TB job runs amok, forum brother NEEDS help

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OK, this all started about 6 weeks ago when forum brother bcost (Brian) removed the engine from his 2000 Jetta (115k miles) to do a timing belt, install an x-flow IC, VR6 clutch and a few other maintenance items.

As of earlier this week, most work had been completed and the car ready to be re-assembled. New TB was installed and the engine rotated freely while on the engine stand…no obvious issues, everything looking good. Brian got the engine re-installed and the transmission bolted up. For some reason, they can ONLY turn the engine about 180* and then it hits something “blunt”. The engine can then be rotated 180* in the opposite direction and hits something “blunt” again. They thought a bolt may have dropped in (following transmission installation) and was causing interference.

Today they removed the TB and have lifter the cam. For some reason one of the lifters does not appear normal and can be depressed by finger…it’s only one lifter…the others all appear normal (meaning they can’t be depressed).

They are getting ready to remove the head to see what’s going on.

Is the head gasket re-usable? Do the studs have to be replaced after the head has been removed? Right now the starter is out, slave cylinder is out and TB removed.

I know they’re getting kind of frustrated with it so if anyone has any great ideas, I didn’t, they sure would appreciate it.

Brian, Bill and Alex are at 781 551 3399

Thanks for any insight!

My first suggestion, remove the cam:

Mark with BLACK PERM. MARKER the #1, #2, #3, #4 #5 bearing caps so you know the order AND orientation!!! Them remove the caps and the cam.

With the cam removed rotate the motor BY HAND. This will allow the engine to turn without hitting anything. This will eliminate the possibility of something in the motor.

Its possible that you have a lifter that is not leaking down (takes 30 minutes) and its causing the engine to hit a valve when turning by hand.

I suggest removing all the lifters (no specific order) and inspect them to make sure there is no cracking or shattering from a valve trying to compress it. If all the lifter look good you should be fine.

You CANNOT reuse a head gasket or the head bolts...Just don't try it.

Start with that and take it from there.

DB

Pete, thanks for your guidance. I just spoke with him and he has chatted with Herm, too. I guess they feel a valve is probably bent. I asked him to telephone you before they go any further.

Thanks as always!

Pete gives a good suggestion about taking the cam bearings out and turning the engine over to rule out a mistimed cam that might force the valves against the piston. I might just add that when doing so, to observe that all the lifters are protruding roughly the same distance out of the bore to make sure it's not a stuck lifter or valve.

However, something sounds odd to me if you say that you can turn the engine (and I assume you're referring to the crank here) 180* before feeling like hitting something blunt. I assume the cam was locked in the proper manner, so I really don't think it's the cam timing. Are you sure that the resistance you're feeling is not just compression? Loosen all the injectors out of their holes and see if you have the same resistance. Quick 5 minute check.

Maybe something wasn't put on right when the tranny was mated back to the engine?

Maybe something wasn't put on right when the tranny was mated back to the engine?

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TDIMeister, thanks a lot for posting. I know Brian really appreciates it.

I am afraid your above comment is dead-on. Things went wrong when the trans was re-installed with the VR6 kit. I guess there was some confusion about whether the gasser flywheel reference timing mark was valid for a diesel.

I do not believe any locking devices were used and Brian attempted to make reference marks with a pen. It’s my understanding that Brian didn’t have any of the traditional (Metalnerd) TB tools.

I spoke with Brian about two hours ago. They were gonna pull the head off to see how much damage occurred. They are fortunate in that they have local access to a very good machine shop that can take care of required repairs. They are taking it all in stride and making it a routine repair.


Thx.

Hard to beleive that turning it over by hand would have bent a valve. I would do a leak down beore I pulled the head.

I put a VR6 clutch in for my buddy next door last fall. I did his timing belt just last week. First thing I noticed was the mark was not right with the cam position. So I pulled #1 glow plug and used a dail indicator to make sure it was on TDC. If someone else would have done the job I am sure they would of had a wrecked motor. Beleive me since wrecking a motor a couple of years ago the old dial indicator has been used a lot.

Greg

Well, it was a long day but I figured out what went wrong.

The timing was good! Injection pump was off via the "common" mistake. Thanks to Drivebywire for his help there.

So if I did not screw up timing what happened?? There was a fourign object in cylinder #4. It was tiny, the thickness of a pencil lead and less then a 1/4 inch long. It must have "hid" in the fuel bowl while I was turning the engine by hand. Then when I put the starter to it, out she popped and I got one ruined head and cylinder. it stinks.

I have no idea how it got in there. I did change the nozzles, but I was super careful. I take a little solice in the fact that I did not screw up the cam and crank timing. Good for me.

I do have either a whole lot of work to do, or a rebuilt engine to shop for. any used PD's out there??

I owe a super huge THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!! to all the people who helped.

dieseldorf: you are #1 in my book. I really appericate all the work you did for me. truely above and beyound what anyone would expect.

Herm: thanks for your time and knowledgble words. you put me on the right path. This guy knows these motors inside and out, and is one very nice person. Thank you again.

DbW: thanks for your knowledgble write up, and spot on comments about my problem. Your advice helped to diagnose the problem

pics to come soon. please advise they are not pretty


Thanks again:

Brian Costello "btcost"

Finding the problem is always a relief even if it's not a welcome relief.

Does anyone care to comment on the lifter thing?

Brian, I am very sorry to hear this diagnosis. I curious to know what the foreign object is. It's a shame there's so much damage.

Glad to "help"...I sure wish I could have offered some technical guidance but the TB job isn't my thing and I have no interest in learning it when I have access to someone like Herm who can perform it in his sleep and not end up with engine damage. That's the e-z way out for me

You'll find there are plenty of good people here at Fred's willing to help out in a "crisis". There are many giving people, some with extensive knowledge - - they're what makes Fred's a cut above when compared to other car clubs I am a member of - - these guys really do go out of their way, it's very refreshing to see kindness can exist!

Lemme know when you're ready for VAGCOM and I'll drop by

Good luck.

A bent valve will NOT allow the lifter to be dpressed with one finger unless the spring is broken. Remove the cam and the lifers all and measure the bore from tappet top to top of bore for symmetry. The low ones are bent valves. The lifters should be replaced as well. if no low ones, or just a couple, remove the springs and see if they are broken. Alternatively, perform a cylinder leakage test. This will tell you if valves are bent without removing anything.


Most importantly, DO NOT EVER DO A TIMING BELT WITHOUT THE PROPER TOOLS. I told you that when we were at your shop, and you assured me the enging rotated fine. CAll me at 5089449515, or 7818495888. I'll lend you the stuff to do the job right, or help you if you wish. CHILL

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OK, everyone together now:

"OUCH!"

moondawg

any idea what got into this engine and how? or did the valves do all of that?

O U C H ! ! ! !

My first thought... "GOD DAMN!"

Dude! I am really sorry you blew the piston like that!

Advice for repairing:

Replace the piston as a set because they are matched. The ALH uses sister pistons. If I recall #4 is matched with #3 to maintain balance. As far as a head I can't see anyway around having to replace it. That much damage will warp the #4 region without a doubt beyond tolerances.

The Block should be fine.

Based on the fact the aluminum is pretty well dimpled I would assume and guess that the rod is fine. The piston took the brunt of the damage and being softer than the rod it deformed instead of the rod. If absolute reliability is a factor I would err on the side of replacing the rods PITA but there is a good chance they are fine.

When its all bolted back together do a piston protrusion check above the cylinder deck. This will tell the tale before you get it all bolted back together.

Keep us posted in terms of what happens with the motor and how it turns out.

Good luck!
DB

You can replace just that piston and you will be fine. I know of a few that have been done that way and they run great and have for 10's of thousands of miles. If you can find a single piston I have one right and one left hand, as well as rods.

Greg

I have a question. I see that there are metal filings in the exhaust runner from the damaged cylinder. Depending on how long the motor ran, wouldnt those metal bits damage the exhaust side of the turbo on their way out?

"When its all bolted back together do a piston protrusion check above the cylinder deck. This will tell the tale before you get it all bolted back together."

So do the protrusion check before or after it's all bolted back together?

Depending on how long the motor ran, wouldnt those metal bits damage the exhaust side of the turbo on their way out?

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Poops, yes, there should be concern about filings being inside the turbine...someone else made mention of this

The engine never ran - - I think this damaged occurred when Brian spun the engine with the starter. Brian should clarify this.

In addition, isn't there some chance the bearing on that piston has been damaged?


I am under the impression this engine needs a LOT of work to make it right.

Well I had FOD too. All I did was replace the piston/rod w/ a used one. there was some markings on the wall of the cylinder but it didn't catch a fingernail so I did no honing.

and this is what it did to my turbo:



Sorry to hear it man, major bummer

Wow Brian - what bad luck!

So sorry to see those awful pics. I know it's been a long wait and I'm sad to see you out of a diesel even longer.

I hope that things come together real soon for you. We're with you in spirit - hope you get back to sooting real soon!

Julie

No the engine never ran, luckily!! the damage would have been much worse.

The engine did turn over by hand after the new timing belt was installed, turned over very nicely in fact. I believe my injection timing was off, and that is what got this thread started.

As I began to go through DBW's procedure, I soon learned that I was no longer able to turn the motor by hand. something new was a miss . . . .

It turned out to be a little hunk of metal, about the size of a pencil lead. I do not know HOW it got in there. It either entered after the TB change or "hid" in there as I turned the motor by hand, and then jumped out when the starter was used.

just as point of information I do not own or operate Dentsport Garage. I am not a customer of theirs, they did not screw up my engine I DID. Dentsport is just letting me use their garage.

I did not want to give them a bad rap because of MY mistake.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

I am going to replace the whole motor. I know I may not need to but after the $$$ spent on a new head and all the time with new pistons . . . .. I will just bit the bullit and go with a whole "new" package.

Something with relativly low miles, any suggestions on where to look are apperciated

Brian

I am going to replace the whole motor. I know I may not need to but after the $$$ spent on a new head and all the time with new pistons . . . .. I will just bit the bullit and go with a whole "new" package.

Something with relativly low miles, any suggestions on where to look are apperciated

Brian

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I believe oldpoopie has one for sale. 50k miles. Don't quote me on that. Ask him.

moondawg

I am going to replace the whole motor. I know I may not need to but after the $$$ spent on a new head and all the time with new pistons . . . .. I will just bit the bullit and go with a whole "new" package.

Something with relativly low miles, any suggestions on where to look are apperciated

Brian

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I believe oldpoopie has one for sale. 50k miles. Don't quote me on that. Ask him.

moondawg

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Not me, but Oldman I believe. Easy to get confused.....

I am going to replace the whole motor. I know I may not need to but after the $$$ spent on a new head and all the time with new pistons . . . .. I will just bit the bullit and go with a whole "new" package.

Something with relativly low miles, any suggestions on where to look are apperciated

Brian

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I believe oldpoopie has one for sale. 50k miles. Don't quote me on that. Ask him.

moondawg

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Not me, but Oldman I believe. Easy to get confused.....

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I knew it was one of you "old" guys! Saw a post a few days ago in another thread. Sorry for the confusion!
Brian, I hope you find something to your liking!

moondawg

Here's someone selling a PD130 motor. Maybe that would be a good starting point. LINK

If it's no too late:
I was searching for an 11mm pump and found this:
Spalding Auto Parts USA-WA(Spokane) E-mail 1-800-366-2070

Complete Engine from auto (injectors, FP...) $2800 - only bummer, no turbo
A little pricey but get this... 6K miles!
If I had it, I would buy this bird as a spare. It's brand new.

A little Bump to this thread with an update.

I found a motor useing car-part.com it was in Upstate NY

2001 85k $1700 plus $150 shipping, and get this I got the motor in LESS that 24 hours. even they (Tolpa's salvage) were shocked by how fast I got the motor .

I am changing the timing belt, and putting my VR6 flywheel and clutch on. both of those brand new parts came off the old motor.

after I get her up and running I will put in the Sprint nozzles and then chip it.

I tried to do everything at once last time, too many variables.

any locals stop by any time!!

I will have a lot of parts for sale soon.

Brian

I will have a lot of parts for sale soon.

Brian

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There are some folks looking for injection pumps. Any help there?

Brian, that's excellent news. Let me know when/if VAGCOM is needed.

any locals stop by any time!!

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yes, do this. I have been in this situation and it is a great help to have anyone interested pop in.