'09 and later TDIs to be effectively banned in Iowa?

ikendu

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Fst-switchback said:
Easy now boy!
I lived in Ft McMurray for 30 years!
A square mile of borialis forest in that area would be lucky to produce enough lumber to build and heat about 4 log cabins!
...If you wre to fly over the tar sand mines in a small plane you would get about 15 minutes of vidio before you have to do a u turn...:D
Well, it is good to hear an account from someone that lives there (I live in Iowa). Although, its the first time I've heard the situation framed quite like this: "Don't worry too much about the boreal forest. Amazonian forest is way nicer than the forest we are destroying in Canada!" Interesting take. :)

YouTube has a nice fly over produced from Google Earth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plcWmMsS7T4

Notice the large holding ponds (these are big). Hmmm... what's in there? I believe it is water that was once pure and fresh, but now is toxic from being used to cook tar out of the sand. Seems to me I remember reading about ducks or geese that land on these ponds and die. Probably no big deal.

YouTube...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aGVcoyIFnM

Funny thing about water. It tends to flow all over the Earth, carrying whatever it has picked along the way to other places. Kinda like the MTBE that got into the water supply in so many places.

Someday, the Tar Sand will be depleted. Then we will have a left over legacy. I wonder what the water table will be like?

The funny thing is, oil will run out some day. When it does, we'll have to figure out other ways to move our cars around. I bet we do. I wonder if we should just wait until then to do anything?
 

ikendu

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aja8888 said:
...we import more crude from Canada than ANY OTHER country (yes, more than Saudi Arabia, aka, ARAMCO).:rolleyes:
That is very true. And... that oil from the middle east is a big problem for us. Adds $5 to every gallon of fuel we use, just from the military cost of protecting the flow (money that comes right out of our pockets). Although, earlier in this thread, someone mentioned comparing one bad to another?

We will be switching away from oil as it dwindles. Along the way, we will fight more wars, pollute more water, destroy more environment, etc. In the end though, we will figure out some other way to move our cars around. Perhaps some way that doesn't depend on a dwindling resource imported from far away.

If we wait, someone benefits. I'm sure the oil companies would like to delay that transition as long as possible. But... the transition will happen, none the less. I guess we can just wait. I mean, what might we gain from switching early? Hmm.... Ah, well. Much easier to simply go back to watching American Idol and let it all roll on.

Huh. I wonder if the energy companies ever buy ads on American Idol? :D

Edit: Hey! I googled this. Look's like Ford is a big sponsor.
http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEmhynmsoGHFpu
 
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ikendu

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Fst-switchback said:
...The other sites are pushing steam down into the ground to extract oil on a slower basis but the ground above is unaffected...
I mentioned to my wife this little discussion and she pointed me to some recent National Geographic pictures about the Tar Sands.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/03/canadian-oil-sands/essick-photography

One quote from one of the pictures:

"While yawning pit mines provide striking examples of the oil industry's appetite, most of Alberta's bitumen—an estimated 80 percent—lies too deep for surface mining. Facilities like Suncor's Firebag operation retrieve it by pumping scalding steam into the deposits, which separates the bitumen from the sand, water, and clay. The bitumen slurry collects in a well and is then piped to the upgrading facility. The Firebag operation gathers some 40,000 barrels of raw bitumen each day. In situ pumping requires more energy and emits more greenhouse gases than surface mining, but consumes far less forest. Oil companies say they are searching for ways to extract deep bitumen using more eco-friendly processes."

I wonder if it matters that it takes more energy to extract the tar and emits more greenhouse gases?

I wonder if those "collection wells" create a pathway for toxins to get into the water table? Hmmm...

Probably my last post on this topic. :)

For those that wish to know more... plenty of resources on the web.
 
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Josboy

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soy diesel

IKENDU
quote"There isn't enough soy biodiesel to "save the Earth" but I don't get any claims about environmental destruction.
I respectfully disagree. There is a lot that is green about soy biodiesel. I've cut my CO2 emissions by 56% in the last six years while using 100% biodiesel. In my '03 Golf it runs smoother, quieter and pollutes far less than dino diesel. Pretty green. Long term? We need better and more plentiful sources for biodiesel that don't compete with food in any way.''
factor in the "secondhand smoke effect"......soy feed = cattle farts = methane=global warming.
 

MBoni

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To return the the original topic of this thread, I suspect that the 2009 TDI engine runs just fine on 20% biodiesel, as long as the oil change interval is strictly adhered to, or perhaps shortened slightly.

The B5 limit was chosen as a balance between two forces: higher limits increase the oil contamination risk, and lower limits make the car impractical to drive in many states.

So, VW could easily accommodate states such as Iowa with a subtle adjustment in their warranty: up to B20 is allowed as long as documentation is provided for oil changes with an 8-10k(?) interval.

The burden then falls on VW to figure out exactly what the safe oil change interval should be, rather on leaving the customers to guess. VW would clearly prefer to have longer intervals for multiple reasons, but it's quite reasonable to state different intervals for different driving conditions (which is how gassers are generally handled anyways).
 

ikendu

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Josboy said:
factor in the "secondhand smoke effect"......soy feed = cattle farts = methane=global warming.
Hey! This is very true! (and most people don't know it) I salute your knowledge! :)

"Industrial" meat raising is estimated to account for 18% of the global warming impact (largely from the methane produced from both ends of the animals).

Although, I don't think we should lay our society's desire for more meat at the feet of those people that want to use soy biodiesel as a better alternative to dino diesel. Heck, we could be diverting that soy protein from animal feed to direct consumption of soy based foods (soy sausage, burgers, tofu, etc.). Bennigan's used to offer a veggie burger (since off the menu rotation) that was so close to meat that I doubt if anyone could have noticed the difference.

Here is a NY Times food writer (who is not a vegetarian) that advocates eating 2 out of 3 meals meatless (to reduce our societal consumption of meat) and eat whatever you want in that third meal. A 2/3s reduction would be huge!
http://www.vegan.com/blog/2009/03/06/bittman-on-colbert/

You are correct sir! Industrial animal raising is a BIG effect.
 
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mrchaotica

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DoctorDawg said:
One of the things that worries me about initiatives such as Iowa's: remember how VW decided in 2007-2008 that selling TDIs in the U.S. wasn't worth the trouble until it had a 50-state legal model? Well, if individual states start passing laws that make TDIs unsellable in some states, might VW just decide the same thing again, concluding that they don't want to sell into a market with 50 different moving targets? States' rights be damned...let's have one set of rules for motor fuels, please.
There's a big difference between Iowa and California. California is the most populous state in the US by far, with 11.95% of the population (about 37 million people). In contrast, Iowa only has 1% of the population (about 3 million people). In fact, even Los Angeles by itself -- and that's only incorporated LA, not the metro area -- has a million more people than Iowa!

So, hopefully you can see now the point I'm about to make: having California -- and worse yet, California plus the other CARB-compliant states, such as New York -- disallow the car completely screws VW and makes it not worth trying to sell it at all. But if Iowa by itself disallows it, it's irrelevant because Iowa's market is negligible compared to the rest of the US.
 

Lug_Nut

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Why can't greater than 5% bio be used? Because of the DPF and the post-injection process.
What are the DPF and post injection for? To clean up the filth and soot from using petrodiesel.
Why can't cleaner fuel be used, eliminating the need for the DPF and post injection that prevent the use of cleaner fuel? Because the cleaner fuel doesn't support the post-injection combustion process.

Talk about circular "logic"...

Imagine if the '09 DPF components could be eliminated from the car entirely by switching to a fuel that produces less particulate.

You wish to use petrodiesel, you have to use the DPF, and can't use bio.
You wish to use biodiesel, you have to rip out the DPF and can't use any petro.
Ahh...If only it were that easy.
 
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whitedog

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Lug_Nut said:
Why can't greater than 5% bio be used? Because of the DPF and the post-injection process.
What are the DPF and post injection for? To clean up the filth and soot from using petrodiesel.
Why can't cleaner fuel be used, eliminating the need for the DPF and post injection that prevent the use of cleaner fuel? Because the cleaner fuel doesn't support the post-injection combustion process.

Talk about circular "logic"...
Wouldn't we call that a Catch-22?
 

DoctorDawg

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ikendu said:
Heck, we could be diverting that soy protein from animal feed to direct consumption of soy based foods (soy sausage, burgers, tofu, etc.). Bennigan's used to offer a veggie burger (since off the menu rotation) that was so close to meat that I doubt if anyone could have noticed the difference.
:( I'd rather drown under rising sea levels than eat that cr@p.

Believe me, I'd notice the difference.

And BTW, farts happen. Feed soybeans to cows and they fart. Or feed those same soybeans to people and they fart. At least I don't have to spend most of my time in enclosed spaces with a bunch of cows.
 

mrchaotica

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DoctorDawg said:
:( I'd rather drown under rising sea levels than eat that [soy] cr@p.

Believe me, I'd notice the difference.
The key to soy-eating for carnivores (like myself) is to not try to pretend that it's meat. I much prefer to eat tofu for tofu's sake than to have a disappointing fake hamburger. And yes, tofu can be good... with a strong enough marinade. (The tofu at Moe's Southwest Grill is a good example of this.)
 

ikendu

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DoctorDawg said:
:( I'd rather drown under rising sea levels than eat that cr@p.
Believe me, I'm under no illusions that everyone will embrace eating less meat. Same deal with getting off imported oil. Some folks just aren't interested. YMMV :) In many Asian cultures that traditionally consume minimal amounts of meat, as soon as those folks get more prosperous, they eat more meat. Hence the growing global problem. Not quite enough resources to go around for every one to live that "premium" life.n

If everyone on the planet lived like Americans... we'd need 4 Earths. Not do-able unless we invent warp drive.
 

TDIMeister

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Lug_Nut said:
Why can't greater than 5% bio be used? Because of the DPF and the post-injection process.
What are the DPF and post injection for? To clean up the filth and soot from using petrodiesel.
Why can't cleaner fuel be used, eliminating the need for the DPF and post injection that prevent the use of cleaner fuel? Because the cleaner fuel doesn't support the post-injection combustion process.

Talk about circular "logic"...

Imagine if the '09 DPF components could be eliminated from the car entirely by switching to a fuel that produces less particulate.
Switching to Biodiesel -- or any presently available fuel for that matter -- on current engine technology alone without any aftertreatment will not reduce PM and NOx below T2 B5. What's your solution?
 

invader

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besserheimerphat said:
Doesn't bio have some solvent effects that can damage plastic or rubber parts as well? I think it's not a problem for vehicles less than 5 or so years old, but there are a LOT of old vehicles and ag equipment that would potentially have to be rebuilt to keep seals and hoses from failing. Do they expect the consumer to pay for what appears to be another farm subsidy? Not all of us in Iowa grow beans. . .

I think it's not a problem for vehicles less than 5 or so years old
Try more like diesel's from the mid 90's on. I have been running B100, (home made), for three years now in my 97 ford Powerstroke. Never had a problem with any of the rubber parts.
 

The Chris

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So what happened when the US gov't banned leaded fuel? The automakers changed their engines to run on unleaded fuel. They wanted to be able to sell their cars so they produced cars that would run on the available fuel.

Why not just let the gov't mandate biodiesel and make the auto manufacturers adjust/modify their vehicles to run on it. Hell, what makes you think VW didn't design the 09s to be able to just take a flash in case new diesel regulations come into play? Surely, they had to have seen this coming. :cool:
 

kcfoxie

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I see a few things with this:

1) This is good. The Fed wants to move all Fed-owned Diesels to a 20% blend by like 2012 ... it's a close approaching date.. this is forcing auto makers to accept the alternative fuels (seriously, whose had a specific failure in a ALH or later TDI that was the biodiesel's fault?)

2) Biodiesel produced from soy can't save the world. Biodiesel produced from hemp using similar processes very much could. Factor in Algae and suddenly the only "limitation" is how much antigel. The 2-3MPG hit isn't a big deal for most consumers, even business consumers.

3) The state of Iowa would repair any vehicle damanged by their fuel mandate.

It always take a leader. I think this is a good move on their part. Do I think 20% is enough? no. I'd like a 50 to 70% blend, at those ratios it often does not gel (unless its animal fat, and due to the CDC and laws about fats, esp. human fats being considered biohazzardous, i doubt we're going to see a lot of fat-based fuels) in colder temps and it displaces that much more fossil fuel -- be it domestic or imported fossil product.

As a whole I think their move is pushing the issue. When I get a transmissionless electric that is powered by farts and sunshine, I'll give up on the manual/biodiesel.. not until (and if you don't laugh at the idea, methane gas is going to be as valuable in the future as natural gas is today).

One of my pet projects is attempted methane injection, or just making a diesel run off methane from composting w/ no diesel fuel at all. technically this is possible.

Also let's drop this whole "doesn't it break thing?" routine. Any diesel pre-1995 thats on the road has already had its IP repaired at least once during our two major sulphur-reduction changes in diesel fuel -- either in the 90s when we moved to 550ppm or in the last 2 years when we moved to 15ppm diesel fuel. Forget not that 5ppm is in the pipeline, still.

I was shown some rather convincing looking documents from a known diesel maker who use FAME Biodiesel in a simulated 60,000 mile test and the injectors looked bad. They concluded that by the 70k mile mark the vehicle would be underperforming and need the injectors replaced.

I stopped using Bio (due to price, and political reasons) at 62,000 in my Jetta. I logged a successful 60k with B100, no less than B20 at any time, and now at 82,000 I'm back on bio (this time WVO based and not animal fat based). Economy did drop a little, but peoples jaws still drop when I say "570 miles the light comes on."

At the end of the day I'd rather use a domestic, renewable product. Despite the economy I've always been able to buy biodiesel; the feedstocks never ran out -- but the price got to the point where it was just not cost effective anymore (I can't just stop going to work, even if I want to make a politcal/economic point).

Those who think that it's impossible to make FAME-type Biodiesel on a large scale are the same who think we cannot run the country off Wind and Solar power alone (and the facts are, we surely could -- and make a two-way grid at the same time, power failures become a thing of the past, and the power company serves only to connect "pipes" to homes in communities and communities to communities, they don't supply the product in the pipe anymore).

But I'm the wacko. What do I know ? :D

IMO...... of course.
 

kcfoxie

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The Chris said:
So what happened when the US gov't banned leaded fuel? The automakers changed their engines to run on unleaded fuel. They wanted to be able to sell their cars so they produced cars that would run on the available fuel.

Why not just let the gov't mandate biodiesel and make the auto manufacturers adjust/modify their vehicles to run on it. Hell, what makes you think VW didn't design the 09s to be able to just take a flash in case new diesel regulations come into play? Surely, they had to have seen this coming. :cool:
This is the same company that said all automatics sold from 1999 to 2004 had lifetime transmission fluid that never needed to be replaced. You have more faith than I do in them.
 

kcfoxie

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No, I'm saying that the state SHOULD be required to repair damages caused by their laws.

I am unaware if they plan to, but it will be a lawyer's hayday when an entire fleet of 2008 Dodge Sprinters blow up and the business owner calls the legal team in after seeing the mechanic's report.....
 

grizzlydiesel

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the thing is, that the conversion to run on biodiesel shouldnt be too hard, I am personally waiting to hear from a british company making a car called the trident iceni,

http://www.trident-vehicles.co.uk/

who built this little rocketship using a chevy 6.6L duramax, which they say is biodiesel safe, but the chevy version obviously isnt. so im waiting to hear exactly what they did to convert it. could just be line heaters really, but non-the less, it shows that conversions are possible. i kinda question the numbers this thing puts out, but its a step in the right direction IMHO.
 

kcfoxie

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grizzlydiesel said:
the thing is, that the conversion to run on biodiesel shouldnt be too hard, I am personally waiting to hear from a british company making a car called the trident iceni,

http://www.trident-vehicles.co.uk/

who built this little rocketship using a chevy 6.6L duramax, which they say is biodiesel safe, but the chevy version obviously isnt. so im waiting to hear exactly what they did to convert it. could just be line heaters really, but non-the less, it shows that conversions are possible. i kinda question the numbers this thing puts out, but its a step in the right direction IMHO.
The difference is their willing to warranty a fuel that is uncommon.

Unless the 6.6L has a fancy DPF in the exhaust there is little to no reason it cannot burn Biodiesel in high grades. Even those who said the Peizo injectors in the 09 wouldn't work with B100 were proven wrong by those who wanted to prove that the motor can use B100, just the exhaust system of the 2009 won't allow it.

To convert to biodiesel you drive to a different pump, unless your car is old enough to vote -- then you might need to replace a fuel line or two.
 

Lug_Nut

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TDIMeister said:
Switching to Biodiesel -- or any presently available fuel for that matter -- on current engine technology alone without any aftertreatment will not reduce PM and NOx below T2 B5. What's your solution?
PM and NOx, or PM or NOx?
I believe the PM is low enough, but the NOx would remain a problem if it is necessary to reduce both.
Reducing the NOx requires a depleted O2 combustion. One possibility is greater percentages of EGR, say 95% EGR at idle down to zero at WOT.
"But all that soot at that high an EGR percent..." With petrodiesel, yes. It would quickly coat and accrete in the intake. but I believe biodiesel is low enough that the intake passage blockage condition of sooty petrodiesel would not occur.
It'd take an EGR cooler the size of the engine's radiator to drop that much air to a reasonable temperature, but then at idle there isn't that much fuel added heat to have to dissipate. Higher load and higher fueling that would create more heat, are the same conditions that use less EGR anyway.
An ECU controlled linked pair of antishudder plates, one closing as the other opens would allow the same mass of air, whether fresh 21% O2 through the air intake, or as low in O2 as needed to burn the amount of fuel by predominantly using cooled exhaust gas and letting that re-expand in the combustion with no O2 remaining.

Why? Because I command it to be possible.

Too bad we can't legislate the laws of physics.
 
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Pending. . .
The repair/warranty issue is my only problem with this legislation. I'm very much in agreement that a move to biofuels is a good thing, but I don't want to buy a new car and immediately lose warranty protection.
 

eb2143

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TDIMeister said:
Switching to Biodiesel -- or any presently available fuel for that matter -- on current engine technology alone without any aftertreatment will not reduce PM and NOx below T2 B5. What's your solution?
I always like numbers, so I made this up (not as in, "I pulled this out of my arse," this is not IMO stuff :D )


Should mention that the ALH B100 g/mi numbers are calculated from percent reductions expected with B100 use over petrodiesel as determined by the EPA...the g/mi should really be in ( ), as the g/mi were calculated from the percentages.

_So Meister is right...
• An ALH on B100 is still 3 times the T2 Bin 5 max for PM.
• NOx is 11 times the T2B5 legal limit on B100.
Benefits are obvious though, including in an area not shown, 80-90% reduction in polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons on B100, believed to be a principle mutagenic component of diesel exhaust.

It would be nice to see what a CBEA on B100 without aftertreatment would be, just for fun. To relate this to the OT:
1. Does a CBEA without aftertreatment on B20 or B100 meet T2B5? Probably not.
2. Can the new generation of common rails be made to operate on high % blends of biodiesel? It would seem not, given the current aftertreatment's design.
- With a different aftertreatment, i.e. separate downstream injection. Maybe?
- With no aftertreatment: Presently a moot point, because I don't see how PM and NOx would pass T2B5.

- So what is the future of biodiesel from a pratical standpoint, putting aside the food v. fuel debate? I tend to agree with DoctorDawg, I don't think mandates like this are going to push the common rail technology to be biodiesel friendly.
 
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Lug_Nut

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And if I don't like your data can I ignore it?
Please?

OK, so what happens with a doubling of EGR percentage (PM reduced by 1/2 should allow a doubling of EGR with no increase in intake buildup) and increased EGR cooling to match that, on an otherwise stock ALH running B100?

I can wait for the data. I can also keep pretending until then and can dismiss the data if it doesn't agree with what I want it to be.


The food vs. fuel argument I've addressed for my own purposes. I'm using garbage (B100 from post-consumer waste) for fuel.
 
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kcfoxie

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eb2143 said:
- With no aftertreatment: Presently a mute point, because I don't see how PM and NOx would pass T2B5.
.
MOOT point, it's a MOOT point... grrrr!!! Sorry, I just see "mute" point a lot on here. It's not a silent point, it's not a practical point!

Noun

Singular
moot point

Plural
moot points

moot point (plural moot points)
  1. An issue that is subject to, or open for discussion or debate, and which could only be definitively determined by an assembly of the people. Now that downtown has been rebuilt and business is booming, whether to build more parking spaces has become a moot point.
  2. (US) An issue regarded as potentially debatable, but no longer practically applicable. Although the idea may still be worth debating and exploring academically, and such discussion may be useful for addressing similar issues in the future, the idea has been rendered irrelevant for the present issue. Until we rebuild downtown, whether we build more parking spaces is a moot point.
 

grizzlydiesel

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so many grammar ****'s, so little time ;)

although a point on the data, the ALH wont meet bin 5 anyway, on D2, the B100 is still cleaner, even if it dosnt meet the Bin 5. So looking at those numbers, one could assume, that the 2009 CR would pass Bin 5 on B100, everything is good as is, but would go DOWN with the B100, except for NOx, which would rise by approximately 10%, call it 20% and its still .01g/mile below the Bin 5 standard. The only real question would be if the PM rating would allow the removal of the DPF.

which confuses me, if B100 lowers PM, why does it clog the DPF???? time for google.
 

kcfoxie

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grizzlydiesel said:
so many grammar ****'s, so little time ;)

although a point on the data, the ALH wont meet bin 5 anyway, on D2, the B100 is still cleaner, even if it dosnt meet the Bin 5. So looking at those numbers, one could assume, that the 2009 CR would pass Bin 5 on B100, everything is good as is, but would go DOWN with the B100, except for NOx, which would rise by approximately 10%, call it 20% and its still .01g/mile below the Bin 5 standard. The only real question would be if the PM rating would allow the removal of the DPF.

which confuses me, if B100 lowers PM, why does it clog the DPF???? time for google.
The PM that B100 puts off is different. Someone described cleaning their intake mani after long term B100 use as "a greyish gunk" that was easier to clean off than the Soot from the petrol diesel; but it was like a congealed fat (thats how I visualized it)... and it takes a higher temp than D2 to burn that crap off.

that's my understanding. anyone who wants to prove me wrong, i love to be educated.
 
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