Why diesel over petrol?

Golf 1 fan

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Just curious as to why you guys are all devoted to diesel over petrol? I understand its alot more economical but performance wise diesels are still behind. If you had to compare a 1.9 TDI to a 1.9i turbo there wont be much of a coparison. Do you guys feel that diesel is better in terms of performance? And service costs are more, having to service you vehicle more often then a petrol engine. And for me personally I enjoy reving a car but with diesel you cant rev past like 4500 or 5000rpm. Not sure about where you guys stay but compared to a Honda Civic Vtec ( The 1.6i VVT) which for a 1600 had incredible power figures of about 150 hp and a 0-100 time in line with most 2.0L and where the red line was at about 8200rpm. Help me see the light!
 

GaGolfSup

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Sep 21, 2005
Location
Dallas, GA
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2011 Jetta TDI
Economy is obviously first and foremost. Performance is also there. Diesel may not stack up in numbers such as horsepower and 0-60 times, but because of the torque diesels produce, real world practical performance is there. I'd much rather merge into traffic in my diesel than most gassers I've driven. The power is predictable and immediately available.
 
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mavapa

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Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Location
rome, ga
TDI
2001 golf
The only reason to drive a diesel-powered car is fuel economy. Previous versions of the tdi get an honest 48+ mpg on the highway. Current models get less, even as low as mid-30s, mostly because of increased power, as I understand it. I used to get about 50 mpg, and some claim even more. There are very few gasoline-powered cars, including hybrids, that can match that. Even most smaller cars in the US get only in the 20s range for mpg (that's in US gallons).
 

Jump62

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Nov 11, 2002
Location
Crofton, Maryland
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2003 Jetta GlS,2006 NB (Crew Chief),2009 JSW
Can we help you see the light? Maybe but idea is to use the power and tourque the engine makes in the most effective way. Lets flip it around what if I drove a 1.8T like a 1.9 TDI and changed gears at 2500 rpm for power. I wouldn't go very fast or get up to speed anytime soon. Remember the timing for the power stroke of the engine cycle is dependant on hot fuel and piston hittting it just right. Making a diesel do higher rpm isn't going to cause more power and effects the power stroke.
Performance is relative, I was heading to a store using back roads and came on a Audi A-6 with a vr6 badge on it. We zoomed around this curvy road and we both went to the same store, he asked if I had a 1.8T or vr6 in it. The look on his face when I said it was a diesel was priceless. As far as stright line speed a GTI wanted to go zooom-zoom from a stop light. The first 4 gears I had him by a car length but when he got into his 5 and 6th gears he had me. Not bad for 90 Hp.
Please let us know what you mean by service costs are more, Lets see oil change at 10K cost$30, 20K service $92, 40K service about $100 with me being able to do all the needed services execpt timing belt which is done at 100K.
What is the 0-700 mile time on one tank of fuel for your high reving wounders? Do you have to stop to refuel? At 82 mph ( set via gps ) for 4 hours travel and refueled I got 44 MPG. Fuel costs are going up and you are stuck with fuel made from oil and maybe some corn derived additions. We are able right now to burn Bio-diesel made from soybeans. The USA grows lots of Soy.
OK to sum it up, like high rpm, 0-60 is important....get a gasser. Want someting that can go fast and far....get a diesel. Watch for the Audi TDI racer, v-12, killer tourqe, and mileage all rapped up in an F-1 car.
Hoped this helped.
Paul
aka Jump62
 

jrock

Veteran Member
Joined
May 3, 2004
Location
Dallas, TX
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Jetta, 2001, Blue, Passat, 2012 Silver
Golf 1 fan,

A good example of comparable diesel performance is the Jeep Liberty CRD. The CRD compared to the 3.7 V6 has LESS HP; it is however quicker in a quarter mile run. The same is true for the E320 CDI. There is a old saying that goes something like this, HP sells cars but torque wins at the track.

Jesse
 
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bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
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None
First things first, the "servicing more than a gasser" thing is false. Unless you count timing belts, which you have to do on gassers too, it's just people neglect those more often.

However, the services costing more than a gasser service CAN be true. If you can't find a diesel mechanic that won't rip you off, that is.

If I didn't discover the VW diesels, I would be taking a cheap Toyota Tercel or Honda CRX to a gasser mechanic, and getting reamed (well, OK, not compared to a dealership...) But, with my Jetta, I'm doing a lot of my own maintenance, and personally know mechanics that are VERY fair to me. It comes out to be *MUCH* cheaper that way.

Oh, and jrock, the saying is: "you buy horsepower, you drive torque". ;)
 

Golf 1 fan

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
With regards to serving I assumed you took it to a VW dealership, and if those prices you said are from a VW dealership then im getting ripped. Jump62, you dont say what diesel you have or which GTI you raced for me to understand 100%. Yea,you right,a Civic wont get anywhere near that kind of consumption...ever!
 

mavapa

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
rome, ga
TDI
2001 golf
Diesels as such do not necessarily require more maintenance than an equivalent gasoline-powered car, especially if you look at maintenance over very long times (as few do). But if you are talking about VW in particular, the VW tdi does require more maintenance than an equivalent gasoline car, mainly because of the screwed-up job VW did engineering the car. I am talking about reliability and non-scheduled maintenance, like cleaning clogged intake manifolds. This is a current VW problem, not a diesel problem. The slow power degradation of the current VW diesel makes all claims of diesel performance advantages purely academic.
 

SR7D1

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Cleveland, OH
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
Golf 1 fan said:
Just curious as to why you guys are all devoted to diesel over petrol? I understand its alot more economical but performance wise diesels are still behind. If you had to compare a 1.9 TDI to a 1.9i turbo there wont be much of a coparison. Do you guys feel that diesel is better in terms of performance? And service costs are more, having to service you vehicle more often then a petrol engine. And for me personally I enjoy reving a car but with diesel you cant rev past like 4500 or 5000rpm. Not sure about where you guys stay but compared to a Honda Civic Vtec ( The 1.6i VVT) which for a 1600 had incredible power figures of about 150 hp and a 0-100 time in line with most 2.0L and where the red line was at about 8200rpm. Help me see the light!
Where is the troll Icon when you need it? :rolleyes:
 

wxman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1999
Location
East TN, USA
TDI
Other Diesel
Actually, there's no fundamental reason why a diesel can't produce as much horsepower - never mind torque - as an equivalent gasoline engine. Diesels typically cannot rev as high, but they're essentially unlimited in boost pressure - something that can't be said of a gasser.

For example, Scheid has modified a 5.9 liter Cummins (as used in a Dodge pickup truck) for use in their pulling truck. It is rumored to have ~1500 hp on straight diesel, and if you saw it run, you'd believe it!

There are diesel pulling tractors that are approaching 3000 hp from a 466 cubic inch engine (modified International DT466 engine). They have boost pressure of up to 250 psi. That's what, over 15 atmospheres? :eek:
 

Jump62

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Joined
Nov 11, 2002
Location
Crofton, Maryland
TDI
2003 Jetta GlS,2006 NB (Crew Chief),2009 JSW
Golf 1 fan said:
With regards to serving I assumed you took it to a VW dealership, and if those prices you said are from a VW dealership then im getting ripped. Jump62, you dont say what diesel you have or which GTI you raced for me to understand 100%. Yea,you right,a Civic wont get anywhere near that kind of consumption...ever!
I have a 2003 Jetta with a 1.9 engine with 90 Hp. The GTI was a 1.8T and a 2004 and we were not racing just doing an Italian tune-up. Think he did not respect a diesel or understand our power comes at low rpm and early on. Here at Tdiclub most of us do our own service to save money sure but more to keep the VW monkeys from overfilling fluid, over torque or no torque wrench used. Wait till VW cuts loose with the tdi engines that europe gets, I want a V-6 tdi Passant with 4motion and look for Mustangs to bugger.
Paul
aka Jump62
 

Leedogg

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Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Location
Brewton, AL
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Present: 05 Passat TDI Past: 06 Jetta TDI
I bought mine purely for the economy. but since owning it for a lil over a month- I love the car. Though it is true that I haven't had any service done yet- but I hear of 90 dollar oil changes(which usually include an inspection) every 10,000 miles......but, that is still better than the 52 dollars every 3K miles with my Superduty I traded- and comparable to 3(9000 miles- 28 bucks each) oil changes in my Trans Am at the speedy lube. Figure in going from a 17 mpg truck to a 43 mpg Jetta- I think it is worth it!

I have a 450hp TA, so I don't consider these cars by ANY measure as fast- but I have yet to really need more power- it'll cruise 90 like it is cool, and the torque gives sufficient passing power without needing to downshift 2 gears to do it. For my driving(80% freeway cruising) this car is almost perfect! I would rather a better 6th(DSG) to get the rpms down to about 21-2200 at 80.;) I think that'd help the mileage a bit too.
 

Bob_Fout

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Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
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2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Jump62 said:
I have a 2003 Jetta with a 1.9 engine with 90 Hp. The GTI was a 1.8T and a 2004 and we were not racing just doing an Italian tune-up. Think he did not respect a diesel or understand our power comes at low rpm and early on. Here at Tdiclub most of us do our own service to save money sure but more to keep the VW monkeys from overfilling fluid, over torque or no torque wrench used. Wait till VW cuts loose with the tdi engines that europe gets, I want a V-6 tdi Passant with 4motion and look for Mustangs to bugger.
Paul
aka Jump62
Heck, RC3 + injectors (maybe FMIC too) with your ALH will allow you to do the same thing.
 

Leedogg

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Location
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TDI
Present: 05 Passat TDI Past: 06 Jetta TDI
BTW -- how would a chipped TDI with say 125 fwhp and 250+ fwtq hold up to a 150 hp Civic?:D

EDIT- Bob beat me to it.LOL
 

Smokerr

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Location
Alaska
TDI
Passat Wagon GL,2005,Silver
We bought a 2005 Passat TDI Wagon.

Our primary goal was the fuel economy, but we also wanted a vehicle that performed well. The intent (if we liked it) was to replace a 94 Ford Bronco, which was set up very nicely with a sports package.
Getting into the car and driving it was instant comfort. All the immediate controls and setup were right where they should be, just slipped in and went (we did try a Jetta, but it was too small).
In town performance was very good, and I ran it up a particularly steep hill with a 90 degree corner leading into it, both took that with aplomb and spirited performance.
So, we like the Passat wagon we drove, and we decided on what we would be willing to pay, and I went and talked to them after I did my serious research (features, price, interest rates etc).
While they do not get many of them, they did have what we wanted (still in the shipping wrapper), that being the base entry model (GL), which came with both the automatic transmission (we had to have that for my wife) as well as the diesel engine standard. Even the GLS was not too badly priced.
The dealership let us drive it for half a day, and we took it all over town, in and out and up an icy hill, and it went well, my wife was comfortable in it (she is almost 6 foot, as well as not being able to drive a standard anymore).
When it was all said and done, we got the car at MSRP, and a very low interest rate.
I had researched all the road stuff, and its proven to be true. The 134hp rating is extremely misleading, as its followed by 247 lbs of torque starting at 1900. You have to get into bigger V6 to get that much torque. That toque curve is FLAT till 3500 (where it starts to fall off) You have a huge amount of twist to work with in that range. HP peaks at 4,000, so as its falling off the torque, the HP is kicking in.
You can run up any hill (twisty or not) with ease. Throw in twisters where other vehicles are struggling to find a gear that they can run it in, and it just zips right up.
Passing you may need to drop a gear to get the revs up a bit, but once you do, it just keeps accelerating, you can hit 90 without realizing it.
For us its been a huge fuel savings, as we went from vehicle that got 8 mpg in winter in town and at best 15mpg on the highway in summer, to the Passat which pretty well gets 30-32 mpg around town, and 40-42 out of town. 40 mpg loaded to the gills on a recent trip (winter fuel, winter tires and –8 deg F to start and 12 deg F at the end).
It does have that intake manifold issue, but I will deal with that, though that is truly a sorry state of affairs for VW, and I suspect its going to haunt them (I intend to do so and I did not learn about that until after we bought it) Maintenance is no worse than any gas vehicle (other than maybe the fuel filter being more critical). Oil changes are once every 10k, and the timing belt at 100k (what gas car does not have that?). I cannot say for sure about reliability, but Consumers Reports did have it on their recommended list, and the Passat had been built for a long time, so the idea was to get a long established vehicle that would have the issues worked out.
Its not quite a sports wagon, but its close, it handles and drives very nicely, with great get up and go, zip where you need it, in a package that’s gives great economy. And we can afford to just go for a drive once in a while, or lunch out of town, and not have an enormous fuel bill for it.
There is simply not a gasser that offered all of that.
 

Jump62

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Location
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2003 Jetta GlS,2006 NB (Crew Chief),2009 JSW
Bob_Fout said:
Heck, RC3 + injectors (maybe FMIC too) with your ALH will allow you to do the same thing.
Sure Bob but I want a V6.....you want what you can not have and I want a bigger platform as well.
Paul
aka Jump62
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Quarter-mile times and zero to 60 runs are something that my daily-driver car sees ... never.

Punching it at 2000 rpm in third gear to get around a slowpoke is something that happens ... frequently.

Cruising at 120 km/h and 2200 rpm (or 160 km/h and 3000 rpm) happens with a relaxed manner that no small 4-banger gasoline engine can touch.
 

dzlchef

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Location
Redondo Beach, CA
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Previously 02 Jetta TDI
GoFaster said:
Quarter-mile times and zero to 60 runs are something that my daily-driver car sees ... never.

Punching it at 2000 rpm in third gear to get around a slowpoke is something that happens ... frequently.

Cruising at 120 km/h and 2200 rpm (or 160 km/h and 3000 rpm) happens with a relaxed manner that no small 4-banger gasoline engine can touch.
Well, being a now former TDI owner, you can't say, "no small 4-banger gasoline engine can touch". I just bought an Audi A3, and its torque curve is at max from 1800-5000rpm as well, and with my car in 6th gear, I can cruise at 120 km/h and be just over 2200rpm and doing great, even more quietly than my TDI. The mileage isn't quite as good, but the fun factor is definitely there, and it's the only gas engine that totally feels like my diesel engine did. I'd be willing to trade it in for a new Audi TDI in several years, but it's my current love.
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
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Indiana
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2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
dzlchef said:
Well, being a now former TDI owner, you can't say, "no small 4-banger gasoline engine can touch". I just bought an Audi A3, and its torque curve is at max from 1800-5000rpm as well, and with my car in 6th gear, I can cruise at 120 km/h and be just over 2200rpm and doing great, even more quietly than my TDI. The mileage isn't quite as good, but the fun factor is definitely there, and it's the only gas engine that totally feels like my diesel engine did. I'd be willing to trade it in for a new Audi TDI in several years, but it's my current love.
Hmm...that's the same 2.0T that's in the new GTI :)
 

PlaneCrazy

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Province of Quebec, Canada
TDI
Gone...
Why diesel over gasser? I commute 1000+ km per week; my Passat gets 42 mpg highway, and my Jetta gets 50 mpg highway (50 and 60 imperial respectively).

Basically if you are looking at performance, gasser = quicker (if you look at things like 0-60), diesel = stronger. When you taste 247 lb-ft of torque at 1900-2500 rpm, you realize that stronger is very, very attractive, for going up hills, when you have a load to pull/carry, for relaxed (2000 rpm at 60 mph) cruising, or when you pull out to pass someone at 50 mph and the tach is sitting right on the torque peak.

Look at it in real world terms: so what if a gas Passat can go 0-60 in 7 instead of 10? It won't make me get home any sooner; it doesn't mean I'll cruise any faster. However, being able to go 700 miles on a single fill-up, instead of maybe 400, DOES get me home sooner because I can basically do all my weekly commuting on one tank of fuel instead of having to refuel twice.

So which car really is "faster" if by "fast" you mean average time over the road?

And yes, a diesel can be fun to drive.
 

Reflex130

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Jan 29, 2006
Location
UK
mavapa said:
the VW tdi does require more maintenance than an equivalent gasoline car, mainly because of the screwed-up job VW did engineering the car. I am talking about reliability and non-scheduled maintenance, like cleaning clogged intake manifolds. This is a current VW problem, not a diesel problem.
I know its all US info in here, but in the UK (and quite possibly the rest of europe), this isn't a problem at all.
Whats the reason for that?
Fuel quality?
Or maybe its down to the extra emissions parts you need to have fitted to run the TDi in the US?
I recently removed my intake and egr (133k miles) to check this, i discovered only a thin coating of solidified soot present, certainly not enough to create any real restrictions, this was backed up by a check on a second PD130 with 118k miles and a third with 145k, im sure none of them have ever been stripped and cleaned before.
Ive seen pics on here of badly clogged egr's and intakes after only 20-40k miles?
 

GoFaster

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Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
The PD's aren't nearly as bad for EGR clogging as the older cars, and this situation should get better still once we have ULSD everywhere. And it's quite possible that the Duro cars are mapped differently from the US cars.
 

Reflex130

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2006
Location
UK
I didnt know that about the PD's, why the big difference? The fuel pressure is a lot higher of course, but the boost/intake pressure is not such a great difference is it?, Isn't that what would effect intake/egr clogging the most?
On the other side....I previously had a 98 TDi 110 passat, and that was clogged pretty badly. It had earnt it tho, with 485k miles on the clock.
Why diesel over petrol?
Waiting for 3000+ rpm is just a waste of time, thats the single most important reason for me.
 

GoFaster

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Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
The PD's have higher injection pressure (better atomization = less soot), and the two-stage split injection setup is a lot more positive than it was with the old mechanical injectors (the first shot pre-heats the combustion chamber so the main shot of fuel burns better), and the combustion chamber is a flatter and wider shape (presumably this mixes the fuel and air better before the fuel jets hit the piston).
 

spelchek

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Sep 30, 2005
Location
QLD. Australia
TDI
A5 Golf 2.0l TDI
I too was sceptical about diesel engined passenger cars when my better half and I were shopping around to replace our Peugeot 206gti (due to the sudden upsizing of our passenger list by 1 .. the pug was a lovely car, but we could either take the baby in its capsuel OR its pram... not both .. :)).

We went to VW to test drive the new golf, and the salesman had to really talk me into driving the diesel (I really just wasnt interested when we went onto the showroom). The day before we had test driven the 307 Peugeot HDI (as well as the 'gasser' version) and I just wasnt impressed. However, after driving the A5 golf 2.0 FSI (petrol) which I really liked, the salesman talked me into driving the 2.0 TDI PD (140hp, 327nm torque) version.... I was sold within 100metres of leaving the showroom floor.

We signed that day! The difference in 'drivability' is just amazing.. I am now a true TDI convert.

Forget the facts and figures, the (misguided) tales of huge runing/service expenses and the old stigma of boring diesel engines... just take a TDI for a test drive.. you WILL be impressed, I guarantee it.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
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Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
Three fundamental reasons by I drive a TDI and won't own another gasser again if I can help it: Economy, longevity, and performance!
:cool:
 

MPGeez!

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Location
Hanover, Penna.
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06 Black TDI 5M PK2
PlaneCrazy said:
Look at it in real world terms: so what if a gas Passat can go 0-60 in 7 instead of 10? It won't make me get home any sooner; it doesn't mean I'll cruise any faster. However, being able to go 700 miles on a single fill-up, instead of maybe 400, DOES get me home sooner because I can basically do all my weekly commuting on one tank of fuel instead of having to refuel twice.
That's it in a nutshell.
 

Sig Dawg

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2006
Location
Weyburn, sask
TDI
05 Passat
Who ever says diesels can't make power hasn't done their research. I was watching trucks this weekend and they hopped up a 05 dodge ram 5.9L cummins straight six. (I know not a VW but keep reading). They were trying to get the highest hp with bolt ons. They installed an Edge power programmer, 4"exhaust, nitrous and propane, maybe an intake (can't remember). Without nitrous and propane it made 590 hp and 1150 lb/ft of torque, not bad, but with nitrous and propane it went to 880 hp and 1200 lb/ft. Pretty good for not having to touch the internals to beef them up. Lets see you do that with a 5.9 L gas engine produce that kind of power, get good mileage(keeping out of the fun pedal) and not have it blow up.
 
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