Air to water cooler.... why don't i see a lot?

http://frozenboost.com/

why don't i see a lot of people on here or anyone for that matter running those?
i would guess it can reduce lag because there is less intake piping to fill up with air.

Because they're more complicated and require more maintenance. Lag also isn't a very big issue with these cars when they're stock or even moderately modded.

I have a large FMIC and if the lag is greater it is a millisecond lag that I do not notice.

Yes more maintenance for sure with water.

Lag from a large intercooler is a myth. The airflow from the turbo is so large it swamps whatever volume you have before the head.

Air/water are complex and expensive, air/air does just fine in nearly all applications.

UFO said:

Lag from a large intercooler is a myth. The airflow from the turbo is so large it swamps whatever volume you have before the head.

Air/water are complex and expensive, air/air does just fine in nearly all applications.

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Bingo! KISS (keep it simple stupid) Air/water setups have distinct advantages in drag racing as you could use ice water to keep temps super low. When you are actually moving constantly, large IC's keep your IAT's very close to ambient and they don't require extra hoses, pumps, etc...

Farfromovin said:

Bingo! KISS (keep it simple stupid) Air/water setups have distinct advantages in drag racing as you could use ice water to keep temps super low. When you are actually moving constantly, large IC's keep your IAT's very close to ambient and they don't require extra hoses, pumps, etc...

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Yep - my dad's 1800 hp mustang with a giant turbo running 44lbs of boost uses 50 lbs of ice per run. He has a Manitowoc cuber in the race trailer. I think for our relatively small turbos the air/air are just fine.

water to air is good for guys who run a Stock looking OEM golf and refuse to modify the front bumper. There is no other way but Water to air or dual side mounts. Dual side mounts are a waste of money. Water to air is complicated for the average joe. For some, fixing the sink tap is to complicated, for others hydraulic systems are second nature.

You do not see anything for TDI specific in huge quantities. You may think the market is huge, but its not. Pretty much everything you get for TDI regarding performance is hand made in low quantities. One reasoning for the pricing.

Other reason why Water to air is not popular is because air to air is enough for most guys. Many TDI'er are cheap as hell. Most TDIers run their tdis as daily drivers, refusing to go to crazy on the car.

Many on here think it is crazy to spend 6-8,000 USD to mod a TDI properly to 180-200 whp. In the BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, its normal to spend 20-30 grand. properly done bmw m3 turbo kit cost 20-30 grand.

Are you willing to pay $1500 for a water to air setup? Hell 2.0T APR intercooler air to air cost $1500. people ***** about much lower prices.

The water to air is under $400 if you look on that site and you have to run 2 hoses and 2 wires

sardo_67 said:

The water to air is under $400 if you look on that site and you have to run 2 hoses and 2 wires

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Dream on, another person who just never has done it before. Let me know how it goes for $400. NO WAY you will get all the materials for $400. Think like $1000 at least.

For a drag racing situation (short bursts of high power) air to water has an advantage.

For a long uphill slog up a 6 percent grade for 5 miles while towing a trailer ... air to air is the best. An air to water intercooler would get heat soaked and become ineffective unless it had a water to air radiator larger than a normal air to air intercooler so that the water temperature could be kept down ...

You don't see transport trucks with air to water intercoolers, either. They ALL use large air-to-air intercoolers.

Air-to-water intercooler plus pump plus wiring plus controls plus the water to air radiator is a lot more cost (and weight and things to go wrong) than an air to air intercooler ...

Lalwlz, water is only good for short bursts of cooling.
And the money-to-cooling ratio is crazy (in a bad way).

TDI's do not run that hot ANYWAYS.
If yours runs hot, get a bigger intercooling and also check if you are running lean.

Another note is, your engine bay is complicated and cluttered as it is. Do you really want to make your engine bay worse for something that will not pay off enough?

Proper air-to-water IC systems for street applications are NEVER, EVER intended to be stagnant but rather to flow through another heat exchanger to ambient, where this HX could be placed in a more advantageous location or where packaging constraints preclude an optimal air-to-air HX.

i pieced everything together off the site and it's 450. i was thinking about something like this guy....
http://www.greasecarmotorsports.com/follow-the-team/rally/

yes it does seem odd to me but i'll probably give it a try and see how it works.

not cluttered at all and no extra hoses running anywhere

Pretty sure its just no put back together yet. there's a pretty good sized hose fitting right there.

sardo_67 said:

i pieced everything together off the site and it's 450. i was thinking about something like this guy....
http://www.greasecarmotorsports.com/follow-the-team/rally/

yes it does seem odd to me but i'll probably give it a try and see how it works.

not cluttered at all and no extra hoses running anywhere

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Let us know how it goes.

That photo is ONLY the air-to-water intercooler/manifold.

Not shown are the hoses with water to and from that manifold, and that water needs to be pumped, and it needs to be coming from (and pumped through) something else, i.e. another radiator to keep the water temperature down ...

GoFaster said:

That photo is ONLY the air-to-water intercooler/manifold.

Not shown are the hoses with water to and from that manifold, and that water needs to be pumped, and it needs to be coming from (and pumped through) something else, i.e. another radiator to keep the water temperature down ...

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Exactly. No doubt can you get the actual air to water intercooler for $400 or even much less. But, that picture of the engine above with the custom intake manifold, plus the custom pipework alone is well over $400. Add the extra parts quoted above by GoFaster here, and we're pushing the $1000 envelope that Kasper was talking about.

My sense is that although the AWIC has that brass fitting for water to flow to another heat exchanger AS IT'S SUPPOSED TO, there's nothing connected to it, or the picture is showing the setup at an incomplete state.

Yeahhh, that's way more than $450 worth of stuff, and as others have pointed out, the picture doesn't even show its completed state.

sardo_67 said:

yes it does seem odd to me but i'll probably give it a try and see how it works.

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So you asked the question just to be curious, not to actually utilize any of the advice huh? Got it.

Not one of the 10 members who replied agreed that it's a smart decision, but it's your money and your car as usual.

I don't think that an air-to-water intercooler is an appropriate choice for a TDI. It is more complex in operation and installation, costs more money, requires significant custom fabrication, and does not provide any actual benefits in a daily-driver or track-racer application. The only practical application that I can think of for an air-water intercooler would be where you want intake temps below ambient (which requires ice or refrigeration of the cooling loop)... think drag racing or maybe auto-cross.

But hey, if you want to try it... go for it!

Just my $0.02

Technically, this is air-water-air, since the intake air is cooled by water, which is in turn cooled by ambient air. Save a step and stick with air-air. True air-water is used for boats, where the cooling loop is cooled by the surrounding body of water (like the engine's cooling system).

i run water to air on 3 of my cars it has its place and a PROPER DESIGN DOES NOT GET HEAT SOAKED! so unless you have experience with both you might sound like an idiot air to air works very good on most application but try putting a good air to air setup on a corrado! my track car runs water to air and it works amazing! water to air and air to air both have their place

In cool region, Air/water have some good point.
FMIC are not good for milage on highway when weather are at -20c, timing rise, 6 to 8 degree are common (-1 to 2 in summer), with air/water intercooler, shut off the pump for higher IAT.



Dieseleux

the guy has it running on his race car and he likes it. no i'm not going to ignore the advice given by the members here.... ok well i kinda will since i'm probably going to try it. i just wasn't sure if people do have them but not many. i want to use it and see if it actually works, i want to try something new. if it doesn't work i can always put an air to air on it, for me and my situation this it easier and more cost effective. has anyone here actually tried one?

search tdisyncro's setup and refer to 13mmwrench's post above your's.

Air-water is great for tight applications... saw one on a Doka TDI conversion, but it wasn't working right, causing horrible heat-soak. Either the pump was dead, there was an air bubble in the system, or it was just too small to deal with the heat load.

Uhhhumm! I will step in here if nobody minds.

I have an air to water inter-cooler that i have yet to install. It is essentially the larger, 600hp frozen boost unit. I have a 12v pump and a large heat exchanger to go with it.

I don't have anywhere near $1,000 in my system...hell I don't have $100 in my system. I bought the Inter-cooler off e-bay with a sniped bid for less than $75, my exchanger is a v6 Grand-Am(Pontiac) radiator, and I have a cheapo 18gpm bilge pump for a circulation pump.

I have carefully over time accumulated my parts, on the cheap, because I drive a Bug, and if you've never tried to work under the hood of a New Beetle, you've never seen tight spaces. Oh and did I mention that the inter-cooler was cheeeep!

sardo_67 said:

the guy has it running on his race car and he likes it. no i'm not going to ignore the advice given by the members here.... ok well i kinda will since i'm probably going to try it. i just wasn't sure if people do have them but not many. i want to use it and see if it actually works, i want to try something new. if it doesn't work i can always put an air to air on it, for me and my situation this it easier and more cost effective. has anyone here actually tried one?

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I already told you I have tried one. It cost me $1500. Yes it works, 100% for the purpose it was designed. It is super stealth. Make sure you got a big water reservoir. Key factor to make it efficient.

In racing applications Water to air has an advantage so your FMIC does not get heat socked when your right behind someones bumper.

Only reason why I would go water to air is to preserve the stock front end on the golf. FMIC does not fit on a GOLF. Requires a lot of work, and it will never look stock.

The Shootist said:

Uhhhumm! I will step in here if nobody minds.

I have an air to water inter-cooler that i have yet to install. It is essentially the larger, 600hp frozen boost unit. I have a 12v pump and a large heat exchanger to go with it.

I don't have anywhere near $1,000 in my system...hell I don't have $100 in my system. I bought the Inter-cooler off e-bay with a sniped bid for less than $75, my exchanger is a v6 Grand-Am(Pontiac) radiator, and I have a cheapo 18gpm bilge pump for a circulation pump.

I have carefully over time accumulated my parts, on the cheap, because I drive a Bug, and if you've never tried to work under the hood of a New Beetle, you've never seen tight spaces. Oh and did I mention that the inter-cooler was cheeeep!

Click to expand...

that's what i was thinking of doing and maybe an extra few gallon reservior in the trunk that's plumbed in to prevent heat soak.

how hot does an Air to air cooler get, like can i put my hand on one right after you've been driving it really hard for say 15min or so?