No torque and black smoke -Jetta 2006 w/greasecar

VegyCar

New member
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Location
Maine
TDI
Jetta 2006 TDI
I have had 12000 completely flawless miles on my Jetta 2006 - But now I have a big problem - it is most likely not anything related to the Greasecar Kit installation. However I might not be covered by the warrenty of this new car according to the dealer. :mad:

The problem is completely similar on Diesel & Grease - no power/Torque before 2500 RPM - and when the power (Turbo) kicks in, the Jetta smokes like an old Diesel truck. :confused:

The great Greasecar Kit expert Daryl Beck has spend many many hours trying to identifying the problem without any luck - However he mostlikely has confirmed that it nothing to do with the Greasecar Kit & the its related to the Mass Air Flow which relates to the check engine error codes I am constantly getting.

Any ideas suggestions would be very much apreciated
Thanks
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 11, 2000
Location
MA
TDI
ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
trolin' trollin'...

VegyCar said:
However I might not be covered by the warrenty of this new car according to the dealer.

Who told you this kit could be installed on a 2006 Jetta :)
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
I second the above: most likely, the use of vegetable oil has buggered any or all of the in-tank pump, the tandem pump, and the P-D injectors.

Precisely what mass-airflow code is being set? If the code has something to do with the measured airflow being out of range, probably the lack of fuel delivery is causing lack of turbo boost which is causing lack of airflow which is being correctly indicated by the still-perfectly-good MAF, not the other way around. You could be *astoundingly* lucky and it could in fact be a bad MAF, but that's not a common problem on these cars.

And ... get that greasecar system OUT of there. You can run biodiesel that meets the DIN... standard in a P-D, but vegetable oil is unsuitable (as I think you are about to find out).
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
By the way, you need to get the diagnostics done by someone who knows their way around VW TDI diesels and has VAG-COM and knows how to use it; this is not necessarily the Greasecar people.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
I thought of another thing on the way home. It's possible that a sticky build-up is making your EGR valve hang open. Since the MAF sensor is used for regulating the EGR operation, that would be expected to throw all sorts of EGR and MAF related codes. If this is the case, that sticky buildup is likely from half-burned fuel as a result of poor atomization, and that's because the vegetable oil is far too viscous. Once again, do the proper diagnostics ... but if this proves to be the case, consider it to be a warning shot.
 

BioDiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Location
CT
TDI
'98 Jetta
"I second the above: most likely, the use of vegetable oil has buggered any or all of the in-tank pump, the tandem pump, and the P-D injectors."

Nope. VO won't do that.
Many PD's running SVO in Europe . Several with 60k+ miles.

Here's just one:
http://rapsdb.rapsinfo.de/detail.php?id=659

Here's a PD dual tank kit for 500 Euro:
http://www.monopoel.de/formular/2tank-poel.html

"that sticky buildup is likely from half-burned fuel as a result of poor atomization, and that's because the vegetable oil is far too viscous."

Thats odd. I always thought the opposite.

My pre-PD TDI still has _never_ had the intake cleaned, With 130K miles total, 20k on B90 and 50K WVO. I just checked the EGR a couple months ago. Still clean. :):):)

TDI's on petro diesel are not so lucky. :)

The best advice has already been given. Get the car to an independant garage where the problem can be diagnosed w/o predjuidice.
 
Last edited:

Evolution

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Location
Raleigh, N.C.
TDI
2015 Passat TDI SEL, Platinum Gray
I knew Greasecar was coming out with a 06 TDI PD kit, but I was waiting on Frybrid's kit to come out. I didn't know they were offering it yet, nor is it listed on thier website. I know Plantdrive has theirs out for the new 06's. I'd be very interested in hearing about your kit and how it's been doing for you.
Funny, whenever you have a problem and you are running Bio or WVO people immediately go for your throat over having it. My question is why? If you don't like it, then why bash the person for trying it. Some people have alot of miles on cars with kits on them with no issues. If the kit is set up and performs as it should then things are fine. There are peps on the Duramax boards with me that have been running bio-d and wvo for a long time. A couple recently reporting over 100k miles on thier vehicles.
I agree that people can and have had problems with wvo and bio-d, but why can't some reasonable help be given like what was done above aswell. But on this board, you get attacked by some for having it and run into the ground, and for what, trying to save some money, trying to cut emissions. Geez people, give someone a break. I'd be real interested if the ones on here with such harsh critisizm have even tried any of this technology.
 
Last edited:

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
Evolution said:
I knew Greasecar was coming out with a 06 TDI PD kit, but I was waiting on Frybrid's kit to come out. I didn't know they were offering it yet, nor is it listed on thier website. I know Plantdrive has theirs out for the new 06's. I'd be very interested in hearing about your kit and how it's been doing for you.
Funny, whenever you have a problem and you are running Bio or WVO people immediately go for your throat over having it. My question is why? If you don't like it, then why bash the person for trying it. Some people have alot of miles on cars with kits on them with no issues. If the kit is set up and performs as it should then things are fine. There are peps on the Duramax boards with me that have been running bio-d and wvo for a long time. A couple recently reporting over 100k miles on thier vehicles.
I agree that people can and have had problems with wvo and bio-d, but why can't some reasonable help be given like what was done above aswell. But on this board, you get attacked by some for having it and run into the ground, and for what, trying to save some money, trying to cut emissions. Geez people, give someone a break. I'd be real interested if the ones on here with such harsh critisizm have even tried any of this technology.
I don't believe the responses have been slams . High Pressure Unit injector diesels which have been around for years like the TDI-PD have had well known issues with BD and it is very close to Dinodiesel . You throw a WVO system which have viscosity & consistency issues you are asking , Begging for major engine failure .

VW got their fill of people using BD in their TDIs long before the first TDI-PD was ever sold here in the states . VWAG has learned very well how to diagnose BD & WVO failures . So if you are going to ignore the good advise you have been given , be aware you will forfeit your warranty .

If you want to go the WVO route , get an older VW/Audi diesel from 77 to 92 or a VW TDI from 96 to 03 .
 

RC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 13, 2000
Location
Maryland`s Eastern Shore
TDI
Two White 96 B4 Wagons
Evolution said:
... But on this board, you get attacked by some for having it and run into the ground, and for what, trying to save some money, trying to cut emissions.
Who says that burning WVO is cutting emissions? Over B100?
 

Evolution

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Location
Raleigh, N.C.
TDI
2015 Passat TDI SEL, Platinum Gray
rotarykid said:
I don't believe the responses have been slams . High Pressure Unit injector diesels which have been around for years like the TDI-PD have had well known issues with BD and it is very close to Dinodiesel . You throw a WVO system which have viscosity & consistency issues you are asking , Begging for major engine failure .

VW got their fill of people using BD in their TDIs long before the first TDI-PD was ever sold here in the states . VWAG has learned very well how to diagnose BD & WVO failures . So if you are going to ignore the good advise you have been given , be aware you will forfeit your warranty .

If you want to go the WVO route , get an older VW/Audi diesel from 77 to 92 or a VW TDI from 96 to 03 .
If you research wvo, you will find that if injected correctly and at the right temperature, (Where alot of damage occurs) the viscosity is not an issue. If you research Frybrid systems you will find that they operate their systems to both start on D2 and turn off on D2 thus eliminating cold wvo start up where alot of damage also occurs. As I stated, it has to be done right in order for it to work.
As far as the warranty goes, I'm not contesting that if you modify your car outside the warranty, the warranty should be void. Never said anything about it. If I wanted an older VW or Audi, I'd find one. And until recently I was looking for a MkIV for this project, but I bought a Duramax instead. I'm not one to bitc$ about a warranty after I directly void it, aslong as the system I voided is the one malfuntioning. If it had nothing to do with it, then yeah, I'd say something. But, if I fry the injectors or pump by incorrectly injecting a substance, I wouldn't expect VW or anyone else to pay for my mistake.
 

40X40

Experienced
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Location
Kansas City area, MO
TDI
2013 Passat SEL Premium
Nobody is attacking anyone.

Get it to a TDI guru. Fast!

If you had posted the codes, it would have been helpful.

Good luck, you may need it!

Bill
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
At least you're willing to pay for the damage if it was the fault of the WVO system. :)

The injection pressure and the size of the holes in the nozzles in the fuel injectors on modern diesel engines mean that when the WVO is injected, it degrades, and the glycerin component cokes on the nozzles, clogging them. That affects the spray pattern, efficiency, and other stuff.

Also, even heated WVO has much higher viscosity than petrodiesel. This puts more strain on your car's injection system.

Why is an old Mercedes-Benz diesel good? Simple. As they're indirect injection engines, they don't need either the high injection pressures, or the complex nozzles - they have a very simple nozzle with one large hole. Also, their injection pump is of a much more durable type than what's on any VW diesel.
 

Evolution

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Location
Raleigh, N.C.
TDI
2015 Passat TDI SEL, Platinum Gray
I agree to an extent with you. I did not think a kit was out yet for the new PD motor like mine due to these issues, well except one and I didn't like the design. That's why I'm interested in this guys set up. To my understanding they were having pressure issues with the new PD's thus no kit was out yet.
As for the nozzles, this seems to be one of the reasons that Frybrid "washes" the fuel system with D2 before shut down. They call it purging. At the temp Frybird is injecting the wvo, they say it is almost no viscosity difference. But they are the only one that seem to really approach the kits like this. Doing it thier way, I just haven't seen problems from their customers. They are reporting great experiences with them.

To the warranty thing, yeah, I see a bunch try this stuff and I don't agree. I may pi$$ off the other side of things here, but if you mess with it, it's yours.

As far as this post, I was hoping this guy would post some specifics. Maybe the info could lead to some trouble shooting. Plus I'd really like to hear about the kit he has.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Well, almost all systems suggest that you switch over to the diesel tank before shutdown, to get the WVO out of the fuel lines and nozzles, as it will gel.

IIRC, the temperature the oil needs to be at to be as thin as diesel is approximately 250 F, which is stupid hot.

170 F is reasonably thin for old VP-type and even indirect injection VE-type FIPs, but not for DI VE or PD injection systems.
 

Evolution

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Location
Raleigh, N.C.
TDI
2015 Passat TDI SEL, Platinum Gray
bhtooefr said:
Well, almost all systems suggest that you switch over to the diesel tank before shutdown, to get the WVO out of the fuel lines and nozzles, as it will gel.

IIRC, the temperature the oil needs to be at to be as thin as diesel is approximately 250 F, which is stupid hot.

170 F is reasonably thin for old VP-type and even indirect injection VE-type FIPs, but not for DI VE or PD injection systems.


Last time I looked, only a couple companies purged the systems, and in those only one did it in a timely manner.
Somehow, I'm just not seeing 250 F.
And like I said, I'm not disputing the new PD's system having issues with wvo technology. If they had one running right, I might would have one. Perhaps heat is a problem with the new PD's, perhaps it's not enuff for them. As I said, not contesting the new PD's at all.
One of my problems, however, is that there are only a few here that offer real advice. The rest give you this you're doomed and you shouldn't have done that crap. It gets old seeing this everytime someone would like a little help. It discourages the user, and if they're new, why would they want to come back after getting a response like that.
You have obviously researched these systems, but many trying to give advice I really don't beleive has.
 
Last edited:

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 11, 2000
Location
MA
TDI
ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
trollin' trollin'...

what happened to OP? This is the only post he's ever made....
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Well, some systems may have an AUTOMATIC changeover back to diesel, but on ALL systems, you're supposed to purge the VO by switching back to diesel.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
dieseldorf said:
what happened to OP? This is the only post he's ever made....
He sent me a PM with the codes that were being set, but it had been scanned with a generic non-VW-specific scanner, and were gibberish as a result. Never heard anything afterward.

As for the statements discouraging the use of vegetable-oil in these cars ... Talk to the people that FIX these cars. There are plenty on these forums. I will continue to discourage the use of any vegetable oil kit which does not either maintain or take over the vehicle's engine warranty (on the complete fuel system including the injectors and pump, not just the vegetable-oil-related components), and the only system out there that I know of which does that (and is TUV approved, also) is Elsbett.

Taking over the vehicle manufacturer's engine warranty gives a level of confidence which is not present otherwise. The TUV approval is another indication, because TUV approval is *tough* to get. When are some of these other manufacturers going to step up to the plate ? ? ?

P.S. I have no connection with Elsbett and don't own any of their products. I'm just calling it the way I see it - as always.
 

gottdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Location
Marysville, California
TDI
2001 TDI Yellow Beetle GLS
what happened to OP?
Don't you know! Trolls live under skanky bridges in dark damp places only to come out to pounce on unwitting souls.

Shop that can't figure out a problem and has to resort to troll ware to try to get some answers. Too bad he can't just come clean (oooops did I say clean troll) and ask and be an active part of the program.


 
Last edited:

mrchill

TDIClub Enthusiast, Super Secret Diesel Ninja Vend
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Location
MASS! home of THE WORLD SERIES CHAMPION RED SOX! x
TDI
96 B4v red \ 98 Mk3 green\98 Mk3 Jetta black\ 99 Mk4 Jetta green x2\ 99 Mk4 Golf silver x2\ 99 Mk4 Jetta black\ 97 B4 sedan green\04 JSW gold\03 JSW silver
I have a couple of ideas why you have a problem. If you dont mind a drive down from Maine, I'd be happy to check it out for you. In fact Darryl has sent a few to me to diag.
 

tequilaiam

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Location
Indiana
TDI
2000 NB
You know, something like this happened to me once after my TB change.

One of the tubes from the turbo to intercooler came off (the hose clamp wasn't on all the way) and it caused similar problems. It idled fine but anything but the slightest amount of throttle would smoke. Especially over 1800 RPMs...it was very thick black smoke and there was very little power. I could hear the pressurized air escaping when the turbo wound up. I connected the hoses again and made sure the hose clamp was tight and the issue went away.

Maybe when your kit was installed they removed a post-turbo hose somewhere and didn't get it seated right when they put it back on. Thats what we did when doing my TB - it was ok for 20 miles or so and the first time I really romped the gas and spun that turbo up the pressure popped the hose off.
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 11, 2000
Location
MA
TDI
ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
This was posted recently and pertains to MBz's newer diesel autos:

 

Jack_Berry

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Location
Racine Wis
TDI
02 jetta sedan
RC said:
Who says that burning WVO is cutting emissions? Over B100?
check greasecars site. there is an emission test d2 vs wvo vs bio i think.

also check out the book in my sig. available in b&n as a reference material. i am at work now so can't get the numbers right now.
 
Last edited:
Top