to a 2.70 it'll be proper
I read it as it had a 2.70 final drive but thank's for clearing that up, ;)
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Was running into limp mode at 30 PSI, deleted the code from the computer, it'd still kill power, but then it'd come back 3 seconds later, removed the influence of a lot of boost limit maps, still does it.
Just remembered I never raised the diagnostic limit on the MAP sensor. Whoops. Done that, gonna reflash tomorrow, pretty confident it'll fix it. If it doesn't I'll be unhappy at the computer again and probably throw things around while making a fool of myself.

Anyways, took some time and did some looking at the gauges while brake boosting. The TD04 is making 12 PSI, so that actuator I thought would be too strong turned out okay. The interstage WG opens around 20 PSI with no pressure atop the diaphragm (referenced to interstage boost), so that'll keep the pressure ratio reasonable if the atmospheric turbo takes a dump. It'll do 1:1 EMP:IMP at 15 PSI, didn't try any other pressures as the brakes were prolly getting real hot. :p Want to see if there's a sweet spot where the intake pressure's higher than the exhaust, just because I think that kinda ****'s really neat.

With pressure ratios of 2.8 and 2.3 (still within the respective maps) I could get 80ish PSI in the intake. It won't actually do that, but we'll see what it will do. Definitely don't have the fuel to get that kind of boost, and the mass flow of the engine would probably exceed what this setup is capable of.
Got a 0-100 PSI transducer coming in the mail in case the 4 bar sensor I've got isn't quite enough.

Then it is back to the fuel side again. I can get #78 (.016", .40mm) drills in carbide for dirt cheap, and I've got a set of stock nozzles with far more miles on them than any sensible person would pay money for. Can make up some jigs to hold the nozzles in a sensitive drill press at the correct angle for each hole. Thinking on melting my nice expensive pistons trying to save a buck on injectors. :p
Who knows maybe it'll work out okay.
Then there's the 12mm pump head still on the shelf likely to go in at the same time so I only have to perfect the P/V map once (with ten or twelve reflashes).

Lots of talking to myself. Maybe someone'll get a kick out of it.
 

Alcaid

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2006
Location
Norway
TDI
See signature
Drilling your own nozzles... Please don't :p

With a PR of 2.8 and 2.3 you wouldn't be within the maps at all, you would be far out right outside the choke lines and overspooling both turbos while setting an EMP world record ;)
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
I would just give it a go, just need to find a good way to deburr the inside without screwing the needle seat surace/bore

if spray pattern looks halfway ok in pop tester its just a matter of luck that they are roughly same flow
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
I would just give it a go, just need to find a good way to deburr the inside without screwing the needle seat surace/bore

if spray pattern looks halfway ok in pop tester its just a matter of luck that they are roughly same flow
Enough RPMs and a slow enough feedrate would hopefully make for a small enough burr that it would just blow out in time. Figure when they were just starting with multi-hole nozzles they probably didn't have EDM hole poppers yet.
Better than my previous idea on using stock 12v cummins b-series injector nozzles. Their inclination in the head is 25 degrees, where ours are 15, their spray cone is 145 deg (155 on marine injectors) and ours is 150, so that'd be close enough, but the inclination difference is too great for comfort, the bowl would get fuel too close to the point in the center.
def would go in the scrap bin if they didn't pop nicely, and I've got ideas on a dirt simple flow balancing setup
With my luck I'll find a deal on a set of bigass nozzles just as I'm midway through the project.
With a PR of 2.8 and 2.3 you wouldn't be within the maps at all, you would be far out right outside the choke lines and overspooling both turbos while setting an EMP world record ;)
Yeah, kinda figured that what with how big everyone else's turbos are. I think jfettig's setup's probably the closest one I've seen on here, and he's running a TD06 atmospheric.
My guess is that I'll end up around 45-50 PSI IMP before EMP starts going nuts.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
On second thought, I've got a set of PP764s in there already, my main worry is that they won't flow enough to go to the 12mm pump head.
IIRC that's what much of the high failure rate was traced back to on those, guys running them with too small of injectors and getting too high of injection pressures for the pump drive bits.

ETA: Raising the diagnostic limit on the MAP value didn't work out. Just displayed 2601 (no unit) in vag com, and 24xx for the atmospheric reading. Gonna go about it in a different way, by editing the linearization of the sensor to top out at 2500 mbar the computer might be able to ignore the overboost with all the overboost maps set around 3900mbar, and the diagnostic limit at 2601mbar... We'll see what happens. Fueling is MAF based, so I think the computer's only really using the MAP signal for turbocharger vane control which is no longer relevant past 18 PSI.

ETA2: turns out I'm an idiot. None of this was boost related, but instead my pump voltage map calling for more than 4.5V at the QA. Guess the ECU doesn't like that, and it also looks like that means I'm out of fuel once again. rofl
 
Last edited:

mk1-83

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
Pp764 are tiny nozzles for 12mm pump. Go at least race520 And bigger like hflox .341
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
On second thought, I've got a set of PP764s in there already, my main worry is that they won't flow enough to go to the 12mm pump head.
IIRC that's what much of the high failure rate was traced back to on those, guys running them with too small of injectors and getting too high of injection pressures for the pump drive bits.

ETA: Raising the diagnostic limit on the MAP value didn't work out. Just displayed 2601 (no unit) in vag com, and 24xx for the atmospheric reading. Gonna go about it in a different way, by editing the linearization of the sensor to top out at 2500 mbar the computer might be able to ignore the overboost with all the overboost maps set around 3900mbar, and the diagnostic limit at 2601mbar... We'll see what happens. Fueling is MAF based, so I think the computer's only really using the MAP signal for turbocharger vane control which is no longer relevant past 18 PSI.

ETA2: turns out I'm an idiot. None of this was boost related, but instead my pump voltage map calling for more than 4.5V at the QA. Guess the ECU doesn't like that, and it also looks like that means I'm out of fuel once again. rofl
what are you actually trying to accomplish? 24xx for atmospheric rason tells me there is something that could work better in you attempt to i guess linearize a 4 bar or great map sensor?
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
I was flailing blindly at the problem thinking it was the computer not liking the MAP sensor data
I have now realized that it was the computer not liking the N146 data. My pump voltage map was figured out without the knowledge of the factor of 1.22, so it was requesting more voltage than it could supply in the upper right of the map.
In short, I'm an idiot. :eek:

An idiot whose injection pump is supplying as much fuel as the hard parts are capable of. :D
Pp764 are tiny nozzles for 12mm pump. Go at least race520 And bigger like hflox .341
Dang, was hoping that I could save some time/money/effort, but the gut instinct of them being far too small rings true.

Thanks everyone for continuing to help out.
 
Last edited:

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
find the .4mm drill. =) how can u get bora pressure to 2400? seems strange no, or die you modify the wrong linearisation?
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
find the .4mm drill. =) how can u get bora pressure to 2400? seems strange no, or die you modify the wrong linearisation?
Bora pressure?

The 2200 mbar thing is peak boost request, it is real low on purpose so that the high pressure VNT turbo doesn't spool up faster than the atmospheric turbo can keep up with. So, it brings the boost up to a responsible level for a single turbo setup, and the HP wastegate keeps any boost spikes or creep in check until the atmospheric turbo wakes up. Once interstage boost comes up it puts pressure atop the HP wastegate diaphragm and raises the pressure it opens at by around 1:1. Meaning the HP wastegate opens at 20 PSI with no interstage boost, but with 10 PSI of interstage boost the HP wastegate opens at 30 PSI or so.

Anything over 2200mbar absolute the vanes are fully wide open as far as they can go and the HP turbo is just a stupid tractor reliable wastegated turbo along for the ride. I put in a larger diameter vane ring travel stop pin to keep the vanes out of contact with the turbine blades.


ETA: never mind, the atmospheric reading was from a botched attempt at raising the diagnostic limit of the MAP sensor so it would read over 2601 mbar. The only guide I found had more "figure it out on your own" than "this is what you change and why"
 
Last edited:

benhart16

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Location
Seattle, WA
TDI
2000 Jetta tdi
I read some cummins guys were machining their own nozzles blanks, then sending them off to get them EDMed; the cost was like $70-$80/nozzle. I'd be trying to find an EDM shop if it were me. They could probably just enlarge stock nozzles. On the other hand, I did read an article where they flow tested 3 different sets of aftermarket nozzles, and one set was purchased from the infamous peddler of Chinese crap. These Chinese nozzles were drilled, and they showed magnified pics, and you could clearly see the finish was a lot courser. Anyway, when they tested the drilled nozzles, the flow variation was the worst, but not as bad as the testers feared. All this to say, is if you have like 6-8 nozzles to drill, you could probably get 4 that flowed close enough to work.
 

benhart16

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Location
Seattle, WA
TDI
2000 Jetta tdi
Well, I just did a quick search, and there are shops advertising to enlarge injectiors via EDM. I'd do a little research, as some shops tend to be far better than others.
 

mk1-83

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
Nice im in to make a set nozzles 2 !, like a 6 hole .275 nozzle where can let them made
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
Edm is not hard, take a precise axial device, like a drill press or similar. And then make a fixture under correct angle and use a angle disc

Make a current device and put a feed on it. Then you only need the plunge of correct diameter.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Ordered the drill bits.

I've thought of doing the DIY EDM thing, but don't feel like investing the time. The way I'd do it is a lot like an electropencil engraver, where there is a coil that lifts the electrode, and is wired in series with the electrode so that it sparks and pulls itself back, then returns under spring tension to happen again. Use kerosene under pressure to wash the 'chips' out.

But once again, too much time investment. Pretty sure I can get a reasonable surface finish with the drill. Flow balancing is easy enough once you get set up to test the relative flow rate of them.
 

Digital Corpus

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
I will be sad if you destroy a TDI engine with this, but I'm grabbing popcorn to see how long it lasts. Though you'll be flow testing, make sure you check the spray pattern too.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
I will be sad if you destroy a TDI engine with this, but I'm grabbing popcorn to see how long it lasts. Though you'll be flow testing, make sure you check the spray pattern too.
Destroy? Eh, worst case I'm out for some oversized pistons and downtime.
 

GOFAST

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
Location
nederland
TDI
vento afn
The interstage WG opens around 20 PSI with no pressure atop the diaphragm (referenced to interstage boost), so that'll keep the pressure ratio reasonable if the atmospheric turbo takes a dump. It'll do 1:1 EMP:IMP at 15 PSI.
if you use a weaker spring in your interstage WG.
and you would use intake manifold pressure to keep the gate closed.
once opened you would be able to by pass more exhaust energy.
run more boost from the LPT wile running the same intake manifold pressure
and I think lower your EMP.

isn't that the way to go ?
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
I dunno what the interstage backpressure is. So far it has been up to about 35-40 psi IMP (gauge scale ends at 30) to 50 PSI EMP. So there's room for more scoot yet, just gotta dial up the atmospheric wastegate. Don't even have water in the IC and I'm already out of fuel.

Oh, found a first gen prius in the JY, had a real neat little radiator for the inverter, and an electric pump too. The rad was smashed though, so I just grabbed the pump. Figure I'll use a heater core stuffed in the left side wheel well region for a rad.
Grabbed an extra P/S pump while I was there, took it apart and it looks easy enough to add on a PTO out the back cover of it to run a crankcase evac pump. Was thinking of doing the same thing to the vacuum pump, or just going with an electric vacuum pump for the booster and n75 and figuring out how to make the vacuum pump work for crankcase evac. May still do that, if I can come across a cheap leaky vacuum pump to play with. My favorite JY that was in the same family for 3 generations got sold, didn't ask the previous owner why, but it happened and that's an enormous downer. Used to dump my scrap there and he'd give me amazing deals. And another surplus machinery place has been for sale too, quickly losing reasons to stick around the area...

Anyways, the drill bits showed up, good golly gosh they're tiny. Gonna be real interesting mapping out the angles of the holes so that I can make jigs to hold the nozzles such that each hole is vertical. Wish I took more math in school, but hey, I'll figure it out with the help of google. Then I'll have to find a sensitive drill press (I hear good things about the dremel 'drill press' for such applications) to do the actual drilling.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
150˚ cone at your mentioned 15˚ mounting angle iirc. 5 holes spraying symmetrically is 1 hole every 72˚ around the circumference.
Those are the easy numbers.
The hard bit is going to be the compound angles.
If the engineers are friendly fellows who aren't afraid of a little backyard experimentation then one jig will be easy at either 135 or 165 from vertical, then the rest are off the wall oddball angles with the locating pin location rotated in 72 degree increments.
If the engineers were wearing their lederhosen extra tight with a belt AND suspenders, they'll all be at strange angles (we're talking degrees minutes and seconds for extra confusion), the stazi numeric mind control will set in, shoulder length rubber gloves will come out, and I'll be unable to pronounce the safe word.

So either way, good times for all! c:
 

Digital Corpus

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
Those are the easy numbers.
The hard bit is going to be the compound angles.
If the engineers are friendly fellows who aren't afraid of a little backyard experimentation then one jig will be easy at either 135 or 165 from vertical, then the rest are off the wall oddball angles with the locating pin location rotated in 72 degree increments.
If the engineers were wearing their lederhosen extra tight with a belt AND suspenders, they'll all be at strange angles (we're talking degrees minutes and seconds for extra confusion), the stazi numeric mind control will set in, shoulder length rubber gloves will come out, and I'll be unable to pronounce the safe word.

So either way, good times for all! c:
Mount nozzle @ 15˚ on a jig that stands @ 90˚ and allows the nozzle to rotate around the tip when the base spins like an upright car wheel. Mount drill @ 15˚ from vertical and you're done. If you cannot do that, then your "good" is about to become very interesting...

Edit: You can have the jig mounted 15˚ from vertical and avoid needing to mount the drill at an angle. Your jig would then be a tilted wheel.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
visualizing angles is as unintuitive as simple math for me.. :\

Went out and grabbed one, the hole that might line up straight is pointing to the rear of the engine, so it will be spraying fuel at... 75 degrees of cone minus fifteen of inclination... 60 degrees from the axis of the nozzle.

So, I make a jig with the nozzle tilted 15 degrees, with that hole pointed downward. That handles the injector inclination in the head. Then I put the whole thing in the dividing head tilted at 75 degrees for the cone angle... If I offset the jig on the dividing head's chuck to where the 150 degree cone is centralized about the axis of the DH's spindle then it won't even need to be adjusted in the x, y and z.That kind of precision would be kind of hard to do as there really isn't a good surface to run an indicator on to get the cone's axis aligned with the dividing head's spindle.

If my thinking is correct, any translation of the cone's axis away from the DH's axis of spindle rotation should just result in minor adjustments in the x, y and z directions without change in the angle of the hole.

Project just got a lot easier, I think. Praise be to the Corpus!
 

Digital Corpus

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
Sounds right. Now call me a pessimist or sadist, though i do hope you succeed, I expect to see a fiery end to all of this. Well not fire, but black, diesel oil everywhere...
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
I think it will be fine, if they dont leak and atomize well on pop tester there is no reason why they wont work in engine is spray angle is in the ballpark.
 
Top