DSG torque limitation

Is torque some how limited in the first three gears on the DSG cars? I drove both MT and DSG cars and the DSG feels lot sluggish in the first 3 gears when you press the throttle abruptly.

Stock dsg does have a torque limit. Malone/everybody changes that in any of their tunes. Surely someone can chime in on what the number is specifically.

Check out this link: It depends on which gearbox you have: It looks like the DSG can handle a lot of torque.

http://www.hpamotorsports.com/dsgtuning.html

And this one:

https://malonetuning.com/ecu-tuning/dsg

PB_NB said:

Check out this link: It depends on which gearbox you have: It looks like the DSG can handle a lot of torque.

http://www.hpamotorsports.com/dsgtuning.html

And this one:

https://malonetuning.com/ecu-tuning/dsg

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it probably can, no doubt, I was just wondering if there is some kind of a software limiter, because it feels like it has less torque compared to manual, in the first 3 gears at least

bmwM5power said:

it probably can, no doubt, I was just wondering if there is some kind of a software limiter, because it feels like it has less torque compared to manual, in the first 3 gears at least

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The DSG controller does have the ability to limit engine torque during shifts. IIRC, the stock torque limit is 350nM (which is about 260 ft-lbs). This limit can be changed with a DSG tune. Almost any CR TDI tune will put out over 350nM of torque, so this can definitely be felt as the engine cuts back a bit for every shift. Most good DSG tunes will change the clutch engagement parameters and the torque limits.

Have Fun!

Don

What you are experiencing is not directly caused by the transmission. An ECU tune will take care of it if your tuner knows what they are doing.

You can see this manifest in dyno charts as a quick spike on tip-in followed by a pullback. In driving this feels like the car "wants" to take off for a half second or so, but "something" reins it in. A good tune won't have that, but most tunes will.

FWIW the MK7 do not have the same kind of active external torque intervention between the transmission and ECU that exists in the MK6/5 cars. So the need for a DSG tune is not as important. However, even in those it can be adjusted with the correct series of single bit settings and bitmasks, all in the ECU with no "mandatory" DSG tune required. It's pretty arcane stuff that is outside the normal "map salad" so of course it fits the business plan for most tuners to insist on a "mandatory" DSG tune rather than try and figure it out.

I accidentally pulled out infront of a car yesterday. I tried to roll into the throttle smooth but quickly and the response wasnt fast enough so i pinned the throttle and the delay was unbelievable. It spit and sputtered with like a 2 second delay fell on its face then finally down shifted and took off. Is this what your talking about here?

GreenLantern_TDI said:

I accidentally pulled out infront of a car yesterday. I tried to roll into the throttle smooth but quickly and the response wasnt fast enough so i pinned the throttle and the delay was unbelievable. It spit and sputtered with like a 2 second delay fell on its face then finally down shifted and took off. Is this what your talking about here?

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Not exactly but what you are talking about is mitigated by a good ecu tune. I won't discuss the exact mechanism due to competitive concerns. I will concede that a dsg tune is one possible way to avoid the bogging at low rpm in high gear, though you may be surprised to learn that many of the most commonly cited dsg tunes would *not* help in this situation. Our DSG tunes would never allow the engine to drop to the "bog range" in the first place. However, this bogging behavior is greatly mitigated by a good ecu tune. to the point where we've had some guys say they are experiencing some of the advertised benefits of a "dsg tune" simply by flashing the ecu tune to their 2015 car.

GreenLantern_TDI said:

I accidentally pulled out infront of a car yesterday. I tried to roll into the throttle smooth but quickly and the response wasnt fast enough so i pinned the throttle and the delay was unbelievable. It spit and sputtered with like a 2 second delay fell on its face then finally down shifted and took off. Is this what your talking about here?

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You were probably in D mode where the rpms are under 2k and the turbo is not fully spooled and ready as evidenced by the need for your car to downshift to get rpms higher. D mode is great for fuel economy but bad for quick response.

When doing lane changes or accelerating, I keep it in S mode. The rpms are higher and it is ready for me to floor it with minimal lag.

I'm guessing you were lugging the engine and that is why it sputtered and was slow to go. I put it in S as I come to a stop and then back into D when I am ready to cruise after accelerating (like when I reach 25 in the city or 40 on an empty road).

Driving like that doesn't give me lag or issues. I have the kerma tune and it is great. I fully recommend it to anyone as you can read my older posts. While the ecu kerma tune will help, the engine was never meant to go full throttle when the rpms are low. If you keep your engine in a good rev range and you floor it with a kerma tune, it will definitely go (I chirp my tires when I do this)

That being said, the kerma tune does significantly increase low end torque below 2k. That is especially noticeable after flashing it. It has more power but is not the full power of the engine, to the levels you want to get away from the car behind you. For that you are looking for peak torque which happens over 2k rpms, which S mode will help you maintain. Drive around in S mode for a few days and see how it helps with rpms

It is likely something is out of spec on the DSG car or worn/sticking. I experienced the opposite-the DSG cars we own feel faster then the manuals (2 dsg 1 man now all 2015, used to be 1 dsg 2 man 2014s). The manual when it was sluggished turned out to be an faulty exhaust flap valve. Our DSG cars pull with massive authority off the line tons of wheel spin and unnecessary drama almost a hair trigger throttle (much more power then wanted or needed). We never drive em hard so when you a bit further then normal it really reacts. The manuals always seemed to lack torque off the line and would stall if left in second and at idle, just did not have the driveability the dsg cars have.

clacker said:

It is likely something is out of spec on the DSG car or worn/sticking. I experienced the opposite-the DSG cars we own feel faster then the manuals (2 dsg 1 man now all 2015, used to be 1 dsg 2 man 2014s). The manual when it was sluggished turned out to be an faulty exhaust flap valve. Our DSG cars pull with massive authority off the line tons of wheel spin and unnecessary drama almost a hair trigger throttle (much more power then wanted or needed). We never drive em hard so when you a bit further then normal it really reacts. The manuals always seemed to lack torque off the line and would stall if left in second and at idle, just did not have the driveability the dsg cars have.

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this does not match my DSG experience at all. our 15 GSW feels neutered in a big way, lugging at low speeds constantly to the degree that the low frequency noise is pretty annoying. i intended on waiting for the phase 2 fix before getting a tune, but i don't think i can hold out any longer. Kerma or Malone treatment is imminent

bmwM5power said:

Is torque some how limited in the first three gears on the DSG cars? I drove both MT and DSG cars and the DSG feels lot sluggish in the first 3 gears when you press the throttle abruptly.

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There is alot going on in both of these EA288 CRUA configurations (auto-dsgs/manuals). Each gear has its own drivers request map that governs the fueling/load request wrt rpm and fueling, temp, etc. If you have a cold engine, there is alot more throttle attenuation/correction preventing full power. It's all about emissions too, so don't think the engineers would allow a full throttle fuel dump from stop.

There are some other maps as well including torque and injector pulse that are maf dependant as well. So when the egr is cycling/open during tip-in, you'll have more lag than if its off. The only limiters for the trans are max wot torque at max request not ramping. DSG gears 5 and 6 actually have less request % that earlier gears. I have found other mapping 2D non-linearities that no other tuners touch or know about. Actually popular mapping sw most tuners use, doesn't even allow you to edit this data area.

Not limited to vw's, but BMW's MB's, Ecodiesels, etc. are all Bosch controlled, including limiters for EGT, cylinder pressures, and MAF, and lambda tables.

I have exhausted R&D efforts on DSG's for many years since I enjoy driving a properly programmed TDI/DSG over a manual. The ecodiesel 8spd is most impressive / awesome prime mover next to the MB 7spds, and BMW d's.

I've discussed this subject many times, here is a a link.
Jeff ;-))

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5330388&postcount=11

Our DSG do lug along once moving, but if you tip in the throttle from a dead stop it MOVES. I find the throttle to be very responsive compared to other diesels, I don't drive gas...much more responsive then my Cummins Ram (05 2500, auto 2wd) that has lag big time unless you really dig for fuel and then lots of smoke too. The R320 is also really unresponsive in comparison. Both of course weight much more.
I am never impressed with the manual in the last couple generations of the tdi vs the DSG, just not the same driving experience. I am sure on paper the manual maybe faster, but in real life situations I prefer the DSG with these motors. We have both in the family and each time I get to drive my brother's or mother's when she had one it was disappointing (compared with other manuals or vehicles I wish were manual like my truck). I did not find them faster and much harder to drive smoothly-they lack fueling at idle...

One thing I enjoyed about the manual TDI that I had was that I could roll into the power from 16-2000 RPMs up to 3,500. On the DSG if I roll into it with any sort of authority it grabs a gear lower for a few seconds until it runs out of room and then shifts back to the gear i was originally in, that is unless I hold it in gear by slapping it into manual mode before rolling into it.