TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

tommy - i love the outside-the-box thinking of this oil extraction setup. very cool.

however, IMHO as a oil sampling technique this will not yield consistent, representative or accurate lab analyses. if interested, review my and Georgeseq's recent contributions to this thread - LINK

tommyt said:

SUNRG - I pump out the oil using an inexpensive Harbor Freight pump (currently $20) attached to a glass jug. That keeps the pump clean. Half way through, I substituted a small bottle to pull the UOA sample. Cap size is the same, so it is easy.

FWIW - this is why i generally will not comment on a UOA extensively (if at all) until i know whether the oil sample sent to the lab was aquired in a way that will yield representative results.

Click to expand...

wjdell - "I did a SUNRG today - ". That's HI-larious! LOL . I look forward to your future results.

Sunrg - Good points on sampling. I'd figured after about 2Qts of warm oil had already gone through the tubing it would be pretty clean. I have a MityVac clone I can use next time.

Can someone help me analyze this? This is my first-ever UOA. Where do all of these metals come from? The comments section says all is well.

Well, nevermind I guess. I jus realized that I am ot authorized to put attachements inside of posts. C'est la vie.

Rob - when will you have a UOA of the Solaris LSX?

I need to stock up on oil, and (on paper) was leaning towards LSX. There's not much analysis out there yet.

As with the DID, this oil would satisfy both the 505.01 requirement in the PD, and the 502/505 requirement for my Passat, so I can buy in great bulk. The DID has served me *very* well, but I'd like to try a 5W30 in both cars through the winter. I've also been noticing elevated consumption recently with the DID (in both cars) - not much, but more than I'm used to seeing.

Otherwise, I was thinking I'd go with the Full-Tech in the W8.

Thanks.

FL2AK-tdi said:

Can someone help me analyze this? This is my first-ever UOA. Where do all of these metals come from? The comments section says all is well.

Well, nevermind I guess. I jus realized that I am ot authorized to put attachements inside of posts. C'est la vie.?

Click to expand...

Just type in the information. For wear metals and additives, just show in this format:
iron xx
chromium xx
lead xx
etc.

Don't forget miles, miles on oil, soot, contamination (if any), TBN if available, etc. We don't care about the comments.

Something I feel that is worth mentioning/asking here........ I just filled with Long Life III (507.00) a couple days ago and I realize I am probably in the neutralization stage for this 10K OCI. I wondered if I should sample at the 10K mile mark or wait til about 200-500 on the next OCI. Or should I do both? I know I will sample at the end of the next 10K OCI. The reason I would do one very early on the next interval is to see what I am inheriting and give me an idea how much wear takes place thereafter.

OK so here is everything typed in. This is a 90k engine w 10k OCI

The universal averages column shows typical wear from this type of engine after 8000 miles on the oil. You ran your oil 10,000 miles and wear is still right around averages, which is a good sign that the engine is still going strong and no problems are developing. We did find a trace of fuel dilution, which is common in engines that see a lot of city driving and/or idling. We don't consider it a problem until it reads above 2.0%. The TBN read 7.5, still plenty of active additive left in the oil. 1.0 is too low. No moisture or antifreeze found. Try 12,000 miles next time.

ALUMINUM 7
CHROMIUM 2
IRON 28
COPPER 3
LEAD 1
TIN 0
MOLYBDENUM 2
NICKEL 4
MANGANESE 1
SILVER 0
TITANIUM 0
POTASSIUM 0
BORON 5
SILICON 6
SODIUM 5
CALCIUM 1335
MAGNESIUM 1014
PHOSPHORUS 800
ZINC 1018
BARIUM 0

Make Up Oil Added 0.5 qts
ELEMENTS IN PARTS PER MILLION


SUS Viscosity @ 210°F 70.4
cSt Viscosity @ 100°C 13.07
Flashpoint in °F 410
Fuel % TR
Antifreeze % 0.0
Water % 0.0
Insolubles % 0.4
TBN 7.5
TAN (left blank)
ISO Code (left blank)

FL2AK-tdi - how was the oil sample you sent to the lab aquired? what oil was in during this run? thanks!

Whatever engine oil FL2AK-td is using, all the wear metals results are good. The flashpoint is still pretty high, so that trace amount of fuel in the sample must be very tiny.

Of course, if he says he was using Pennzoil 5w30, I may want to modify my remarks.

Ni maybe a bit high but it looks like a good motor - very good UOA.

I've been using the Castrol TXT 5-30 from the dealer for almost two years now. One time before that I used Valvoline Cummins approved truck diesel 5-30 for only a 5k OCI. Umm prior to that, it was always dealership serviced because I worked at the delaership. I think ONCE way back about 3 years ago I used some sort of synthetic 5-30. (don't recall which one) for a 5k OCI. This was back when I was just leaving working at a GM dealership thinking EVERYTHING had a 5k OCI lol. (American made POS lol)

It was recenlty brought to my attention that my 01 doesn't require VW specific oil and I'm considering moving away from that but I kinda wonder if I'll just be throwing good money after bad. similarly, I'll run the next OCI to 12k as suggested by blackstone, but at $22 per analysis, it doesn't make sense for me to to do an analysis every OCI, does it? ($22 is half of the cost of changing my oil)

If you have a non PD you can use the new Delvac ESP - go 15k and never worry. There are other oils that you can use Rotella T - the access is best even Walmart carries. There is also Schaeffers - the best price of any of the top oils. If you like Amsoil DEO is a good oil, Andy showed a superb UOA with it. edit - I think your Ni will come down .

FL2AK-tdi said:

It was recenlty brought to my attention that my 01 doesn't require VW specific oil and I'm considering moving away from that but I kinda wonder if I'll just be throwing good money after bad. similarly, I'll run the next OCI to 12k as suggested by blackstone, but at $22 per analysis, it doesn't make sense for me to to do an analysis every OCI, does it? ($22 is half of the cost of changing my oil)

Click to expand...

The only people who test EVERY time are doing it because they are trying out a variety of different motor oils. Some DO work better than others.

In your case, you already know that your current oil is working fine. If you want to switch, then you can test that and decide whether it's better or not. Once you've settled on a new oil, then testing every 30k-40k miles would be good enough, and more than 99.99% of other vehicle owners.

FL2AK-tdi - how did you get the oil sample that you sent to the lab?

New UOA for me. 10,000 miles on Elf Solaris 507.00
*EDIT* It was run in a 2003 Jetta running most of the time on commercially purchased B100 and the rest of the time on B20-B50 .




The only other UOA that I have to reference it to is the one below from my previous oil taken at 12,500 miles (Elf CRV).




Any suggestions are appreciated. Taken with a mity-vac (yes SUNRG, I've learned my lesson and there's a real pump coming in the mail). The collection cup had been thoroughly cleaned and new tubing was used.

SUNRG said:

FL2AK-tdi - how did you get the oil sample that you sent to the lab?

Click to expand...

Sort of like the directions in the kit say: I pulled the drain plug and let it fill about 1/3-1/2 of the drain pan (my drain pan barely holds all of the oil from draining) and then put the bottle under the drain stream.

Incidentally, I took a sample from my 01M trans in the same manner on the same day. I'm thinking about sending that in also but I'm not sure to what benefit that will be.

cbass - something is wrong - 507 did better but - I do not think LLX has all that sodium

did you use a funnel that had once been used for coolant.

wjdell said:

cbass - something is wrong - 507 did better but - I do not think LLX has all that sodium

Click to expand...

That's what I thought too. What is the sodium related to anyway?

And what about the TBN that they noted, is it something to be worried about being that low?

wjdell said:

did you use a funnel that had once been used for coolant.

Click to expand...

If you're talking to me, then the answer is definitely not.

You have a Na level of 62 - !!!!!!!! - The lead is a tad high and like the Cu it should have gone down. Maybe is a additive clash between 506 & 507 - I see a very high Mg and I am not psoitive but I thought 507 would be closer to 11 Mg like 505.01.

You paid Polaris call them and tell them you are concerned.

wjdell said:

You have a Na level of 62 - !!!!!!!! - The lead is a tad high and like the Cu it should have gone down. Maybe is a additive clash between 506 & 507 - I see a very high Mg and I am not psoitive but I thought 507 would be closer to 11 Mg like 505.01.

You paid Polaris call them and tell them you are concerned.

Click to expand...

So I just learned that high Na levels can be caused by a coolant leak. I have always kept my eye on the coolant level and it stays right on. Is there anything else besides a coolant leak that could cause high Na?

Salt - - baking soda - Calcium Carbonate.

Maybe the put the data in wrong - notice Mg is 62 and Na 62. Call them

Just got off the phone with Polaris. They initially flag an oil for Coolant contamination when Na = 80+ and K = 20+ but he said just what has been said in this thread - that it could be an early indication of some sort of coolant contamination. However my K level is 1 and he said that usually both are elevated if there is coolant present. He wondered if it might be reacting with the previous oil also and suggested changing it and using the same oil again. Resampling after 10,000 miles. What else do you guys think?

since you have zero coolant loss - if it were my TDI, i wouldn't worry about it. i'd just UOA test in another 10k. TBN is fine for a lowSAPS oil. remember the starting TBN for LLX is only 5.32.

Thanks for the input SUNRG, are you saying that you would go another 10,000 miles on this same oil? Also, where is an analysis of new LLX? Is there one somewhere that I could reference?

Def - stay with 507 - this was a flush - the next will be better - and the TBN is not relevant the oil has 10k on it, its time to change it. Especially cause its the first crankcase of 507. I think your Cu and Pb will drop next UOA. My first run of 507 was so so but when the next comes in we shall see. I think 507 will compete with Delvac 1.

cbass94 said:

Thanks for the input SUNRG, are you saying that you would go another 10,000 miles on this same oil? Also, where is an analysis of new LLX? Is there one somewhere that I could reference?

Click to expand...

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=184308
above is my 12k LLX UOA. i ran this oil past 17k but i don't know what i did with the report - it was very good though.

here's thermographer's 50700 UOAs:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=174756
his NA was way higher than your - and he did NOT have a coolant leak - everything was and continues to be fine.

i would change the oil - if your TDI was mine - and i'd do a UOA on the new oil after 10k.

i think we're going to find that ELF Solaris LLX 50700 will perform very well in most stock TDIs for 15,000+ miles - but this is just my feeling. if it were my TDI - i would always UOA test when extending oil drain intervals.

Pb was the value in your UOA that caught my eye - but let's see what the next UOA shows.

cheers!

I'm glad you said what you did SUNRG, that's kind of what I was thinking of doing. I will also have a GOOD vacuum pump for the next one and I will begin being much more careful (and more importantly, consistent) with my oil analyses thanks to this thread

One more question that I didn't see answered. Is there a place where I can look at the values for new ELF 507.00?

running most of the time on commercially purchased B100 and the rest of the time on B20-B50

Click to expand...

Is there anything else besides a coolant leak that could cause high Na?

Click to expand...

Excess, unreacted "sodium methoxide" from the Biodiesel ?

Rich