TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

TooSlick said:

Steve,

Did something mechanical happen between 44k miles and 68k miles, like an inter cooler freeze up? Your used oil samples are getting progressively thinner. This leads me to believe your average level of fuel dilution is much higher than what you're seeing here. Did you go for a long drive before taking this sample? Have you done any significant mods to the engine?

TS

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Yes, had the inner cooler full of ice and the hard crank, then no-start scenario at aprox 65k. No mods at all since the Revo Stage 1 at 10k. The dealer serviced the car at 55k, and I didn't get an oil sample.

I drove the car around town, making a couple stops before taking the sample and also waited for the oil to drain 10 seconds before taking the sample. The temp gauge was showing the engine (or coolant) was up to temp.

There's your problem ....The previous two samples were trending the right way. I'd do a couple of short change intervals (5k-6k), to flush the metal debris out of there, then sample again. It is probably possible to restore a normal wear pattern to this engine if you're patient. I'm still not sure I understand the very thin oil though, unless it's an artifact of your sampling method? The flash points really aren't all that bad.

TS

Numlock- so you took the sample while draining? That can give a corrupt sample. Wear products can linger in bottom of pan and get loosened as oil flows out while draining. Try taking one through the dipstick tube with sample tube only barely into surface of sump oil.

Ski,

I sample from the pan now using a Fumoto valve, after allowing approx 0.5 qts of oil to drain out. I get good correlation with samples taken through the dipstick tube, at the mid level of the sump, using a vacuum pump. So I tend to think this is a representative sample, given the recent history of the engine. Blackstones fuel measurements are known for being inaccurate. I understand they simply estimate the amount of fuel by the flashpoint, rather than measuring it directly with FTIR.

TS

TooSlick said:

There's your problem ....The previous two samples were trending the right way. I'd do a couple of short change intervals (5k-6k), to flush the metal debris out of there, then sample again. It is probably possible to restore a normal wear pattern to this engine if you're patient. I'm still not sure I understand the very thin oil though, unless it's an artifact of your sampling method? The flash points really aren't all that bad.

TS

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Ok, I can do that. At my current driving rate, 5k will be in Sept. I'm guessing the water in the intake caused a lack of lubrication in the cylinders and hence the increased wear?

Ski in NC said:

Numlock- so you took the sample while draining? That can give a corrupt sample. Wear products can linger in bottom of pan and get loosened as oil flows out while draining. Try taking one through the dipstick tube with sample tube only barely into surface of sump oil.

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The oil was warm and drained for about 10-15 seconds before I took the sample. I was told that was better than taking the first or last oil while draining.

What oil are you using? Your last two oil samples were very thin. Given the 0.4% solids level the viscosity should be in the 11-12 Cst range. This thin oil is causing you problems too.

TS

TooSlick said:

What oil are you using? Your last two oil samples were very thin. Given the 0.4% solids level the viscosity should be in the 11-12 Cst range. This thin oil is causing you problems too.

TS

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Castrol (Gold Bottles) LL03 5W30.

Lots of folks using the Castrol with excellent results. My suggestion for the icing is moving tons warm , dry climate. How do you feel about Arizonia?

Seriously though, has anyone come up with a fix for the intercooler icing? Like periodically draining the water out of it?

TS

TS- Agree that taking a drain sample should give the same results. But when sample numbers are going nuts, eliminating the possibility of catching sump debris seems like a good next step.

Also, using a Fumoto valve slows the flow and also drains from a slightly higher point, making debris wash less likely.

Ski,

That's a good point.

I used to sample from the drain plug exclusively before I got the Fumoto valves, thinking it added a degree of conservatism to the results for just the reasons you mentioned. It's really hard to do when the engine is fully warmed up though. I'd hold and tilt the drain plug so I could reinstall it after taking the sample.

The main reason I suspect this engine is the intercooler icing event. Plus the previous two samples were trending the right way - assuming the same technique was used to sample.

TS

TS- Looking back at Numlock's sample it really only seems that the Fe (and visc) went nuts. I'm wondering if there is any other explanation for the Fe related to the IC ice/condensation/hard start issue that is NOT related to internal engine damage. For example, water laying in charge air pipes, causing some corrosion. Moisture in exhaust, causing Fe corrosion there, then some gets cycled back into engine via egr. Just thinking aloud. These conditions may be worse in winter conditions.

I'd freak too seeing Fe at 230ppm. There very well could be an internal engine issue. Like how a bent rod rubs on bottom edge of cylinder. But if that was going on, I'd expect engine to have some other symptoms.

Numlock- Here's what I suggest: Once engine has a 1 or 2k miles on this sump load of oil, draw a sample out of the dipstick tube and send it in. Go another 1 or 2kmile (minimum, more is better) and do it again. Sample from top or mid level of oil sump level and do the exact same sample technique each time. Such as having driven long enough to fully warm up machinery, and don't sample soon after a regen, etc.

This will get a trend. More miles between samples makes for a better trend. It will cost you two samples, but may be worth it to put your mind at ease. (or not!!!)

I have been following the recent discussion on Numlock's oil result and thought I would throw my $.02 in hopes of helping. Non technical, non expert - again just my own observations with my vehicle.
As you can see in my results, I am trending down and it appears I am completing break-in. You can also see I don't go 10K, but even if you extrapolate out, you can see I would still be trending down (again I think in my non-expertise opinion). I don't go 10K based on previous results and Blackstone's advice which appears to be primarily based on the low TBN. What is odd is that I would imagine myself as one of the more ideal users in that I am the only driver, and I do the same driving everyday with my car. There are exceptions at times (very few to the order of 2% of the total miles on the vehicle), but a safe estimate is that 90% of my driving is the same - same route, same habits, same pattern. It is also 60 highway and 40 rural with no city. This puts me at a loss as to how VW can mandate 10K oil changes with no stipulations. In other words, I don't feel there is as much "cushion" as some feel there is and that 10K does not cover every user. I guess I do not want to be the one who is dipping into the red regarding oil life every time I am in my last 2K of an oil change. Consider for example the Sprinter with the 3.0L diesel V-6. I would argue marginally larger engine and yes, during the course of it's 10K mandated oil change, 2-2.5x more fuel will be burned, however it holds 14.5 quarts of oil. At 4.5 quarts, I don't feel I am wasting oil, unnecessarily harming the environment, but I do think I am helping my engine based on my results. Again - my opinion so please don't arrest me oil change police
So how does this relate to Numlock.....well first, I see he is going 10K plus and I think that is a factor. If he was going 6 - 8 K, maybe his numbers would be better sooner, or not that bad ever. Second - I have had three hydrolocks with my vehicle. And when I say hydrolock, I mean hydrolock solid. Two prior to 55K, but one occurred during this last oil change sample. I went to start my vehicle, it ingested a large enough amount of water to stall it immediately after start up, I tried to re-start and it was locked up. I waited five minutes for the water to drain and started it. It stumbled, fired and ran and then I drove on my merry way water in the oil and all. I am past worrying due to the number of hard starts and hydrolocks, I just start it and go and if I damage the engine, I will invest the energy I would have used on worrying about damaging it on fighting with VW, if nothing else on principle. The only reason why I did this last sample, was because of this hydrolock. So it would be interesting to see - did I get lucky and Numlock does have damage, or is the 10K plus oil changes at least part to blame.
Again, this is all for discussion purposes and my opinion, I am truly curious.

Bernie,

I don't believe the fuel dilution measurement. Considering the baseline viscosity dropped by about 25% (from 12 to 9 Cst), it should be higher. The flashpoint is actually quite good, which also doesn't jive. If we can figure out why the viscosity is so low your wear rates will drop some more.

Wear metals are slowly trending downward. Amazing how long it takes these new TDI's to wear in.

TS

TooSlick said:

Bernie,

I don't believe the fuel dilution measurement. Considering the baseline viscosity dropped by about 25% (from 12 to 9 Cst), it should be higher. The flashpoint is actually quite good, which also doesn't jive. If we can figure out why the viscosity is so low your wear rates will drop some more.

Wear metals are slowly trending downward. Amazing how long it takes these new TDI's to wear in.

TS

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Thanks TS - I agree. I actually performed this oil change immediately after a regen (couldn't avoid it). I expected fuel dilution because my sample at 39,769 was also immediately after a regen and I showed 1%.

You might try the Mobil 1/ESP or one of the other VW 507.00 oils, just to see if it holds up better. The 5w-40 of the ESP is another option.

TS

JDSwan87 said:

When you guys go into the post office to mail out your completed kit and they ask if there's any liquids in it, do you lie? Or tell them is oil? I've been told that if you say its oil, it will cost you like $30 to mail it in the continental US...

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No lies. It says right on the side of the shipping container that it contains liquid. The postmen get a little squeamish about it sometimes, but for $3, I've mailed them from across the Pacific to Blackstone with no problems. The postmen are used to seeing oil samples, because each time they ask if its from the tour helicopters, plus my employer also sends out oil samples monthly, dozens of them, from various equipment crankcases.

Amsoil 5W30 Euro, 2010 Jetta TDI, 9343 Miles

Here is my latest UOA from my 2010 Jetta TDI. I was hoping that iron would drop, but no luck. I am still concerned by it being "elevated" even though Blackstone said no problem. This was my third run of Amsoil 5W30 Euro, and replaced it with more. I am thinking of trying something else, but not sure what to try. The first changes were all with the VW Castrol LL under the factory warranty plan. Questions and comments are appreciated.

Ski in NC said:

Numlock- Here's what I suggest: Once engine has a 1 or 2k miles on this sump load of oil, draw a sample out of the dipstick tube and send it in. Go another 1 or 2kmile (minimum, more is better) and do it again. Sample from top or mid level of oil sump level and do the exact same sample technique each time. Such as having driven long enough to fully warm up machinery, and don't sample soon after a regen, etc.

This will get a trend. More miles between samples makes for a better trend. It will cost you two samples, but may be worth it to put your mind at ease. (or not!!!)

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Sorry for the late reply...

I think I'll do that and wait for the results. If they come back high then I'll do a complete oil and filter change and go from there. Hopefully it is due o the inner cooler issue.

This is the first UOA I have ever done. I am concerned about wear of the brass bearings in the turbo and expect that wear will show up as high copper levels. I don't put a lot of miles on this car and have intentions of keeping it for at least 15 years, but because of the significant number of turbo failures on this model I may reconsider my commitment to this car. If the copper level was predictive of turbo failure then I might know if or when I should start worrying. I will be taking another sample from this same oil in a few months. My thought is that once bearing wear gets started it will proceed rapidly and show up as very high copper levels.

I am posting this in two threads, the the oil analysis discussion in the 2012+ passat section and in the fuels and lubricants sections.

Has anyone had turbo failure and a UOA history that might support this theory.

Loki,

It takes a long time for these engines to wear in. Low mileage engines show lots of break in wear, so it's tough to spot anything abnormal. I wouldn't bother testing again until you have 30,000 miles on the engine and then start trending it. You're covered by the VW power train warranty out to 60,000 miles.

TS

There have been over 90 documented 2012+ TDI turbo failures among TDI forum members. Many had less than 20,000 miles. Many more cars are cranking up high miles with no issues. I am not worried about any part of the engine but the turbo. It should be interesting to track the copper content from a new car. I also intend to take another sample just before the first oil change to get rate of change.

M1 ESP Formula 5W30 | 9133mil | VW Golf 1.9TDI ATD

Hi!!

I´ve got my second UOA on the M1 ESP Formula, this was the third run, and last for now, on this oil.
Right now it has Liqui Moly Top Tec 4600 5W-30 inside and I can´t wait to see the results of the UOA, that I hope it will get better.
I thank for the all opinions/contributions in advance.

Brand: VW
Model: Golf mk4 1.9TDI
Year: 2002
Engine: 100HP (ATD Unit-Injector)
UFI filters
Car mileage: 90167 (about 145110km)
Oil mileage: 9132 (about 14698km)

I usually do small trips (5-10km), several times a day, during the week. During the weekend, sporadically, a few miles on motorways and similar.



This time, all the results are better or equal to the last UOA, and, finally, the TBN was above 1.0 (1.4).

AFAIK nothing changed in the use of the car in this last 2 years, besides the oil and the filter, but the results are a bit different from the last time.

For the record, all filters used this last time were from UFI and not OEM, and I can´t see any differences in the results. I don´t know if I can take any conclusion based on these figures, but is only a side note.

Regards.

Blasar,

The important thing is that your last two tests generated very consistent results. With a flashpoint of +470F the engine is clearly running well and the spray pattern of the injectors is in excellent shape. Nothing bad to report on here...

Thanks for the reply, TooSlick.

My unit-injectors were "overhauled" (each one had: an warm ultra-sound bath, re-calibration and received a new seal kit) last September. If you didn´t mention that, I will never remember it. :S

I´m still looking for the sweet spot, and I have great hopes with this Liqui Moly I´m using now. Let´s wait and see.

Regards.

Blaser,

No problem ...

On a completely different topic, have you got a good Paella recipe? I love that stuff! Maybe you can send me a PM and point me in the right direction?

Thanks,

TS

Here's the most recent UOA on my 30K mile CKRA TDI. The sample at 25K was a dipstick extraction to check on status. Since that time I've been adding 1 quart of B100 for improved lubricity with every 15-16 gallon fillup. I wonder if the elevated silicon is from the 2 new silicone charge air hoses I installed after the one of the turbo developed a tear. While aluminum is up a bit, iron is actually down from the last full change at 20K. This is the third fill with LM.

VW Norm,
An air leak of any kind downstream of the filter will result in directionally higher, upper engine wear metals. These come from abrasive wear of the intake /exhaust valves, as well as the rings, cylinder walls and pistons. In these cases I look first at Cr/Al/Ni/Fe. The valves are generally stainless steel, ie Fe alloyed with Cr and Ni. Piston rings are chrome-moly steel and so on. By understanding the metallurgy of a particular engine you can pinpoint where and how the wear is occurring.
Your 30k analysis should be looking significantly cleaner than your 20k analysis, but it's actually worse in some respects. So I'd check carefully and make sure the intake system is leak free. Your viscosity is also lower than I'd like to see. These VW 507.00 oils start out with a viscosity of. ~ 12.0 Cst @100C. I think you're getting more fuel dilution due to the bioD than is indicated here. Blackstone does not directly measure the # of fuel dilution; they simply estimate it from the flashpoint. Since bioD has a FP > 300F, you can significantly contaminate the oil with a minimal effect on the FP.
I'd cut back on the bioD and switch to a multipurpose diesel fuel additive to provide extra lubricity to the fuel. I'd also try another VW 507.00 oil and see if that helps . Both the Castrol and Mobil 1 products are working consistently well in these engines.
These 30k results aren't terrible , but there's room for improvement.

TS

Here are my last report on my 09 and 10

Here's my first-ever UOA (first for both for me and for this car). 2003 Golf ALH, Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck. The previous oil change was late, so this one doesn't have as many miles on it as it normally would.


http://pics.tdiclub.com/showfull.php?photo=103717

TDI in MT said:

Here's my first-ever UOA (first for both for me and for this car). 2003 Golf ALH, Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck. The previous oil change was late, so this one doesn't have as many miles on it as it normally would.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showfull.php?photo=103717

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That is an excellent UOA for an almost-new 2003 TDI. You can easily extend the oil change interval to 10k miles with Mobil 1 TDT, or even longer if necessary.

Regarding the tester's comments: It is not true that the ALH engines "have issues with premature cam lobe wear." He is clearly thinking of the PD engines which were available in the US beginning with the 2004 model year.