Post fix warranty claim

So I am the proud new owner of a 2013 Q7 that was bought back from someone, fixed, and then sold to me. I had a Touareg that was bought back so I understand the settlement.

I noticed a drip of oil on the garage floor and though it would be no worries, that’s covered. Take it to Audi and they say cool, no problem. They then find out the previous owner had a tune in the vehicle and said that would typically void a warranty. I have not had a tuner on the vehicle while I have had it and no tuner has been in it since the emission modification has been performed.

Audi dealer is taking it up with Audi Germany and we are waiting to hear back, I would assume that since no tuner has been installed since the emission modification, they still have to stand behind that warranty?

They confirmed upper oil pan gasket is leaking and want to pull the engine with 50 hours of labor on the estimate.

What do you guys think?

TD1 voids the warranty. Did you buy it directly from Audi?

No I did not buy from Audi. What is TD1? So even though no tuner has been on it since the fix was applied and while I have owned it, the extended class action warranty is void?

Let us know what Audi does. If they balk, you may have to get advice from a class settlement lawyer. I am not sure what I think of the matter from Audi’s point of view, but I’d hate for you to get shafted.

In my opinion, since it has the fix applied, they have to stand behind the warranty of the fix as long as I don't do anything to void the current warranty. We with see if Audi agrees. If not I will see what the class action lawyers have to say about it.

Audi does not warranty after market tunes.

Evidently someone between the fix and the repair put a tune on it or at least Audi thinks so. What kind of dealer was it you bought from? They would be suspect or someone there if you didn't put it on there. This is TD1:

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7492

I have not put an aftermarket tune on the vehicle. The tune currently in the vehicle is the same tune it has had on it since Audi did the emission modification to it for the lawsuit.

The previous owner before me had an aftermarket tune on it at one point but that was before the "fix"

Still waiting for a response from Audi Germany on the matter.

Did you knowingly buy a previously tuned TD1 car?

Is the fix sticker under the hood where it belongs? It is my understanding that the TD1 is set when tunes are detected. It is unknown whether this is reset when the dealer flashes it for the part one fix. Or maybe the fix hasn't really been done. Check for the sticker. It will be interesting to hear what they respond with. If they declare the damage done as prior to the fix and only now being found. Keep us informed.

All this talk of TD1 is not likely to be relevant. Audi would have to demonstrate how the alleged tune affected the otherwise warrantied failure. That is, how could a tune cause an oil pan leak? It's going to be difficult to demonstrate cause and effect relationship, so while the dealership was probably being cautious I don't think you should panic.

The dealer can refuse and then it is up to you to keep after them. It is a huge hassle to pursue when they refuse. They don't really have to prove anything until you get to court. By then you have already lost on small things like this. On principle you are correct. In reality it is a real pain to do what you say.

Good luck OP! This sounds like a raw deal. You buy a vehicle which has been fixed by VAG and resold with an assumed extended warranty per the settlement. And now they try to claim that the car they resold (at auction) was sold with a voided extended warranty.

Meanwhile I don't see anything that a consumer could reasonably do to make sure they were buying a car that had not been previously tuned before the fix. I hope that they come to their senses and realize it is in their best interest to simply step up and fix your car.

bizzle said:

All this talk of TD1 is not likely to be relevant. Audi would have to demonstrate how the alleged tune affected the otherwise warrantied failure. That is, how could a tune cause an oil pan leak? It's going to be difficult to demonstrate cause and effect relationship, so while the dealership was probably being cautious I don't think you should panic.

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Anything that *changes* the performance isn't covered, and Audi doesn't have to demonstrate anything to deny coverage. How could it cause a leak? Because the tune stressed the engine outside design tolerances. That's all Audi needs to say, and they don't even need to go that far. A tune is not the same as an after-market part, it's an engine modification.

Now, I agree that the extended warranty should still be in effect... If the tune was in place before the emissions mod, Audi should have refused to do the mod.

Lightflyer1 said:

Is the fix sticker under the hood where it belongs? It is my understanding that the TD1 is set when tunes are detected. It is unknown whether this is reset when the dealer flashes it for the part one fix. Or maybe the fix hasn't really been done. Check for the sticker. It will be interesting to hear what they respond with. If they declare the damage done as prior to the fix and only now being found. Keep us informed.

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Does anyone know where these stickers are placed, or have pictures of them on the car. The only picture I have been able to find does not show where the sticker is actually placed.


Is it somewhere on the underside of the hood, is it not a standardized location across all of the fixed cars?

fredthe said:

Anything that *changes* the performance isn't covered, and Audi doesn't have to demonstrate anything to deny coverage. How could it cause a leak? Because the tune stressed the engine outside design tolerances. That's all Audi needs to say, and they don't even need to go that far. A tune is not the same as an after-market part, it's an engine modification.

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Magnusson Moss Warranty Act... nuff said

MMWA states this:

"Further, under the act, aftermarket equipment that improves performance does not automatically void a vehicle manufacturer’s original warranty, unless the warranty clearly states the addition of aftermarket equipment automatically voids your vehicle’s warranty, or if it can be proven that the aftermarket device is the direct cause of the failure."

and another relevant posting on Stage 3 Motorsports blog on tuning and warranty and MMWA:

Stage 3 Blog
Blog Home
[UPDATED]Stage 3's Stance on Tuning and Your Vehicle's Warranty
Posted by Jason Locke on 3/18/2014 to Informative Articles
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By far and away the most frequently asked question when it comes to performance tuning of a given vehicle's Powertrain Control Module (PCM) or Engine Control Unit (ECU) is "will this void my warranty?" The short answer is yes, unequivocally and absolutely yes. Performance software tuning of your vehicle's computer will practically always void and Powertrain Warranty that your car or truck may or may not have. "But Stage 3," you say, "what about the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act, running the vehicle through a drive cycle before I go into the dealer, or running down my battery to hide my tune?" There are some ways where you're still protected and ways that you can possibly hide a performance tune from the prying eyes of Ford and your dealership. So the long answer to the initial question is "yes, but..." The fact is that the whole tuning/warranty situation is pretty sticky and complex, but there is a good reason that we at Stage 3 tell you that your warranty will definitely be voided while the other guys beat around the bush or even lie through their teeth: we're looking out for you and your vehicle's best interest.

SCT X4 Handheld Tuner
First, what does it actually mean when a "warranty is voided" by a tune. Well, your car or truck is covered by a manufacturer's warranty for basically every single component on your vehicle of choice. The specific warranty in question is your vehicle's Powertrain Warranty covering your engine, transmission, driveline, and their various components. When a warranty is "voided", it's specifically related to your vehicle's Powertrain and its related components. Meaning if you tune your vehicle and your window regulator goes out, your window regulator would still be replaced under warranty, given that it's not a system that's effected by a tune. So, when we say your vehicle's warranty is voided by a tune, it doesn't mean that Ford and your dealership will completely kick you to the curb. They just won't cover any Powertrain-related repair of replacement if they discover that your vehicle has a performance tune in it or has ran performance tuning in the past.

Now, you may hear something or other about being protected by the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975, which you technically are, since the Act requires a burden of proof from the manufacturer or dealer that a particular aftermarket part, accessory, or tune led to an engine failure or other issue. That being said, Ford and dealerships have much more money and a much larger legal team than you, and a drawn-out court battle with a judge that may or may not understand some of the finer points of the aftermarket or tuning will more than likely cost you more than new motor and still leave you footing the bill for full crate engine or long block if something catastrophic did in fact occur. So, while you're technically "protected" to some extent, the real-world practical issues leave a lot to be desired. Still, if you put a tune in your vehicle, but have a problem with something that is totally unrelated to the tune or powertrain (i.e. your window regulator, door locks, A/C, power steering, etc.), then those repairs would be covered.

https://www.stage3motorsports.com/Stage-3s-Stance-Tuning-Your-Vehicles-Warranty.html

The way he described the dealership interaction, they pulled the flag from his VIN records and not from a scan. What they seem to be telling him, from the information provided so far, is that the flag would normally void the original powertrain warranty. Keep in mind, however, that the dealership would know when that TD1 flag occurred (unless they discovered it during a scan when he brought it in--it's difficult to say whether he is telling them the previous owner tuned the car or they are telling him a previous owner tuned the car, but from the comments it seems more likely that they are telling him the previous owner tuned the car and they would know that based on the VIN flag time stamp) and at issue may not be the original powertrain warranty but the court mandated warranty as part of the settlement.

The TD1 checksum will have a timestamp. It's not relevant to his warranty coverage. In any case, this is an oil pan leak and I very seriously doubt Audi is going to spend the few thousand dollars responding to an attorney's letter let alone any hours prepping for anything remotely like a trial...but stranger things have happened.

Lightflyer, you might find it interesting that Audi's warranty states that damage due to aftermarket tuning will not be covered under warranty but in a separate section titled as reasons to void the warranty without reinstatement modifications are not listed as a reason.

fredthe said:

Anything that *changes* the performance isn't covered, and Audi doesn't have to demonstrate anything to deny coverage. How could it cause a leak? Because the tune stressed the engine outside design tolerances. That's all Audi needs to say, and they don't even need to go that far. A tune is not the same as an after-market part, it's an engine modification.
Now, I agree that the extended warranty should still be in effect... If the tune was in place before the emissions mod, Audi should have refused to do the mod.

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I'm sure this is somewhere on my list of "Reasons why I'm doing the buyback and not the fix." And add to that "Why I won't buy a fixed car."
And as a later poster notes, if it comes to an actual showdown there's no doubt who will have the largest legal battalions.....

Rico567 said:

I'm sure this is somewhere on my list of "Reasons why I'm doing the buyback and not the fix." And add to that "Why I won't buy a fixed car."
And as a later poster notes, if it comes to an actual showdown there's no doubt who will have the largest legal battalions.....

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Also sadly, a lesson in why buying a used car requires extra research and caution, particularly when buying from a third party dealer.

Mythdoc said:

Also sadly, a lesson in why buying a used car requires extra research and caution, particularly when buying from a third party dealer.

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Huge plus 1. Audi does not warranty ignorance.

bizzle said:

The way he described the dealership interaction, they pulled the flag from his VIN records and not from a scan. What they seem to be telling him, from the information provided so far, is that the flag would normally void the original powertrain warranty. Keep in mind, however, that the dealership would know when that TD1 flag occurred (unless they discovered it during a scan when he brought it in--it's difficult to say whether he is telling them the previous owner tuned the car or they are telling him a previous owner tuned the car, but from the comments it seems more likely that they are telling him the previous owner tuned the car and they would know that based on the VIN flag time stamp) and at issue may not be the original powertrain warranty but the court mandated warranty as part of the settlement.

The TD1 checksum will have a timestamp. It's not relevant to his warranty coverage. In any case, this is an oil pan leak and I very seriously doubt Audi is going to spend the few thousand dollars responding to an attorney's letter let alone any hours prepping for anything remotely like a trial...but stranger things have happened.

Lightflyer, you might find it interesting that Audi's warranty states that damage due to aftermarket tuning will not be covered under warranty but in a separate section titled as reasons to void the warranty without reinstatement modifications are not listed as a reason.

Click to expand...

I am sure Audi has lawyers on staff who can handle this kind of thing in the early stages at least, without any additional cost on their part.

Seems like a lot of detail is missing from this story yet.

Lower driver corner of the hood. IE When the hood is up it should be right in front of where you would look out the window while driving.

bizzle:

You are correct, the TD1 flag came from the VIN records on file, service advisor brought this to my attention well before the vehicle was even checked in for the service visit. I agree, this would typically void the original factory warranty which has expired on time and miles anyway. The dispute is whether or not this has voided the court ordered warranty extension since ZERO mods have been done since the "fix" has been done. The "fix" tune is still in place and has not been touched since.

I agree, I should have done more to look into the history of this vehicle in addition to the hours I had already spent looking into everything else. A quick email to the service department of the servicing dealer would have come up with the results. The MMWA in my belief covers aftermarket replacement parts and not performance parts.

An update:
Car is still sitting outside at the dealer waiting on a response from Germany. I have been in a 2018 Q7 loaner for the past week and I do have the perception that the service adviser is doing all that he can to help.

Leaking oil though is not covered by the court ordered warranty and could be construed as caused/stressed by the tune on it previously and only noticed now. I would bet they refuse to honor anything for this issue. But they may feel generous and trying to up their image some. Who knows?

"Leaking oil" may not be considered covered under the warranty but the long-block is though. According to my dealer, the upper pan gasket falls under the long-block category and my dealer is using a related TSB and other instances of these gaskets getting covered under the extended long block warranty as leverage in my favor.

Apparently early build 2013s have this as a fairly common problem, some are more of a seep and never make it to a drip on the ground, and some are more like mine where it is a drip or two or more on the floor each night.

Additionally, oil leaks ARE typically covered under this extended warranty. Turbo leaks could grossly be translated to a failed turbo, turbo is covered. Rear main seal is considered long block and is covered etc.

I can see it from their side though as the tuner adding stress to the seals via additional blow-by and crankcase pressures but this leaking seal is not unique to mine, several other never tuned vehicles have had the same issue.

Still waiting to hear word from Germany.

Good luck on that then. Had any of the others you mentioned with this problem had the TD1 issue though? The long block is only considered for emissions items if I read it correctly. Leaking oil isn't an emissions issue. It also said an OBDII code must be set. You haven't said anything about codes. I still say they can easily say it is/was caused by a performance tune having been used and not anything emissions related, thus not covered. But I hope it comes through for you! I hear those beasts are expensive to work on. 50 hours labor, wow. I guess the engine must come out.

No and that is where my issue is, the TD1 flag and whether or not that is relevant to the new extended emissions warranty. Nope it doesn’t have to be emissions related either, the warranty is in place to help protect the consumer in the event the new fix stresses other things not necessarily emissions related. One could argue the fix added crankcase pressures via increased egr that would have blown out the seal.

The warranty covers most things that throw an obdII code but isn’t limited to only things that throw codes. I have spent all free time reading every document there is and I have come to the conclusion that the repair would normally be covered indefinitely and the dealer agrees. We just need Germany’s perspective on whether they feel a previous TD1 flag pertains to the new warranty. This is a fun ride... only new or CPO for me in the future...

You don't need to only buy CPO or new, VAG needs to uphold their warranty terms.

Have you contacted class counsel? This is out of bounds behavior by Audi and has problematic implications counsel should be made aware of.

Fur example, if a previous owner or even someone at the dealership decided to flash a car, even a new or CPO wouldn't have any warranty. I don't think td1 shows in vcds so there isn't even any way for a costumer to protect himself.

The warranty info I received from VW (you can find the same info on the vwcourtsettlement.com website) says on page 9 of 11 (in the pdf version it is page 12 of 14) "Conflicts concerning the warranty are to be resolved in favor of the consumer." If the Audi head honchos aren't cooperative, call the class action attorneys. Maybe go ahead and call them now, instead of waiting. Dealership already said no, it's time for the lawyers.