www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You

Order your TDIClub merchandise and help support TDIClub


Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Fuels & Lubricants

Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 4th, 2019, 11:41   #3526
turbobrick240
Veteran Member
 
turbobrick240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: maine
Default

Those wear numbers look fairly decent, but I wouldn't be happy with that viscosity loss. No way would I want to take what is now effectively a 20 weight oil out to 15k miles. I wonder if you're getting a strong biodiesel blend- that could explain the sodium and viscosity loss through fuel dilution.
turbobrick240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5th, 2019, 09:19   #3527
Mrrogers1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Omaha NEEEBRASKA
Fuel Economy: Never high enough but always trying for more.... (See signature)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
Those wear numbers look fairly decent, but I wouldn't be happy with that viscosity loss. No way would I want to take what is now effectively a 20 weight oil out to 15k miles. I wonder if you're getting a strong biodiesel blend- that could explain the sodium and viscosity loss through fuel dilution.
I'm not purposely getting higher bio-blend but it could be. I only fill up at 2 different BP stations here in Nebraska for the most part. I also do use Schaeffer's winter and summer fuel additives (switched from Howes) which also could be it, I'll have to look into that.

I hear ya on the dilution side (I kind of wonder how big of a deal just 1pt under recommended is), this next run will be the end of my experiments to find the sweet spot. If nothing else and I keep with 13k and be done with it. This was an over the winter run and I did more in town driving so less efficient and more regen cycles. With summer arriving and vacations, I think I'll pile on more miles, faster and more efficiently so it should be interesting to see what the dilution affect ends up doing on this next longer run.

At the end of the day, it's definitely better than the Castrol (that is what was in for the first UOA on the report after 20k of being broken in) and once I know what 15k looks like, I'll stop testing for a 30k miles and just drive, change and enjoy the ride. I absolutely love my MY15 GSW and plan to drive for a very very long time. Kind of what to buy another.
__________________

Last edited by Mrrogers1; May 5th, 2019 at 09:38.
Mrrogers1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8th, 2019, 06:53   #3528
James & Son
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI(s): 2006 Jetta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrrogers1 View Post
I'm not purposely getting higher bio-blend but it could be. I only fill up at 2 different BP stations here in Nebraska for the most part. I also do use Schaeffer's winter and summer fuel additives (switched from Howes) which also could be it, I'll have to look into that.

I hear ya on the dilution side (I kind of wonder how big of a deal just 1pt under recommended is), this next run will be the end of my experiments to find the sweet spot. If nothing else and I keep with 13k and be done with it. This was an over the winter run and I did more in town driving so less efficient and more regen cycles. With summer arriving and vacations, I think I'll pile on more miles, faster and more efficiently so it should be interesting to see what the dilution affect ends up doing on this next longer run.

At the end of the day, it's definitely better than the Castrol (that is what was in for the first UOA on the report after 20k of being broken in) and once I know what 15k looks like, I'll stop testing for a 30k miles and just drive, change and enjoy the ride. I absolutely love my MY15 GSW and plan to drive for a very very long time. Kind of what to buy another.
I am glad to see you have 3 test reports with this oil. Note that your last report was better than this report on a wear per mile bases. I know you said it was winter and city driving and probably you are right. I would not go beyond 13000 under those conditions. As far as break in, Oil Hammer claims final iron and bearing break in at 60,000 miles. I would want to see all wear improve again before testing beyond.

As the moly disulfide( MO2) is used up it turns to MO3 which is abrasive from the scientific papers I have read. Just keep that in mind as you go forward.
James & Son is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2019, 07:41   #3529
James & Son
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI(s): 2006 Jetta
Default Regarding Scheaffer 8008

First of all it is a Mid saps oil. This is not 507 complient ash wise. I should have known this when I saw the amount of Modtc in the oil.

If you read the last paragraph of Go Faster's sticky

If you use an oil that doesn't meet VW 507.00 in a common-rail engine, there is a risk that the additive package in the oil will be incompatible with the (very expensive) emission control system - and it's not only the emission control system at risk. These engines deliberately squirt an extra shot of fuel into the cylinder on the exhaust stroke to heat up the catalytic converter in order to "regenerate". A portion of this fuel will end up on the cylinder walls, be scraped up by the piston rings, and end up in the crankcase, where it will dilute the engine oil. The engine oil must be designed to tolerate a certain amount of fuel dilution on these engines.

I think this answers why your viscosity is dropping and also why Scheaffer is saying, only meets these standards if used at manufactures recommended oil change intervals.

I have always questioned any benefit of using modtc in a diesel engine if any form of catalytic convertor is used as it is high temperature resistant and may end up coating the surface over time.
James & Son is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12th, 2019, 07:58   #3530
asgoodasdead
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: NJ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdiman View Post
Interesting read I Found this on the TDI board somewhere

The ORIGINAL factory APPROVED oil change interval is 30,000 miles! YES 30,000 MILES!!

Did you comprehend that?

THE ORGINAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL APPROVAL IS 30,000 MILES!!!

Now that I have that off my chest,

VW reduced the interval from 30,000 miles to 10,000 miles in the US market...any guesses why?

Because people like you either:
1) Can't read the owners manual
2) Don't trust the car makers
3) Can't follow directions
4) Fail to adhere to the service indicator in the car

VW does NOT want oil change intervals of less than 10,000 miles due to how the oils function in the engine, shorter intervals INCREASE WEAR, Don't argue with me about it, if you take the time to track wear rates during an oil change at 250 mile intervals you can plot the reduction and stabilization of the wear rates out beyond 25,000 miles!

Think of oil as having 2 types of wear reducing additives, the first provides protection by/thru detergancy (cleansing of internal surfaces), dispersing soot, neutralizing acids (not an issue now with ULSD), and several other types as well. These additives are generally very specific to diesel engines and must pass specific tests in VW Diesel engines.

The next type of additive is a wear additive. These protect the engine where the thickness of oil may be too thin to prevent metal to metal contact. Other additves in this type range also provide protection to the cam and lifters, engine bearings, piston wrist pins etc.

Now pay attention, the 2nd group of additives account for less than 3% of the total volume of the oil. These additives also account for 90% of the engines oil protection! These additives require heat and pressure to bond with the critical wear surfaces, but due to the low percentage of additive in the oil they require time to fully place on those surfaces by the pressures of the component they are protecting. Example, an engine at operating temperature at the point where the cam presses on the lifter generates in excess of 90,000 psi, that pressure and the heat of the engine causes the 3% portion of the 1 micron thick oil film to form a crust or sacrifical layer at the point of contact. Since only 3% of the oil contains the wear additives, it requires hundreds of thousands of passes to generate a sufficient film to stop the wear at this specific point in the engine.

Everybody is quick to make the arguement that the old oil had these additives so they are already in place, right? not quite!

Remember the first type of additive? In that 1st group you had "detergents" that cleanse the inside of the motor. These cleansers are used up very rapidly after an oil change since they attack the remaining oil that was left after the oil change. These cleansers if you will also reduce the effectiveness of the high pressure wear additives...See where this is going?

Before explaining further, after that initial period the dispersants in the oil work to prevent the adhering of the particles in the oil to any of the internal surfaces. These additives are often unique to diesel engines are also the reason why the oil looks so black so quickly, they are doing their job by preventing the soot from building up in any one place instead they are dispersed in the oil evenly throughout the oil sump which prevents sludging and other contamination related issues.

Back to the detergents and the high pressure additives, the layers of high pressure additives leftover are not being replenished after the oil change due to the cleaning process that is going on with the new oil to neutralize the remaining acids, and other contaminants in the engine. As the cleaners in the oil are used up in the first 500-1000 miles, the wear additives are able to re-generate a protective layer in the engine that stops the wear at that location.

You break down the oils life cycle like this:

Phase 1: Detergants attack the internals removing accumlated contaminants, neutralize acids and force those into suspenstion in the oil. This period of time lasts between 500-1000 miles

Phase 2: During the first 1000 miles the oils viscosity provides the majority of the wear protection by virtue of the film it creates on the surfaces. This phase generates relatively high wear rates but due to the short duration this is accepted due to the removal of contaminants that could result in long term damage to the motor. Wear rates in the period of time are generally speaking 5-10ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 3: Detergents are now used up and the oil additives are forming their protective layers in the "extreme pressure" regions of the motor. Now the oil additives are working in conjunction with the oil film and the wear rates drop from 10ppm per 1000 miles to around 1-2ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 4: Longterm peace! The oil is operating in a period of equilibrium, the wear additives are placed, Oil viscosity is in perfect range for the engine, Dispersants are continually working to prevent soot and other contaminants from accumulating on the surfaces and wear rates remain between 1-3ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 5: Oil run out, the oil during this phase begins to increase in viscosity (or thin in some cases), Extreme pressure additives begin to lose effectiveness due to increased concentrations of wear particles (VW tests out to 8%, most oil changes never see in excess of 2% after 30,000 miles). This is when you begin to see a rise in the wear metal formation in the engine. Often wear metals during this phase rise to the 3-8ppm per 1000 mile range. Notice that the wear metals being generated are still LOWER than they were in the first 1000 miles?

--------------------------------------------------------------

When somebody says they are going to change the oil every 5000 miles or twice as often they are DOUBLING the number of detergent cycles and DOUBLING the number of cycles where the engine is running at it's highest wear rates!

PPM/Fe (generation of Fe in 1000 mile increments)
Short drain intervals
1K oil change
10ppm = 10ppm in 1000 miles = 10ppm/1000 miles

3K oil change
10+2+2 = 14ppm in 3000 miles = 4.6ppm/1000 miles

5K oil change
10+2+2+2+2: Change oil = 18ppm in 5000 miles = 3.6ppm/1000 miles

Long drain intervals
10K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3 = 29 ppm in 10,000 miles = 2.9ppm/1000 miles

15K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 44ppm in 15,000 miles = 2.9 ppm/1000 miles

20K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+4+4 = 61ppm in 20,000 miles = 3.3ppm/1000 miles

When ppm of Fe per 1000 miles reaches 5-7ppm per 1000 miles you can consider the oil ready for a change...

The above is based on real world TDI oil samples.

I have personally used up to 25,000 mile oil drain intervals on my TDI and still never reached the 5-7ppm range! I changed it at that time due to soot and TBN depletion (high sulfur fuel at the time).

Anybody that tells you that short oil drain intervals are good for your motor don't know what they are talking about!

DB
__________________
DBW LLC
Specializing in Injectors for CRI, CR, PD, VE, IDI VW, Audi, MB, SEAT and Skoda Diesel engines.
Offical Importer, Distributor and Installer for Fratelli Bosio, S.R.L. North America
Quotes and Pricing for TDI Injectors

Last edited by Drivbiwire; 11-10-08 at 06:54 PM.
*



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
do you think the 30k international vs 10k US interval has to do with the EGR valve?

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk
asgoodasdead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12th, 2019, 13:39   #3531
TornadoRed
Veteran Member
 
TornadoRed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Saint Paul (ex-San Diego)
Default

I think VE and PD engines everywhere had EGR valves.
__________________
'03 Golf with 764k miles: Bosio DLC 764, GT1749VB, PP 2.5" downpipe, Malone tuning, VR6/G60 clutch/flywheel, Bilstein HDs, Recaros, Akebono pads/Brembo rotors, Cat fuel filter with Nicktane head, DG Panzer w/FMJ, Pirelli Cinturatos, TDT or Delvac1
Like TDI Club? Got PayPal? Got $1 or $5 or $10? Contribution link on the main page.
TornadoRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2019, 04:47   #3532
Mrrogers1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Omaha NEEEBRASKA
Fuel Economy: Never high enough but always trying for more.... (See signature)
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by James & Son View Post
I am glad to see you have 3 test reports with this oil. Note that your last report was better than this report on a wear per mile bases. I know you said it was winter and city driving and probably you are right. I would not go beyond 13000 under those conditions. As far as break in, Oil Hammer claims final iron and bearing break in at 60,000 miles. I would want to see all wear improve again before testing beyond.

As the moly disulfide( MO2) is used up it turns to MO3 which is abrasive from the scientific papers I have read. Just keep that in mind as you go forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by James & Son View Post
First of all it is a Mid saps oil. This is not 507 complient ash wise. I should have known this when I saw the amount of Modtc in the oil.
If you read the last paragraph of Go Faster's sticky
If you use an oil that doesn't meet VW 507.00 in a common-rail engine, there is a risk that the additive package in the oil will be incompatible with the (very expensive) emission control system - and it's not only the emission control system at risk. These engines deliberately squirt an extra shot of fuel into the cylinder on the exhaust stroke to heat up the catalytic converter in order to "regenerate". A portion of this fuel will end up on the cylinder walls, be scraped up by the piston rings, and end up in the crankcase, where it will dilute the engine oil. The engine oil must be designed to tolerate a certain amount of fuel dilution on these engines.
I think this answers why your viscosity is dropping and also why Scheaffer is saying, only meets these standards if used at manufactures recommended oil change intervals.
I have always questioned any benefit of using modtc in a diesel engine if any form of catalytic convertor is used as it is high temperature resistant and may end up coating the surface over time.
Thanks for BOTH posts on this. I will test at 13k again but based on summer driving with more long distance driving and see how it looks. 13k may just be the wall and I'll roll over that magical 60k number during this next OCI as well. I may end up just sticking to the 10k OCI but I don't mind and like to be able to look at how the numbers shake out.
__________________
Mrrogers1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2019, 09:01   #3533
Fixmy59bug
Veteran Member
 
Fixmy59bug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Henderson, NV
Fuel Economy: Check my Fuelly Tag for most up-to-date numbers
Default

About a month ago I had my oil changed, but I forgot to send in the oil sample. It has been sitting in my garage for the last month.

Is it still a good sample to have tested or should I just recycle it and wait for the next?
__________________
Fixmy59bug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2019, 11:19   #3534
Mrrogers1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Omaha NEEEBRASKA
Fuel Economy: Never high enough but always trying for more.... (See signature)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixmy59bug View Post
About a month ago I had my oil changed, but I forgot to send in the oil sample. It has been sitting in my garage for the last month.

Is it still a good sample to have tested or should I just recycle it and wait for the next?
I'd call the lab and ask. I can't see how the moving around of the contents, basically shaking up, wouldn't make it ready to test but the lab would know best.

Let us know what they say!
__________________
Mrrogers1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2019, 16:35   #3535
tdiman
Veteran Member
 
tdiman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: bridgeport wv
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by James & Son View Post
TDIman,

If you analyse your theory, it has a lot of holes in it. The following makes a lot more sense.

HTHS(high temp/high shear)synthetic oil and a proper TBN for the service conditions and interval and dynamic viscosity starting with recommendations by the manufacture.

Hear is how VW explains it. Most people will find the last page hasn't changed the thinking much when it comes to service conditions but synthetic oil has allowed increased service intervals for most light duty vehicle applications.

I am not sure which service regime is best for me.
The choice or regime can be dependent on how the car is driven and the conditions of
use, It is impossible to state any hard and fast rules. However, if you are not sure,
Volkswagen recommends that your car be set to the factories default of the LongLife
regime. The service indicator will tell you when the first service is due. Your
Volkswagen Retailer or repairer will then discuss the best regime suitable for you to
adopt. To help you identify which regime may be best for you, please refer to the
following guidance.
LongLife Regime.
To obtain the most benefit from the LongLife service regime, the car should to be
generally driven in a style/condition of use listed below:
• Mainly longer distance journeys
• Limited number of cold starts, engine is kept at operating temperature over a
longer period of time.
• Daily mileage above approx. 25 miles.
• Constant speed.
• Vehicle used regularly.
Time/Distance Regime.
It your car is driven in a style if listed below, it may be more appropriate to opt for the
Time and Distance regime
• Extremely uneconomical driving style ie continual maximum acceleration ie. ‘foot to
floor’.
• Vehicle fully loaded.
• Mainly short journeys.
• Frequent cold starts.
• Frequent hill climbs.
• Frequent towing.
• City centre driving.
For further information concerning the servicing regimes, please consult your
Volkswagen Retailer or repairer for full details.
Please note
All mileage stated is an approximate guide as the service indicator system uses
kilometres as the distance measurement.
Last updated September 2007.


I average 2,000 a month high way driving sometimes a bit more and I have some town driving also and I always Idol 10 min before I leave I like my car to be at temp before I drive just me And after a 100 miles trip I will idol some before I turn off car my feelings before I started doing oil Analysis was I bet this oil can go double the mileage the dealer says 20,000 miles so from now on I will test at 20,000 to c what report says and decide at that point whether to run it at 30,000 or make my Standard oil change at 20,000


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
tdiman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 22nd, 2019, 14:13   #3536
Fixmy59bug
Veteran Member
 
Fixmy59bug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Henderson, NV
Fuel Economy: Check my Fuelly Tag for most up-to-date numbers
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrrogers1 View Post
I'd call the lab and ask. I can't see how the moving around of the contents, basically shaking up, wouldn't make it ready to test but the lab would know best.
Let us know what they say!
I suppose I really should have checked their website first. LOL.

In the FAQ There is a question that asks if an oil sample that has been sitting in the garage for 3 months would be OK. And they say it should be fine.

One very important lesson learned though....

Their website is www.blackstone-labs.com

NOT www.blackstonelabs.com
__________________
Fixmy59bug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22nd, 2019, 14:40   #3537
turbobrick240
Veteran Member
 
turbobrick240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: maine
Default

Lol. Says a lot about that demographic. Gotta get some Arson. Must have edged out Arsenic when they were brainstorming product names.
turbobrick240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:16.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
© 1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.27467 seconds with 12 queries
[Output: 127.26 Kb. compressed to 109.83 Kb. by saving 17.42 Kb. (13.69%)]