After 2 weeks w/ Front elevated for clutch Job Runs Badly- No Power

I had Both TDI's down recently and This one sat for about 2 weeks as i did a T-belt job on our other TDI due to someone not RTV sealing the water pump upon installation. It blew the o-ring... Anyway, it was awhile .before i could get to it to replace clutch on this one...



It was running great when clutch failed... I had the front elevated with just less than half a tank of fuel for about 2 weeks... Got the clutch in and upon test drive it is acting "as if" I had just replaced the fuel filter and diddnt completely get all the air out.... White Smoke last time I drove it a 5 mile trip...


VAG is showing NO codes except the Glow Plug issue which has been an ongoing Non issue here in FL... Its sluggish and eventually comes up to speed but something is wrong...


Any suggestions as to what would suddenly change from sitting for several weeks?

Thanks.... Ray

I've never put RTV on any of the water pumps, Honda or VW and never had a problem

Pull fuel out at the filter and see if you have water in your fuel

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Obvious thing might be a small air leak to fuel system in which case it would be back to normal next time you drive it.

Or just do a good reprime of the system but I've always had them fix it's self when it started, I'm intrigued on what's causing this one

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RTV on water pump O-ring...

WildChild80 said:

I've never put RTV on any of the water pumps, Honda or VW and never had a problem

Pull fuel out at the filter and see if you have water in your fuel

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Click to expand...

This Water Pump/ Timing Belt Job confirmed my mechanic-neighbor's rant "O-rings will wear, shrink, deteriorate and leak if you don't RTV (Black) them!"



I'm no Pro mechanic but It was only a 60K mile aged water pump and it was clearly blowing past an obviously deteriorated section of the o-ring... It was a mysterious leak at first where after a few months the over flow tank would hit the low mark and signal on the dash...



My wife just did a trip with it from mid Fl. here to Northern Michigan and back a month ago... I recently decided to drive it to band practice 18 miles away on a Wednesday evening and as i pulled into the parking lot the Low water Light came on as it was blowing steam from under the hood... I looked at the route where i drove into the parking lot and saw a trail of water/coolant....



I skipped band practice that night and took a gallon of fresh water to head home... Ended up stopping 4 times adding another gallon+ each time... Fortunately the second stop was a filling station where they had water on tap... It was leaking fast...



There was a dark area on the bottom of the water pump where it was leaking for awhile....... Thanking God my sweetie wasn't stranded on her trip with her sister with that mess... and she could have blown the head gasket if not caught the overheating it time....

And Yes, Wildchild80... My next thought was to see if there is water in the fuel filter.... In the morning my first order of business will be that...



And BobnOH... I was hoping the next drive would clear it up... Ive put about 20 miles on it (choking and chugging sometimes... and with White smoke then it would eventually gain speed but lacking her original spunk)

I guess I should buy stock in black RTV



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What water pump did you put on it when you did the timing belt?

I only use hepu metal impellar water pumps, I don't have the time or patience for a failure

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HEPU /metal impeller

WildChild80 said:

What water pump did you put on it when you did the timing belt?

I only use hepu metal impellar water pumps, I don't have the time or patience for a failure

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Click to expand...

I agree... I got one in a 100K T-Belt kit that included the HEPU/metal impeller Pump.... The Pump that had the o-ring failure was installed at a dealer by previous owner and it had a Plastic impeller... Ovbiously an inferior part...

Assuming it was actually changed...I have trust issues with someone else working on my car, I only trust 2 or 3 people and I'm one of them LoL

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Non-eventful Update: Today I checked the fuel from the filter draincock and it came out clear-ish and water free (all the same color) Just to make sure it wasn't all water I added some water to the cup I collected the fuel into and saw a distinct difference proving it is all fuel....



So I figured it's about time anyway to change out the filter and did so... Including the O-rings on the "Tee" Got it all primed and it started without a hiccup.... I also checked the vacuum line to the turbo and the electric plug that was on the tranny... everything looked okay



Went for a test drive and Got the same Extremely Sluggish acceleration with lots of smoke... I went ahead and put another 20 miles on it to possibly get any possible bubbles out of the fuel system... It was soo sluggish I had to pull over and let a car pass cause it was taking soo long to rev up in the gears... It eventually will run up to the 65 MPH that I drive on our country hiway... gets up to Hi gear and smooths out ... as it maintains speed the smoke minimizes to almost nul...



I was thinking : Maybe Its Turbo failure??? (since I had to push the motor forward to get the tans/gearbox out.. But I double checked the turbo hoses in case one was jarred loose) BUT What else would suddenly cause Turbo failure ??


I Just dont know What else to do......

See if the turbo actuator is working. First check, can you move it with your finger(s). 2nd test, does it move when you start the car. Then there is an adjustment, double nut on the rod. It wants to just start to move at 3.5 to 5.0 "/hg. The thing is connected to the turbo vanes, which control amount of boost. The actuator can be stuck or rusted through, the vanes can be frozen, sometimes freeing up just by hand operation.
Interweb guessing, there are other possibles.

RayGatz said:

This Water Pump/ Timing Belt Job confirmed my mechanic-neighbor's rant "O-rings will wear, shrink, deteriorate and leak if you don't RTV (Black) them!"


I'm no Pro mechanic but It was only a 60K mile aged water pump and it was clearly blowing past an obviously deteriorated section of the o-ring... It was a mysterious leak at first where after a few months the over flow tank would hit the low mark and signal on the dash...

Click to expand...

I've never RTV'd a water pump o-ring either, but was very frustrated that my last TB job (100k kit) only lasted 60k when the water pump o-ring started failing. This was a waterpump from an IDparts kit so it wasn't a no-name vendor. It led to a premature TB job which is not fun if your 100k kit is fine except that damn o-ring, forcing the job. All the other parts felt fine, and the old WP spun nice in the bearing with no play. I had taken all the right measures to clean the interfacing surfaces as well, including the bore the o-ring seats on.

As far as the lack of power, it's time to start hooking up the mightyvac. I would start at the vac pump, hook directly to it, start the car, and see what your vac reads and how long it takes to get to that value.

If your pump isn't producing enough vac though, you'd be having braking issues as well (ie hard pedal). You can check the line going from the pump to the booster, it's prone to failure, but then again you'd be seeing brake issues.

The vac canister is a supply for your n75. You should pull vac on that and see if it holds. If it leaks, not good (along with checking with what Bob suggested on the turbo actuator.

Thanks KrashDH and BobnOH ... I was on that track this afternoon and found that the vacuum hose where it connects to the actuator at the Turbo was brittle and leaking vacuum... Things got a bit more complicated from there...



I pulled the hose Which is now a 3/16 heavy 2 layer hose (I replaced it about a year or so ago...) What led me to that was as I lay under the car I had raised up on ramps, looking up with a flashlight, I noticed a heavily chaffed spot on that hose where it was rubbing something...



Anyway I cut off an inch of the hose and pushed the fresh end onto the actuator/diaphragm nipple and carefully Pulled the other end off the N75... Pulled a suction with my mouth and observed the movement... and it appears to hold a vacuum well now...



Anyway I ended up cutting out an inch at the chaffed spot and jerry rigged it with a short piece of metal tubing i had rummaged up... Then on a second thought I decided "Ill just replace the whole tube" so the second time while pulling it from the N75 to measure the whole hose I Created a NEW Problem as I BROKE the nipple off the N75 Valve!
So... Now I gotta replace that too...


I do have 2 Questions though Maybe You guys can Help me with ....

As I pulled the hose it looks like the Actuator nipple is about 1/16 of an inch diameter smaller than the N75 nipple... Which makes for a tight fit on the N75 and a "so so" snug fit on the actuator.... Should I rig a reducer so it fits Tight??


Second Question: I noticed a loose connection on the cam cover vent hose... so as i prepared to put a clamp on it I noticed that the nipple is loose and spins freely while it doesn't come out of the cam cover cap it has a tiny bit of free play... Is that supposed to be Air Tight ??

If it makes you feel better you can throw a tiny zip tie on the vacuum line

The only nipple that could be loose in the vicinity of the valve or cam cover is the vacuum pump

Are you talking about the black plastic piece? Or the hose that goes to the brake booster?

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IT is most likely the Vacuum Pump... It engages with the end of the cam and has a large nipple extending toward the windshield I just dealt with it on the other tdi when I did the T-Belt.... THis one had a Zip tie on the hose and I noticed it seeming to fit loosely so I cut the zip tie off and put a screw tightened clamp on it then noticed it is still loose (The Nipple loose from the pump as I described above)

Yep, that's your vacuum pump, the easiest way to fix it assuming the pump is good is to make a jb weld collar for it and just encase the nipple to the neck, I was thinking about just threading a Barb into it but there's a check valve in there too so probably not a great idea and every good mechanic be it shade tree or shop should have some jb weld...I only had jb stick for the lower receiver repair when I machined through it when I was cutting it...the rifle shoots fine and it's a great conversation piece...

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I may go to the U-Pick boneyard and see if there are any TDI's before attempting the JB weld fix... they sell parts really cheap at the u pic...



I was there last week for the Alumimum tranny mount bracket Which is universal for gasser's and TDI manual Trans... This one had a Badly stripped out vertical large bolt hole and there's only Two of them holding up the whole tranny side of the motor... It was relatively painless at $15.00 plus tax considering a new one i could find online were between $135 and $200+



They had a about 6 or 7 2003 jettas and several 01 -02 I just went for the first one that had manual trans and dint really look for TDI's....



I made an observation though as i walked through the boneyard noticing a few 00 to 05 Jetta Gassers there were totally burnt in the front end apparently from engine fires... Nothing but melted formless alloy under those hoods....

Look for any cracks / splits in that black plastic hard tube that goes from the vacuum pump to the brake booster (on the firewall behind brake fluid reservoir); moving the engine around (like you might when doing a TB job, sometimes put stress on that piece and it gets a little crack in it).

I've seen them only crack where you couldn't really see it...be thorough

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Same.
As a temp fix, I wrapped one with silicone tape....and then 50K km later, I remembered that I still hadn't bought a replacement.

Update... our boneyard had no TDI's to get another pump or N75... anyway, I have a new N75 coming tomorrow with new vacuum lines.... As for the Vacuum Pump .. I Pulled it this AM and tinkered with it...



Apparently it is designed to have some movement and is likely sealed with an O-ring or something I pulled a Vacuum and turned the nipple and it remained air tight... SO I re Installed it and assume the Main problem was the Vacuum hose to the turbo......


I did inspect the Vacuum lines and found another chaffed and replaced it... We shall See Tomorrow as usually by Noon my parts delivered by USPS come...

RayGatz said:

This Water Pump/ Timing Belt Job confirmed my mechanic-neighbor's rant "O-rings will wear, shrink, deteriorate and leak if you don't RTV (Black) them!"

Click to expand...

Um no. You don't put RTV on that. He's wrong. I've done many timing belt jobs and never have heard of such nonsense. Nowhere here will you find that is standard operating procedure. If the O-ring was somehow damaged when you installed the pump it may have left an area to deteriorate. It should go into the engine smoothly.

You should lubricate the ring with coolant/water before you install. If you have corrosion in the area where the Oring would seal then you have to clean that up. You should not have corrosion there if the proper amount of G12 coolant has been used at all times.

Water pumps can have the shaft seal go bad and start to leak, but that's not the oring. It will start out as a slow seep, then work its way to something noticeable. They can also have the shaft bearings go bad (happened to me).

Second the o-ring lube, and *NO* rtv on them. The fastest way to make an air-cooled Bug leak was to rtv the pushrod tube O-rings...LOL Grease is good, but it had better not mess with anything it is sealing....Krytox is brilliant in that respect.
cheers,
Douglas

THE VERDICT IS IN! And the car is FIXED!.... Short answer is "Mud Daubber" After all vulnerable vacuum leaks were eliminated (Most were minor)... I got Over 30 Vacuum pressure FAST at idle...


Tried to drive it and STILL NO CHANGE... Now what I discovered After that: While i meticulously had Big and not so big holes plugged with rags while hoses were off the motor, I diddnt cover One small VAccum hose to the air cleaner... IT .. in those 2 weeks the car was up and waiting for parts... It had been clogged by a Mud Daubber (My only omission Bit me in the Butt) I cleared the hose... Blew it out well and VARRRROOOOM ! She Runs like her former Glory.... Thanks All for the input... I hope this helps somebody....

For those of us who don't live in the swamplands of Florida, a Mud Dauber is a type of wasp.
(I had to look it up. )

I knew you could get away with that hose not connected, it often gets ignored, but apparently it does need to be open to atmosphere.

WP Insurance For Me... Warning understood... ;-)

jokila said:

Um no. You don't put RTV on that. He's wrong. I've done many timing belt jobs and never have heard of such nonsense. Nowhere here will you find that is standard operating procedure. ....

"Water pumps can have the shaft seal go bad and start to leak, but that's not the oring. It will start out as a slow seep, then work its way to something noticeable. They can also have the shaft bearings go bad (happened to me)".

Click to expand...

Yes... I thought so and did a T-belt job without RTV on WP before... But THIS one No Doubt had O-ring failure.. Had the right coolant forever... and according to previous owner's receipt the 'Stealer' (VW dealer) installed it... I was Miffed as it forced a 100K maintenance job at 60K ... THere was a darkened/corroded area of the WP where the O-ring was blowing coolant for months (Very slowly at first)



I understand the warning though about rtv on many other O-ring applications (Thanks.. ) I know it could foul up things And I do take note of your wisdom... But on a 100K Water Pump I am Making an Exception from now on... I don,t want to do a Premature T-belt Job again because GEBA may have outsourced their O-rings to some cheap Chinese factory...

Thought you said it was a hepu

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RayGatz said:

Yes... I thought so and did a T-belt job without RTV on WP before... But THIS one No Doubt had O-ring failure.. Had the right coolant forever... and according to previous owner's receipt the 'Stealer' (VW dealer) installed it... I was Miffed as it forced a 100K maintenance job at 60K ... THere was a darkened/corroded area of the WP where the O-ring was blowing coolant for months (Very slowly at first)



I understand the warning though about rtv on many other O-ring applications (Thanks.. ) I know it could foul up things And I do take note of your wisdom... But on a 100K Water Pump I am Making an Exception from now on... I don,t want to do a Premature T-belt Job again because GEBA may have outsourced their O-rings to some cheap Chinese factory...

Click to expand...

You are making a big assumption with one data point for evidence. Good luck getting that pump to come out the next time it needs to be replaced; it's already hard enough without having to deal with RTV.

It's more plausible it was something else, anything but some factory chinese factor. Bearing failures have been noted here and so have impellers detaching from the shaft. Anyone installing a part with an oring knows they have to be careful lest they tear or nick the oring. If you have ever replaced the seals on an IP, that's a big deal to be very careful how you assemble.