Automatic Transmission Fluid: change, or flush?

I've read GWilli's tutorial and the Bentley. This is what I gather:
There's about 9 liters of fluid in my 4 spd automatic transmission. If i just remove the pan and change the fluid in that I'll get about 4 liters out. What about the rest of the 5 liters of fluid? I want to replace it all since I'm going to switch from the OEM fluid to Redline D4.
How do I flush the rest of the ATF out? I've heard on some automatics there is a fluid return line that can be disconnected and guided into a catch container, and you should just continually add fresh fluid until the return fluid changes colour.
Is this the same procedure on the VW 4sp automatic? Does anyone have a pic of this return line?

trans fluid

frema motors in goldsboro nc has a machine that will flush all the trasn fluid out even the tork converter with new bg synthetic fluid or vw fluid.

phone 1 800 831 0205

And how do they hook that to a Volkswagen that does not have a cooler in the radiator, but instead a cooler on the trans?

I would never stray from the OE Volkswagen ATF. It is far better than anything else you could use, and every time I hear about somebody changing it the transmission dies an early death.

Just drop your pan and change the filter and that fluid, and use the proper procedure to refill it. You'll be fine. Also the "old" fluid will always look a lot darker than the new fluid, that is perfectly normal and nothing to worry about.

I read about many people who experience problems after a "flush"

There are at least two theories about this. One is that the flush does more damage than good stirring up problems. The other suggest that many people who are having problems opt for the flush in hopes that it may fix a problem and when it doesn't they blame the flush.

My personal opinion is that many shops have installed all kinds of flush machines all designed first to flush more money out of your wallet. I will stick to what the manufacturer recommends and lacking any guidance there, I would change the auto-transmission fluid every 40-100 thousand miles. However I have never owned an automatic tranmission car.

Well, the plan is to flush with Red Line D4 since it looks to be a very good product. I'd like to do this myself, if possible. If I can't flush it, I'll have to settle for changing the fluid in the pan with fresh OEM fluid since I don't want to mix the two oils. So... nobody knows?

oilhammer said:

And how do they hook that to a Volkswagen that does not have a cooler in the radiator, but instead a cooler on the trans?

I would never stray from the OE Volkswagen ATF. It is far better than anything else you could use, and every time I hear about somebody changing it the transmission dies an early death.

Just drop your pan and change the filter and that fluid, and use the proper procedure to refill it. You'll be fine. Also the "old" fluid will always look a lot darker than the new fluid, that is perfectly normal and nothing to worry about.

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my 2000 beetle has a oil cooler up by the front of the engine and they take the oil cooler lines off and hook the machine to the lines.this was all done at very good vw dealer that has good tecs.the service manger said that the synthetic fluid more that meet's vw spec.

Could you post a pic of that cooler, because yours would be the very first one I've ever seen like that. Your transaxle should have no external cooler with ATF leaving the case, but a little metal "box" on top of the transaxle case that has coolant hoses going to and from it (follow them down from the heater core/EGR cooler area).

Your car does have power steering lines down in front.

Only the B5 Passats have an external (in the radiator) ATF cooler with lines leaving the transmission case. Please show me if I'm wrong, because I'd love to be able to flush the 01M!

oilhammer said:

I would never stray from the OE Volkswagen ATF. It is far better than anything else you could use, and every time I hear about somebody changing it the transmission dies an early death.

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Nothing special about VW fluid. We have done many using Amsoil and other brands. So many people think VW has magic fluid.

The early death is normally on transmissions that never have any maintenance done at all then change fluid and the additives in the new fluid are better and begins to clean things up. When things are being cleaned up it breaks things loose like carbon, varnish etc. Then these particles get caught and cause problems.

Greg

The early death is normally on transmissions that never have any maintenance done at all then change fluid and the additives in the new fluid are better and begins to clean things up. When things are being cleaned up it breaks things loose like carbon, varnish etc. Then these particles get caught and cause problems.

Or they had the change done because they were getting indications of some problem with the transmission and hoped the new fluid would fix it, but it did not. In that case it would have failed with or without the change.

I've been using Quaker State Multi Vehicle for ~35,000km's just fine an dandy. Now have 180,000 on the (knock on wood) original tranny.

What I have seen here is if they make it past 80K they are good for long time. The ones that I have seen fail have had between 70K-80K. They have all taken hard parts out when they went too.

Greg

LanduytG said:

What I have seen here is if they make it past 80K they are good for long time. The ones that I have seen fail have had between 70K-80K. They have all taken hard parts out when they went too.

Greg

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quick question, i am around 60k and was planning to change the atf when i do my next maintenance routine. should i wait on the atf until mileage > 80K?

Ok... but... is there any way for me to completely flush the tranny with this new fluid by myself or do I have to find a machine that can do this? I really want to avoid taking it to a shop.

Greg, thanks for the support.

ScorpionBoy said:

quick question, i am around 60k and was planning to change the atf when i do my next maintenance routine. should i wait on the atf until mileage > 80K?

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I think 60K is better and fluid is cheaper than a rebuild.


Fortuna Wolf

Yes its easy to do, just drain the pan and change the filter and refill. Then drive it a few miles and drop the pan again and refill, doing a total of 3 changes will get out 99% of the old. This is also much easier if you have a Pella because after you change the filter the first time all you will need to do is suck it out through the fill hole and it won't be messy.

Greg

I do not think anything is magical about the mineral fluid, but it should not be mixed with anything else. If you want to change to something else, just be sure and get it all changed out.

To me it just isn't worth the hassle of multiple drain and refills just to change the type of fluid just because.

Although I do not think the fluid should never be changed, I do think about every 100 to 120k is fine for most people. I've never been all that impressed with the 01M transmission to begin with, but I do have several customers that have well over 200k miles with them without troubles. Same thing happens with Honda CVTs.

I have however changed out about a half dozen 01Ms after somebody did a pan service and refilled with a "foreign" fluid. You fill one up with synthetic Dexron mixed with whatever OE ATF was left in there and they'll usually start acting up in about 500 miles. Sometimes you can save them, sometimes you can't. At the dealer we had them towed in from Quickie Lubes all the time.

LanduytG said:

I think 60K is better and fluid is cheaper than a rebuild.
Greg

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roger that. thanks.

oilhammer said:

Could you post a pic of that cooler, because yours would be the very first one I've ever seen like that. Your transaxle should have no external cooler with ATF leaving the case, but a little metal "box" on top of the transaxle case that has coolant hoses going to and from it (follow them down from the heater core/EGR cooler area).

Your car does have power steering lines down in front.

Only the B5 Passats have an external (in the radiator) ATF cooler with lines leaving the transmission case. Please show me if I'm wrong, because I'd love to be able to flush the 01M!

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well what ever it has they took two line loose and hook up to it.i am not a service tect that is why i take my car's back to the vw dealer that i got them from.they have all way's treated me very good and the service dept is great.i am happy with what they did and the next time my car's need serviceing they will go back to the same dealer.

jerry, I really think somebody took advantage of you as there are no external transmission cooler lines on your car. Somebody please correct me and restore my faith in humanity if I am wrong, but I work on these cars every day and have never ever seen a NB TDI with an external trans cooler (maybe the DSG has one, but I don't think so).

If you look on top of your transmission you will see either a rectangular box with small coolant hoses going to and from it (4 speed 01M automatic) or a small circular "puck" with coolant hoses going to and from it (5 speed 09A automatic). There is no cooler in the radiator as on most other cars therefor no external ATF cooler pipes anywhere to attach a flush machine to!

I think that dealer is simply taking your money for no reason!

You have been had. There are NO EXTERNAL COOLING LINES on the VW transmissions. The Transmission is liquid cooled via an intergrated fluid to coolant heat exchanger. Coolant is routed TO the transmission, to be more clear the transmission fluid NEVER leaves the transmission!

The only way to change fluid is to drop the pan, replace the filter then refill using the temperature/level adjustment method.

At most all you can replace is 3.5 liters.

I recomend changing the fluid and filter every 100,000 miles based on the fluid analysis I have seen. More frequently is a waste of good fluid. 100K also coincides with the first timing belt change on the newer cars, however the DSG has a more frequent fluid change interval namely 45K (pretty sure thats what it is).

DB

oilhammer said:

jerry, I really think somebody took advantage of you as there are no external transmission cooler lines on your car. Somebody please correct me and restore my faith in humanity if I am wrong, but I work on these cars every day and have never ever seen a NB TDI with an external trans cooler (maybe the DSG has one, but I don't think so).

If you look on top of your transmission you will see either a rectangular box with small coolant hoses going to and from it (4 speed 01M automatic) or a small circular "puck" with coolant hoses going to and from it (5 speed 09A automatic). There is no cooler in the radiator as on most other cars therefor no external ATF cooler pipes anywhere to attach a flush machine to!

I think that dealer is simply taking your money for no reason!

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i was there watching them when they did the flush.i watch as they put the new synthetic fluid in the machine and all so saw the old fluid coming out and going into a contaner it it look bad.what ever they hooked up to was inside of the engine comparment and the tec was standing on the left side of the car as he hooked the lines up and i saw him when they were finished and unhook the machine and hook the lines back up to the car.

Just a crazy thought - wondering if they flushed and filled the coolant system with ATF? From everything I have read about VW dealers, I would not put it past them.

wny_pat said:

Just a crazy thought - wondering if they flushed and filled the coolant system with ATF? From everything I have read about VW dealers, I would not put it past them.

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i don't think so

It is the only cooler out front that has lines that can be unhooked.

Hey, jerry, did they sell you a set of spark plugs, too?

Seriously, though, there are no external transmission cooler lines on your car. There are power steering lines. I really think you owe it to yourself to check into this. Many here including myself have all the manuals for your car, I'd be to send a picture for you.

Did you look under your hood to see the ATF cooler like I stated before? We're not making this up for our amusement. Your car is simply not equipped with an external ATF cooler.

The fluid might be good till 100K but its not the fluid that concerns me. Its the crap I have seen in the pan of every one I have pulled.

For a few bucks its better safe than sorry. These auto trans have enough issues without adding things on top of it. The only trans I know of thats worse is a Dodge trans.

Greg

automatic trans flush

i call the service manger at the vw dealer where i had the auto tran flush done.i was wroung about where the trans oil cooler is at it is on top of the transmission and that is where they hooked the transmission flush machine up at.he said that they unhooked the lines and had to use special fittings and adapers to hook to it.i could be wroung about the lines as i was at work when i made the call and time was short.any way they hooked in to the oil cooler on top of the transmission.

Jerry - Do a search. Those lines are the coolant lines! The lines carry the coolant into and out of the transmission to cool the ATF inside the transmission and torque converter. Even the Bentley says you have to pull the pan to change the fluid.

That's why I asked, because it is certainly possibly somebody out there makes an adapter that attaches directly to the transmission but I have never found one that does. Seems like that would make an awful mess, too.

I've used a BG machine before, and we had ll the available adapters and there were none available as you say for Volkswagens (save for the B5 Passat's ZF box)

Drivbiwire said:

You have been had. There are NO EXTERNAL COOLING LINES on the VW transmissions. The Transmission is liquid cooled via an intergrated fluid to coolant heat exchanger. Coolant is routed TO the transmission, to be more clear the transmission fluid NEVER leaves the transmission!

The only way to change fluid is to drop the pan, replace the filter then refill using the temperature/level adjustment method.

At most all you can replace is 3.5 liters.

I recomend changing the fluid and filter every 100,000 miles based on the fluid analysis I have seen. More frequently is a waste of good fluid. 100K also coincides with the first timing belt change on the newer cars, however the DSG has a more frequent fluid change interval namely 45K (pretty sure thats what it is).

DB

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Affirmative on the DSG FCI, my owner's manual states 45k.

oilhammer said:

That's why I asked, because it is certainly possibly somebody out there makes an adapter that attaches directly to the transmission but I have never found one that does. Seems like that would make an awful mess, too.

I've used a BG machine before, and we had ll the available adapters and there were none available as you say for Volkswagens (save for the B5 Passat's ZF box)

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they said that they had to buy a 1000.00 adapter kit just for vw.i saw the kit to and it is full adapters.