Common Rail injectors

v8 coupe

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to add onto what Rub87 was asking can new nozzles for the stock injectors even be gotten to be modified by edm or extrude honing? I'm not sure anyone is at that point yet that the stok injectors are the choking point, but it is coming. I am just trying to plan ahead for mine which will get there eventually.

The HPFP is the current choke point that is an entirely different topic, one that has been discussed already, but as technology improves more options may become available.
 

turbobrick240

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There are a couple hpfp upgrade options. I have a cp3 on my car. I think headflow is one of the major choke points at this time. My understanding is the 16 valve head design doesn't leave a lot of room for aggressive porting.
 

Rub87

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sure, a lot if to be gained in head. I have one car that is out of injector, lambda 1.2 at 4k with 100 mg, egt +900.. could run more timing but its not the right way, this is with stock head. its already running over 2k bar railpress. soon I will have another car that will have plenty of more air so I think there is definately a big market for such nozzles.
 

v8 coupe

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There are a couple hpfp upgrade options. I have a cp3 on my car. I think headflow is one of the major choke points at this time. My understanding is the 16 valve head design doesn't leave a lot of room for aggressive porting.
How exactly are these heads restricted compared to the ALHs? yes bigger valves don't exist yet and there is not much room for them, but there is still room for porting. Just matching the inlets of the ports to the stock plastic based intake manifold can improve flow. the biggest thing that is holding aggressive porting from happening is the swirl port. if you are willing to deal with low RPM lag of torque and that isn't going to be a killer go for it.

The 16v head in stock form still is a major improvement over the ALH and PD150 heads. The CR engines choke point is the HPFP once that has been addressed in multiple ways the next is the injectors. I'm not saying the CP3's are better than the CP4.1s but the CP4.1 is limited out of the box. From what I am seeing on the Duramax and PS engines with the CP4.2s they are being upgraded to 33% and 55% over sized units. I'm not sure yet if these same tricks can be used on the CP4.1s yet, but from the architecture I've seen it very easily could be. Heck just putting the CP4.2 cam in the CP4.1 should yield an improvement.


No one has yet commented on my hypothetical engine running the same Turbo Ryan is running on his 16v PD engine. I know that would take all the stock fueling system to it' very limits.
 

Drivbiwire

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now gets back to commonrail nozzles. DBW, could you maybe find in the Bosch catalog a nozzle with similar length (few thenths difference could be compensated with washer thickness) and spray angle that flows a considerable amount more? this would do away all the concern caused by nozzle to nozzle deviation when modifying a existing nozzle.
You'd have to start with a new nozzle blank...easiest way.

Nothing in the calibration library lists dimensions.

The other reference I haves uses the factory part numbers, which never reference the laser etched references on the nozzles. Lately some are starting to correlate, so this previous trend may be reversing by Bosch.

The other issue is that there are so many variations in injector types that very few nozzles are cross compatible. Differences like needle depth, port alignment, sealing ring dimensions, DLC placement, and many more.

The bottom line is the days are long gone where you can find something close and make it work in another platform.they always seem to make a significant variation in design that makes it physically impossible to use in another application.

So this brings us back to being far easier to just start with a new nozzle and spec it from there.

 

Rub87

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Ok, please get started then.. Market will be no problem once you have good reproducibility and relatively good fitting duration map.

The duration map can be made/verified in car when you have accurate HFM and lambda sensor and EGR working to bring lambda in good accuracy range of the sensor at small quantities. (lambda 1-2)
 

v8 coupe

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des anyone know the number of holes, size, and angle they are spraying in the stock nozzles? also can replacement nozzles for these injectors even be sourced from Bosch? yes making new ones might be the best way to produce a mass quantity, but what about a limited production run like 3-4 sets for trial?
 

Drivbiwire

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des anyone know the number of holes, size, and angle they are spraying in the stock nozzles? also can replacement nozzles for these injectors even be sourced from Bosch? yes making new ones might be the best way to produce a mass quantity, but what about a limited production run like 3-4 sets for trial?
For the same reasons I won't sell loose nozzles, Bosch does not release nozzles to the public.

Hole size, listen up so we can put this to bed once and for all.

Nozzles are NOT produced using hole size as any reference ever.

Hole size does NOT correlate to flow volume.

Hole size IS NEVER referenced for any reputable nozzle, EVER.

A good example, a cheap knock off nozzle with ".234" holes flows less than a stock Bosch ".184" nozzle, you know why? Because the cheap knock off was raw EDM'd resulting in so much cavitation that the fuel created a vapor block killing peak flow volume.

There is a lot more to making nozzles than just melting a hole in the metal and declaring you have "big holes".

I have the flow data on the US spec 140hp TDI's measuring the raw flow characteristics. I'll see what numbers I can work up and make some simple correlations of nozzle types.

As far as I can tell it makes no difference whether you use a piezo or solenoid injector for peak performance. The piezo does have a few advantages in regards to actuation times, thus better delivery control at the upper pressure and rpm ranges.

Now, Off to my day job....
 
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Rub87

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Would it be possible to set the injector up for more flow without changing the nozzle, like kind of a stage 1 soluton for people who just want a little extra fuel?

Like audi did for example in the 3.0 biturbo


To increase the hydraulic pressure on the injector nozzle and so enhance the engine’s​
performance potential without impacting negatively on the untreated emissions potential of​
the fuel injection system, the throttle bore in the injector throttle plate has been enlarged by​
20 % (see Figure 14). This measure, retaining an unchanged nozzle flow rate, was one of​
the factors in boosting the performance of the new V6 TDI relative to its predecessor.​
I agree that just hole dameter or nozzle flow is not specified in bosch documentation, but maybe there is a specification for injector flow at certain conditions, this would also be a good guideline to select a few high flowing injector apllications and then compare nozzle geometrie to find out if or not they me be able to fit a VW injector body.​
 

Drivbiwire

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I can do one better, I can mount the throttle plates and measure the ISO 4113 fluid flow thru them. That way we get a direct read on flow at the restrictor.

One thing to keep in mind is that modifying the htdraulics may lead to increased injector leak back, this could put you closer to volume/pressure limits at the top end.

Easy to check!
 

ryanp

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you can get like 50% doing that Rub
 

diffas

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Well dang.

I've just swapped all my injectors to my BKN and ran into trouble. Injectors came out from CCWA. Car does not accept the IMA code for one cylinder. Is there any logic known around the codes if I can try some nearest available for example? Or need I just wait that it automatically adapt itself?
 

KERMA

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Just an educated guess based on limited info, but maybe the range of adjustments specified in that particular IMA code falls outside the allowed range that is specified in the ECU.

Each ECU has an allowed "range" of adjustments, included in the calibration data (aka "maps"). They include: the pilot injection quantity range, full load quantity range, low idle quantity range, emissions relevant quantity range (aka post injection) and various electro/mechanical baseline adjustments based on factory test data for each individual injector.

Easy solution we do with modified injectors: just use the old values (from the stock injectors) and turn off the IMA/IVA learning in the ecu. Or alternately, change the "mapping" so that the ecu allows the wider adjustment range that's appropriate for the larger injectors. You will likely get a "deer in the headlights" look from your "remapper" when you mention this, though. So just use the values from your stock injectors, done.

Else turn off learning then enter the "neutral" values for IMA/IVA (which escapes me at the moment)
 

Rub87

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Well dang.

I've just swapped all my injectors to my BKN and ran into trouble. Injectors came out from CCWA. Car does not accept the IMA code for one cylinder. Is there any logic known around the codes if I can try some nearest available for example? Or need I just wait that it automatically adapt itself?
not so hard to change if you know what to look for. nonetheless usually with different inj generation its usually not only the IMA limits which are changed but also the voltage setpoint and PID parammeter for the current.

all this being said 9 odds out of 10 it works equally good without touching anything than trying to adapt all this stuff from a newer generation, as in for examle passat 240 inj into a cbbb style ecu.
 

diffas

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Have to ask if it is possible to change adjustment range from ecu or drop the IMA learning. Nevertheless I did try change first number out from (7->8) IMA, instantly ecu accepted it. Seems it helped with idle and overall a bit. Haha, really no clue what it did. After injector change Hatemi had some hard late night hours working on ecu but time just ran out to find final tune. Seems quite a big work doing such a swap after all. We also put 2700bar sensor only to find out that oe pressure regulator won't take 2000bar. Need to change it, too.

Also as side note the reason I changed the injectors was old ones were quite finished after 400kkm on the tacho. So why not go bigger and better ones. Also with this setup it should be possible to get more out of the engine with that bv50.
 

altz1

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Why pressure regulator cant take 2000bar, what part number is your regulator?
 

diffas

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I think its just old and designed for lower pressure. Just a tought. 057130764B
 
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Rub87

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need 2.0 or ccwa style regualtor. this will make all the pressure u need.

old style v6 up to capa-spec only makes around 1800 bar at 1.6 amps.
 

Macradiators.com

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I have some good passat b8 bitdi regulators if you need to experiment with. we couldnt get them to work unfortunately.
 

diffas

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need 2.0 or ccwa style regualtor. this will make all the pressure u need.

old style v6 up to capa-spec only makes around 1800 bar at 1.6 amps.
Yes that was the plan. OE part number for it is 057130764H correct?
 

Rub87

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Possible, im not the PN guy.

afaik 2.0 240hp regulator has no real advantage over early 2,0 style, in terms or max pressure. (unless you wanna go to a scary pressure level). it has altough a different fitment to rail and thus user is forced to use the whole 240hp rail.
 

Macradiators.com

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Yeah, i had to cut the fitting part of the regulator and weld it to my rail in order to test. was ok at high rpm not good at low..holes are also bigger.
 

Bigtoy302

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Any more news? I want to make 300-325hp. Ported head, valves, springs, cams, CP3 big turbo etc. Not seeing anything besides Darksides 400hp injector set for $$$$

Trying to stay with the stock ECU.
 

Macradiators.com

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What kind of injectors do you have? Cyl head is it oval port or round.
There are alternatives to the expensive darkside, just need to do some r&d.
 

Bigtoy302

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I checked a Diesel shop and they can extrude hone them but won't go over 20%. Waiting to here back from another.
 

Macradiators.com

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You checked the wrong company.
is 170mm3 enough for you? That's about 140mg good for little over 400hp depending on rpm where you inject.
 
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iModAMD

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Any more news? I want to make 300-325hp. Ported head, valves, springs, cams, CP3 big turbo etc. Not seeing anything besides Darksides 400hp injector set for $$$$
Trying to stay with the stock ECU.
If I remember , darkside has upgraded injectors ?
 

Bigtoy302

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You checked the wrong company.
is 170mm3 enough for you? That's about 140mg good for little over 400hp depending on rpm where you inject.
What injectors? That's what this thread is about. What's out there that can work? Or what shop can make them flow AND hold balance to sub 2%.

Dose not have to be drop in but Piezo to run off the EDC17 ecu. Maybe the T5 transporter ones? They flow 20% more right?

I own a fab/machine shop so custom mods are not a issue:D

I will be doing my own tuning in Winols.
 
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