Timing issue

I have a 2003 Jetta with the alh and I want to check the timing on it but I don't have a VAG-COM. I do have a Snap On Ethos scanner and it can read the timing but I don't know what the parameters are supposed to be or how to read it. I have a suspicion that the timing is retarded. Has anyone had experience with the Snap On scanner and lead me in the right direction here?

Can you start with some background? What makes you suspect it is retarded? You will need a VagCom. Locate someone in your area.

http://www.maptive.com/ver3/VCDS_Locator

I just bought this car a few weeks ago.....It seems to start hard, after its been setting for a while like it's injecting fuel too late. I work on diesel engines but I am not that familiar with the TDI engine and what is "normal". Lets say the temperature is 30 degrees F and I drive the car and let it set for 4 hours and try to start it, it will flash the glow plug light but wont stay on and the engine will crank quite a but before it fires. I have done a cold start at -4 but the I run the glow plugs twice and they stay on for about 10 seconds at a time. If the glow plugs would actually stay on when then I think it would start better but I think it should still start better than it does at 30F without glow plugs

The glow plug light is not a pilot light. The pre-glow lasts ~ 23 seconds; so no need to run twice. Just wait another 10 or 15 seconds after the light goes out before cranking. After four hours I would think that the engine would have cooled down enough to activate the glow plugs in Idaho Winter weather.

JB05 said:

The glow plug light is not a pilot light. The pre-glow lasts ~ 23 seconds; so no need to run twice. Just wait another 10 or 15 seconds after the light goes out before cranking. After four hours I would think that the engine would have cooled down enough to activate the glow plugs in Idaho Winter weather.

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Not sure what you are saying about 23 second glow time. By default it's about a second or so.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=123304

Cycling the key off and back on will make the glow plugs reenergize.

I have a Volt Gauge on my ALH in the Vanagon... When the GP light goes out, the Volt Gauge stays the same for 5 to 10 seconds, depending on the ambient and/or engine temp.

Also, there have been numerous individuals advised to turn on the dome light and watch for it to "brighten-up" when the GPs stop glowing ......... much longer than an instant!

Keep in mind, the GPs become cherry red from the metal shank to the tip! Thus, no real need to glow twice.

OP, how does your engine start on a cold morning after sitting all night? A leaky Injection Pump seal at the shaft can cause hard starting due to fuel loss...

EDIT: Per the link, extending GP time length is somewhat helpful. However, if there was a way to increase the temperature when the GPs come on would probably be more of a benefit for the older high mileage engines!

farmboy12357 said:

I just bought this car a few weeks ago.....It seems to start hard, after its been setting for a while like it's injecting fuel too late. I work on diesel engines but I am not that familiar with the TDI engine and what is "normal". Lets say the temperature is 30 degrees F and I drive the car and let it set for 4 hours and try to start it, it will flash the glow plug light but wont stay on and the engine will crank quite a but before it fires. I have done a cold start at -4 but the I run the glow plugs twice and they stay on for about 10 seconds at a time. If the glow plugs would actually stay on when then I think it would start better but I think it should still start better than it does at 30F without glow plugs

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You may very well be right about the timing being out or retarded.

About half the tdi's that I check the timing on are out enough to cause starting issues.

First you should check the static timing, making sure that the crank, cam and inj pump are properly in time.

If and when that checks out the injection pump timing needs to be fine tuned using vcds.

Having the timing bang on greatly impacts cold starting as well as milage and performance.

In order to set the static timing it is helpful to have the proper tools to lock the cam and pump in proper tdc position.....
http://www.idparts.com/timing-belt-tools-a4-alh-p-1262.html

checking and setting the timing is covered in this pdf on how to change a timing belt......

www.tdiclub.com/articles/pdf/a4timingbelt.pdf

or...http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/a...nt-vw-jetta-tdi-golf-beetle-1998-2003-part-1/

PS ..... if your glow plug light is on for about 10 seconds below freezing that sounds about right for an alh.
As stated obove the glow plugs do stay on and continue to glow for a while after the light goes out....glowing twice should not be necesary and will just drain your battery more causing slower cranking.

I have started the engine at -4F without being plugged in. It definitely doesn't like it but it will start. seems to start harder when it's 30F with the glowplug light turning on for 1 second. i was able to hooked a snap on scanner to it. Don't know if it was as good as a VCDS but it showed the timing. The range was 39 to 79 degrees before TDC with the average being 59. My car was about 50 and I havent messed with changing the timing yet, Does any of that seem right or am I wasting my time?

You really need VCDS (VAG COM Diagnostic System) to tweak the timing.

If you loosen the three bolts on the IP Sprocket, just the slightest movement will change the timing significantly. VCDS shows the timing in a graph, only, and only, when the engine is at the proper temperature (at or above 85c). If the Timing is off the graph, especially retarded, the engine will be extremely hard to start, if not impossible, even on a 70 degree day!

So, VCDS is what you need ........... find a Guru!

Set the static timing. When that's done it will be very close or spot on on the timing.
Read the tb PDF and follow the instructions, the cam slot needs to be level when the crank is at TDC and then the IP pin should slide in.
Fab your own tool for the cam and use a 6mm drill bit for the IP.
No need for VCDS at this stage.

He does need VCDS............. the engine runs, just doesn't start good! You can set the Static Timing and still be at Retarded timing, or worse! I have the tools and have been there and done that!

AndyBees said:

He does need VCDS............. the engine runs, just doesn't start good! You can set the Static Timing and still be at Retarded timing, or worse! I have the tools and have been there and done that!

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Yes but the static timing has to be set first, for that he doesn't need VCDS.
Or that's how I would do it anyway, I like to confirm that the engine is timed before any fine tuning. But there's always more than one way to skin a cat

Or pop the cam cover off, loosen the three IP pulley bolts, bump the IP shaft towards the front of the car and take a test drive. Nothing bad will happen, unless you loose the starting point of the adjustments. Go too far and it will sound awful, too far retarded and it will be hard to start and smoke alot. Not the preferred way unless you don't mind fine tuning over and over again

Start with the static timing, on a VE TDI the timing will be very close and probably better than it is now. If it was a PD I'd advice against doing anything without VCDS or OBDeleven.

maxmoo said:

You may very well be right about the timing being out or retarded.

About half the tdi's that I check the timing on are out enough to cause starting issues.

First you should check the static timing, making sure that the crank, cam and inj pump are properly in time.

If and when that checks out the injection pump timing needs to be fine tuned using vcds.

Having the timing bang on greatly impacts cold starting as well as milage and performance.

In order to set the static timing it is helpful to have the proper tools to lock the cam and pump in proper tdc position.....
http://www.idparts.com/timing-belt-tools-a4-alh-p-1262.html

checking and setting the timing is covered in this pdf on how to change a timing belt......

www.tdiclub.com/articles/pdf/a4timingbelt.pdf

or...http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/a...nt-vw-jetta-tdi-golf-beetle-1998-2003-part-1/

PS ..... if your glow plug light is on for about 10 seconds below freezing that sounds about right for an alh.
As stated obove the glow plugs do stay on and continue to glow for a while after the light goes out....glowing twice should not be necesary and will just drain your battery more causing slower cranking.

Click to expand...

If you are going to do your own work on an alh tdi you WILL need to understand and follow the above procedure!

And you WILL need a vcds cable.
https://store.ross-tech.com/shop/vchv2_ent/

or better yet grab a used one....
http://forums.tdiclub.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16

Yes but with the static timing set it will be close enough to not cause any starting problems. Which is why I suggested to start with that.
Whatever, good luck to the OP, hope you get it figured out!

nokivasara said:

Yes but with the static timing set it will be close enough to not cause any starting problems. Which is why I suggested to start with that.
Whatever, good luck to the OP, hope you get it figured out!

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I am not disagreeing with you.

Often when I set the static timing very carefully......no further adjustment is needed with vcds but I am anal about getting it perfect and rechecking and correcting after rotating the engine by hand a couple of revolutions.

Few newbies are able to do this the first few times.

If it is out even a hair can it make the differance between starting at -30c and not starting at 0c.

Besides timing...anyone doing any work on these engines needs vcds.

maxmoo said:

I am not disagreeing with you.

Often when I set the static timing very carefully......no further adjustment is needed with vcds but I am anal about getting it perfect and rechecking and correcting after rotating the engine by hand a couple of revolutions.

Few newbies are able to do this the first few times.

If it is out even a hair can it make the differance between starting at -30c and not starting at 0c.

Besides timing...anyone doing any work on these engines needs vcds.

Click to expand...

Ok, I don't think you're being anal at all, that is the correct (and only) way to set the static timing. Newbie or not, being able to follow the instructions is all it takes to make a successful timing setting. Accuracy is key.

The OP said he is working on diesel engines so I assume that he will be able to follow instructions for checking and setting the static timing.

Farmboy, did you ever figure out how to read the timing with your snap on scanner?