Shop filled my "507-required" Jetta with 505 -what to do?

AGinOntario · Jan 14, 2017

Hi all - I KNOW there are a million threads with variations of this question, but I couldn't find this specific issue, hence the new thread -sorry.
I'm a TDI noob -we just bought the car used a couple of months ago:
2011 Jetta TDI -2.0, 6 spd manual, 108000 km - no mods that I know of.
I'm not exactly sure of the previous oil change interval, or the type of oil used, so I wanted to start anew and keep proper track.
I booked the appointment with a new shop (a European auto specialist) that I tried out based on local reviews here in Hamilton, Ontario. When I booked, I wrote on the form that I wanted the oil changed to a synthetic oil that meets VW's 507 standard.
What I got was a fill with Castrol Edge 5W-40, so I complained to the owner.
He replied with the line about "this oil meets or exceeds all German auto manufacturers standards" etc. etc.
I said "no, Castrol DOES make an oil that specifically states that it meets standard 507, but it's not this one..." - (if sticking with Castrol, it apparently should be the Edge Professional LL03 5W-30)
The owner is being cooperative and even offered a refund (I also had it flushed based on their recommendation, as it appeared dirty and foamy and, as I said, I don't have reliable previous maintenance records.)
He mentioned as a side note that his own vehicle is a 2010 Jetta TDI that he's used the Edge 5W-40 on since new withno issues at all.
Here's the bottom line question:
I know the 507 standard is very specifically required - is the 505 5W-40 stuff that was put in that much of an issue that I should pursue the refund, or demand a change to the 507 standard oil, or is it "not that big of a deal"?
Thanks for the help!
Allan

turbobrick240 · Jan 14, 2017

For one interval it really is no big deal. Your old oil appeared dirty and foamy? It will always be black when drained. The foamy part doesn't sound good though.

JSWTDI09 · Jan 14, 2017

AGinOntario said:
I know the 507 standard is very specifically required - is the 505 5W-40 stuff that was put in that much of an issue that I should pursue the refund, or demand a change to the 507 standard oil, or is it "not that big of a deal"?
Thanks for the help!
Allan

VW507 oil is what is called a Low SAPS (sulfated ash, phosphorus, and sulfur) oil. this is to protect the emissions system. Assuming you car still has an intact emissions system (DPF,etc.) you probably should change your oil again. Running a non low SAPS oil will do no serious harm for a short time (especially if your car does not burn oil), but over the long haul it could shorten the life of some emissions system components. IMHO, making them replace your oil with the correct oil might make them learn an important fact about modern Diesel engines. Good mechanics try not to make the same stupid mistake twice.

Have Fun!

Don

turbobrick240 · Jan 14, 2017

Yeah, certainly wouldn't hurt to have the specified oil. Another change will also remove most of the residual solvent from whatever their flush treatment was.

tdiatlast · Jan 14, 2017

...skeptical of the "flush treatment", except of course of your wallet! Probably no harm done, but I agree with turbobrick240: think of the 505 (wrong) oil as a good thing to remove any/all of the "flush treatment".
Great mechanics don't make stupid "incorrect oil" mistakes in the first place. Lesson learned: ask them to replace it.

pdq import repair · Jan 14, 2017

Flushes are usually unnecessary. Isn't that really what the oil change is supposed to accomplish?

They were invented as an easy sell money tree in my opinion. I call them "wallet flushes" as that is what they do best.

If you value your DPF have it redone with the right oil and maybe they will learn to look.

TDIMeister · Jan 14, 2017

If the shop is offering to drain the 505 and replace with correct 507, accept and move on with regular interval. It is complete nonsense to drain over and over again to remove all trace of 505. The difference in SAPS between 507 and 505 is ~0.7% vs 1.0-1.2%. We're not talking about ppm traces of SAPS will destroy the emissions equipment in short order. Such a difference of magnitudes, and the few km driven on 505, will have absolutely no discernable effect on the aftertreatment system after all things are considered.

tdiatlast · Jan 14, 2017

TDIMeister said:
If the shop is offering to drain the 505 and replace with correct 507, accept and move on with regular interval. It is complete nonsense to drain over and over again to remove all trace of 505. The difference in SAPS between 507 and 505 is ~0.7% vs 1.0-1.2%. We're not talking about ppm traces of SAPS will destroy the emissions equipment in short order. Such a difference of magnitudes, and the few km driven on 505, will have absolutely no discernable effect on the aftertreatment system after all things are considered.

I don't believe anyone said anything of the sort. Agreed: remove the 505, consider that IT removed any traces of whatever "flush treatment" that was used.

naturist · Jan 15, 2017

It must surely be noted that a lot of people put a lot of off-spec oil in their cars and consider the "experiment" a success because the vehicle didn't immediately explode in flames. In most cases, you can get away with "the wrong oil" for a thousand miles or so. After that, the odds start piling up for long term damage. (BTW, one of the vehicles for which you CAN'T get away with that would the the 2004-2006 PD TDIs. VW says, and posts on a sticker in the engine compartment, that ANY amount of non-505.01 compliant oil for ANY mileage whatever WILL result in terminal engine damage. The extent to which this is true can be debated.

scooperhsd · Jan 16, 2017

2 answers - depending

#1 - you still have your pollution gear and want it to keep working - drain the 505 and put in the 507 ASAP. Flushes not necessary.

#2 -you have deleted or don't care about your pollution equipment - drive on until your next oil change.

Kevinski4 · Jan 16, 2017

scooperhsd said:
2 answers - depending

#1 - you still have your pollution gear and want it to keep working - drain the 505 and put in the 507 ASAP. Flushes not necessary.

#2 -you have deleted or don't care about your pollution equipment - drive on until your next oil change.

You forgot #3, which is drive it 10k miles until your next oil change and not care one single bit because its 0.8% ash just like every other 507 spec oil. Not like the extra 0.2% ash of a standard API spec oil that's meant for DPF equipped vehicles is going to hurt anything anyway...

http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/F...8A68F2580257E2D004F5207/$File/BPXE-9VX5VU.pdf

"EDGE Turbo Diesel 5W-40 is also approved by other leading car manufacturers for use in their vehicles including those fitted with a DPF"

Good news! The sky is not falling!

AGinOntario · Jan 16, 2017

Well, it's been booked for this Saturday morning to drain the 505 and refill with 507 spec oil.
Thanks for the input, folks. I intend to stick with the 507 spec and 15,000 km changes from here on in.

narongc73 · Jan 17, 2017

AGinOntario said:
Well, it's been booked for this Saturday morning to drain the 505 and refill with 507 spec oil.
Thanks for the input, folks. I intend to stick with the 507 spec and 15,000 km changes from here on in.

Bring them the oil next time. No way they can mess that up. You really should change it yourself. Minimal tools needed.

tdiatlast · Jan 17, 2017

^^^except when it's 0f outside...
Not everyone has access to garage space...

meangreen · Jan 17, 2017

AGinOntario;5221887 Thanks for the input said:
Well if are going to drive 15k on your oil than why are flushing it. If you want to ruin your engine than you are doing a good job with your 15k oil change intervals..

tdiatlast · Jan 17, 2017

meangreen said:
Well if are going to drive 15k on your oil than why are flushing it. If you want to ruin your engine than you are doing a good job with your 15k oil change intervals..

Totally "old school" argument. Numerous UOAs have established the new reality of 10k (miles) oil changes, gas and diesel.

There's absolutely no reason to change the oil prior to 15k (k).

AGinOntario · Jan 17, 2017

meangreen said:
Well if are going to drive 15k on your oil than why are flushing it. If you want to ruin your engine than you are doing a good job with your 15k oil change intervals..

Don't really need the sarcasm, Mr. mean, but I'll get over it.
In any case, you're right - I shouldn't be driving 15000 km on an oil change - my owners manual actually specifies 16093.44 km (10000 miles).
Thanks for setting me straight!

meangreen · Jan 18, 2017

I guess it was a bit sarcastic but I meant it. 10000 km max on North American diesel.. listen we have bad diesel in North America and the cetain is not like it is in Europe so there is so much more blow by in the engine. In europe they even have 24000 km engine oil as the have more cetain in there diesel so the fuel burns better and less contamination in the oil. I would not drive more the 10000 km on any synthetic oil (diesel or gasoline) do not follow what the owners manuel says

oh im not Mr mean my car is

tdiatlast · Jan 18, 2017

Mr. Not-Mean meangreen,
Thanks for not being mean.
However, I'll hammer away again. Your logic is old school.
UOA's of TODAY'S engines, using today's modern full-synthetic oils, burning Amuhrican diesel (with adequate cetane, in the 43-46 range, based on current research) prove that 10k miles per oil-change is perfectly acceptable. In fact, there's evidence that more frequent oil changes is more harmful to the engine, as the oil is engineered with a timeline that accounts for 10k changes.

You can do what you like with your car, but your advice to others is...ill-advised.

...and I'm not mean, either!

meangreen · Jan 18, 2017

Tdiatlast not sure if you read my last post correctly but that is what I sayed. Mr Ontario wanted to do 15k oil changes. And I nicely suggested to do 10k oil hanges
I dont know how many km you drive on your changes, drive 24k I dont care.i just mentioned to him that 15k is to much

tdiatlast · Jan 18, 2017

I believe you're saying 10000 kilometers, right?

I'm saying 10000 MILES...which equals 16000 kilometers.

I continue to drive in excess of 10k MILES (16k kilometers), and have been since my first VW in 1983...always full synthetic. Never an oil related problem, never burned more than 1/2 quart between changese, always over 160k MILES on engines when I sold them.

Victor Huge · Jan 18, 2017

Meangreen, where are you getting your info that 15k km is too much? All the studies prove you wrong, why are you perpetuating this bad suggestion?

meangreen · Jan 18, 2017

Well I guess you all know better and I sure hope the best . Do your oil changes as you like as I guess I dont know anything. For the last 26 years I've been a mechanic and have repaired engines like yours do to lack of oil changes. But some people just wont learn Victor. Do your changes as you like and dont worry what I sayed.

Victor Huge · Jan 19, 2017

I'm not trying to be rude but the manufacturer says 15 thousand km is fine and the used oil analysis says it's fine so where are you getting this information? Give us something to go on if you want to convince us. People would like to know but you are refusing to provide any proof any time we ask. Your 26 years of experience doesn't mean you can't be wrong.

Also, what does fuel quality have to do with blow-by?

pdq import repair · Jan 19, 2017

Diesel engines are a bit more forgiving on oil change intervals. I live this argument nearly daily with people concerned about their cars. On gas cars with synthetic oil I recommend 5000 mile intervals for normal driving, can be extended some for highway only. This is not a commuter region so most people drive 5-10 minutes in town to work.
Gas cars are prone to sludge buildup, some cars much worse than others, and that is the main reason for oil changes, the oil doesn't really break down so much as get loaded up. Even at that they will go 150K miles with very little trouble. I pulled a valve cover off a Toyota 3.0 once and you could barely see the inner working there was so much sludge. It was in for a valve cover gasket and we recommended a valve adjustment at that time too. We had to chip away the sludge with a wet/dry vac running to pick up the pieces so we could even get at the valve shims.
I don't buy new cars, I usually end up with a car that has suffered terrible trauma and the owner doesn't want to spend the money to fix it, so I buy it, fix it, drive it. I get pretty good longevity out of them once repaired. I have a 4runner with 280K on it, an Audi S6 with 290K, and my most recent car is a 09 Jetta TDI with only 150K on it. I bought it at 130K with a seized engine and blown turbo. The owner said that his grandson was using it at the time and when questioned about oil changes, he had no answer. He couldn't even say when last checked oil. I suspect the turbo died first and started using oil and he ignored the smoke and continued driving till the oil was gone.
I fixed it and have been enjoying it ever since, happily changing my oil at 5K intervals. I figure it is better to err on the safe side. Oil is cheap, engines are not.

JSWTDI09 · Jan 19, 2017

pdq import repair said:
...and my most recent car is a 09 Jetta TDI with only 150K on it. I bought it at 130K with a seized engine and blown turbo. The owner said that his grandson was using it at the time and when questioned about oil changes, he had no answer. He couldn't even say when last checked oil. I suspect the turbo died first and started using oil and he ignored the smoke and continued driving till the oil was gone.
I fixed it and have been enjoying it ever since, happily changing my oil at 5K intervals. I figure it is better to err on the safe side. Oil is cheap, engines are not.

Since it is a 2009, I actually suspect that the Hex shaft from the balance shaft assembly that drives the oil pump rounded out first. In other words, the oil pump stopped pumping first - then the turbo failed, then the engine seized. This is a more common failure mode in CBEA engines.

Have Fun!

Don

P.S. If you haven't already read it, you guys might want to read this post about oil change intervals. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2340534&postcount=27

pdq import repair · Jan 19, 2017

No, it is running with the original oil pump balance assembly. I got the engine to break free and put in bearings as needed and left the rest, it had good compression and the crank looked great.. I think the oil went away with the turbo. I am very aware now of the "shaft " problem and have one on hand for my next oil change. I will pop the pan and throw it in there.
This particular car had been dumping oil in the exhaust for quite a while. It was apparent by oil either dripping out of exhaust joints, or more amazingly seeping out of the muffler crimp. Smoked a lot at first run and took quite a while for the DPF to be happy, but it seemed to recover for the most part except for the soot from cracking, which I think is a normal situation not caused by the oil. It's regen and ash load numbers are normal.

Shop filled my "507-required" Jetta with 505 -what to do?

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