compu_85
Gadget Guy
What's the average oil pressure at hot idle for a TDI?
-J
-J
Improving Oil Galley Piston Cooling
- Thread starter Franko6
- Start date
PGM jetta
Veteran Member
12-15 psi on my BEW with 5w-40
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
FUB States:
..."4) The bolt is the dominant restriction in the squirter assembly which leads to #5
5) Increasing the squirter size from 0.076" to 0.096" only increases the net area of the two orifices in series (bolt + squirter) by ~10% which changes the differential pressure at 1 LPM from ~1.7 to ~1.4 bar (24.6 to 20.3 psi) Of course that oil pressure drop will also be seen by all the other passages in the engine so their oil consumption will be reduced so the actual drop for the squirter will be less than that. Solving for this is very difficult since there's about 100 orifices in parallel and they're all interdependent on each other.
After reading from FUB that the oil squirt bolt was the restriction, I remeasured the orifice of an oil squirt bolt and actually found there are two different types for the engines starting with the AHU's and everything forward from there. I do not know what the split year is, but I assume the early oil squirt bolts have what I measure as a .076" orifice to the check ball, but the later once have a .120" orifice. Here are pics...
The bottom set are the smaller orifice bolts.
Also, notice the inlet holes for the older (left) squirt are smaller than the larger orifice bolt on the right.
Tops of the bolts look different. Again, smaller orifice bolts are on the left and have a ring groove on top of the bolt...
Last two pics, show large orifice bolt with "WAG, 8.8 imprint. Smaller just has ring.
Anyone with the smaller orifice check ball will be able to visually inspect their oil squirts and tell if they have the smaller or larger oil squirts. Depending on opinion, my feeling is that VW usually has a good reason for updating things like oil squirts.
All the data for the larger oil squirt will have to be re-evaluated. I am sure the volume will now change, as 1) there is definitely no restriction in the larger bolt for oil flow going through a .096 oil squirt orifice hole and 2) The orifice and spring pressure will have to be retested for the larger check ball and spring.
There is more I need to bring up about the Volume/ Pressure of the oil pump, as I think some of that information is confusing. The pump may be a 'set volume pump', but under low-speed situations, the pressure will dramatically drop. Any oil pressure loss due to loose journals, worn bushings or any of the pressure relief orifices weak or sticking will affect low speed oil pump pressure and volume rather dramatically
..."4) The bolt is the dominant restriction in the squirter assembly which leads to #5
5) Increasing the squirter size from 0.076" to 0.096" only increases the net area of the two orifices in series (bolt + squirter) by ~10% which changes the differential pressure at 1 LPM from ~1.7 to ~1.4 bar (24.6 to 20.3 psi) Of course that oil pressure drop will also be seen by all the other passages in the engine so their oil consumption will be reduced so the actual drop for the squirter will be less than that. Solving for this is very difficult since there's about 100 orifices in parallel and they're all interdependent on each other.
After reading from FUB that the oil squirt bolt was the restriction, I remeasured the orifice of an oil squirt bolt and actually found there are two different types for the engines starting with the AHU's and everything forward from there. I do not know what the split year is, but I assume the early oil squirt bolts have what I measure as a .076" orifice to the check ball, but the later once have a .120" orifice. Here are pics...
The bottom set are the smaller orifice bolts.
Also, notice the inlet holes for the older (left) squirt are smaller than the larger orifice bolt on the right.
Tops of the bolts look different. Again, smaller orifice bolts are on the left and have a ring groove on top of the bolt...
Last two pics, show large orifice bolt with "WAG, 8.8 imprint. Smaller just has ring.
Anyone with the smaller orifice check ball will be able to visually inspect their oil squirts and tell if they have the smaller or larger oil squirts. Depending on opinion, my feeling is that VW usually has a good reason for updating things like oil squirts.
All the data for the larger oil squirt will have to be re-evaluated. I am sure the volume will now change, as 1) there is definitely no restriction in the larger bolt for oil flow going through a .096 oil squirt orifice hole and 2) The orifice and spring pressure will have to be retested for the larger check ball and spring.
There is more I need to bring up about the Volume/ Pressure of the oil pump, as I think some of that information is confusing. The pump may be a 'set volume pump', but under low-speed situations, the pressure will dramatically drop. Any oil pressure loss due to loose journals, worn bushings or any of the pressure relief orifices weak or sticking will affect low speed oil pump pressure and volume rather dramatically
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turbovan+tdi
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Location
- Abbotsford, BC.
- TDI
- 2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Not sure if this was brought up but the ALH and BEW use the same oil pump. As with above, they obviously did there calculations that the pump puts out enough at low rpm as they are a fixed pump. The only way to increase output is rpm.
but they also limit low end torque a whole lot in their software
turbovan+tdi
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Location
- Abbotsford, BC.
- TDI
- 2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
How would that affect rpm? If the engine is at 1500 rpm, the oil pump output is fixed barring something plugging up or a bearing going out. Pressure will change due to oil viscosity as it gets warmer and clearances getting loser.
not rpm, but bearing load, piston bowl temperature, etc
all go up when bringing the engine from box-stock config
"they deemed the oil flow sufficient" ...for a 90hp turd with next to no bottom end
look at the tq limit maps and see that they hit zero at 500 RPM, 20 mg/str at 501 rpm, mine allow full fuel down there and it improves drivability quite a lot starting from a rest, but the bearings are getting an awful harsh loading with very low oil pressure/volume
same with piston bowl temps, they can get very hot at low revs with no oil flow and tweaked fueling. Stock programming makes it impossible to hurt the engine with the throttle, but tweak it and you can easily melt pistons with all stock hardware by lugging the engine around
Well
Just to show an example,a few weeks ago I opened an AFN engine which had digested a bolt through the turbo...
This engine was built by a friend back in 1999 and has had a myriad of turbo,injector combos
Engine had 255chp on last dyno and has been more or less daily abused since 1999
When I opened the engine I saw that it had transporter t4 Pistons with no cooling gallery.
Because in 1999 there was no PD Pistons available
Furthermore I noticed that the oil jets were removed...,,.,
T4 Pistons has oil jet notches on other side so my friends solution was to remove the jets and plug the holes he he
Anyway,Pistons had no wear or other heat related issues
Just to show an example,a few weeks ago I opened an AFN engine which had digested a bolt through the turbo...
This engine was built by a friend back in 1999 and has had a myriad of turbo,injector combos
Engine had 255chp on last dyno and has been more or less daily abused since 1999
When I opened the engine I saw that it had transporter t4 Pistons with no cooling gallery.
Because in 1999 there was no PD Pistons available
Furthermore I noticed that the oil jets were removed...,,.,
T4 Pistons has oil jet notches on other side so my friends solution was to remove the jets and plug the holes he he
Anyway,Pistons had no wear or other heat related issues
Fix_Until_Broke
Top Post Dawg
The bolts I tested have a 2.97mm center hole and 2) 1.88mm cross holes
The squirters I tested have a nozzle inside diameter of 1.95mm (0.077")
The drilled holes in the bolt are not the primary restriction, the spring and check ball are. If the cracking pressure is the same between the two bolts, I don't think there will be a significant difference between the two. If you want to send me a couple of the other bolts, I can run a similar test with them and see if there are any differences.
On another topic, I have roughly doubled my oil pressure at 1650 (cruising at 60 MPH) from 20 psi up to 40 psi at ~175F oil temperature. This was due to the smaller oil pump gear. I also have an extra oil leak from the 2nd turbo that is consuming more oil as well.
Regarding the oil pump - it is fixed displacement, just like the engine itself. The faster you spin it, the more oil it will move. Oil pressure will change significantly with all kinds of variables, however the oil flow rate will be the same at the same engine RPM regardless of the variables. Where that oil goes changes, but the pump flows the same.
The squirters I tested have a nozzle inside diameter of 1.95mm (0.077")
The drilled holes in the bolt are not the primary restriction, the spring and check ball are. If the cracking pressure is the same between the two bolts, I don't think there will be a significant difference between the two. If you want to send me a couple of the other bolts, I can run a similar test with them and see if there are any differences.
On another topic, I have roughly doubled my oil pressure at 1650 (cruising at 60 MPH) from 20 psi up to 40 psi at ~175F oil temperature. This was due to the smaller oil pump gear. I also have an extra oil leak from the 2nd turbo that is consuming more oil as well.
Regarding the oil pump - it is fixed displacement, just like the engine itself. The faster you spin it, the more oil it will move. Oil pressure will change significantly with all kinds of variables, however the oil flow rate will be the same at the same engine RPM regardless of the variables. Where that oil goes changes, but the pump flows the same.
turbovan+tdi
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Location
- Abbotsford, BC.
- TDI
- 2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Good info.
TDIsyncro
Veteran Member
agreed. I removed my check ball and springs (also larger drilled holes) but you can only do this with high volume pump. Without the bigger pump gallery pressure will be too low for rotating assembly. Very nice work on all the testing btw.
Geir has an interesting point, the extra oil flow is possibly overkill for most situations.
purediesel
Veteran Member
First off great read and thanks for all the info. Second thanks for the good info on these T4 pistons! I just acquired a full set with a few other goodies for a price I couldn't pass up. Great to know that they'll hold of to daily abuse!
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
A single engine is not what I would call 'solid data'. I expect this is an engine from The frozen reaches of the Scandian Countries and can get by without extra cooling. However, I doubt if extra cooling to the pistons would be detrimental in this same engine, had it been so modified.
We understand too much cooling can be a bad thing. As example, we have reports of engines from Canada that had too big a FMIC, causing frozen intakes in the winter. An AAZ engine we worked with could not run with Synthetic oil, because it was run as a stationary generator, running at a constant 1850rpm. The engine would never warm the oil up enough. So, we went with a synthetic blend to reduce sludge in the engine. Many people use blocking for the radiator in low temperature conditions. Too much cooling can be a problem, but I doubt piston cooling would ever have a negative effect.
Of the heat damaged engines we have seen, include melted and cracked pistons, scored cylinders, overheating oil, warped cylinder heads etc, lead us to disagree with a point of view that oil cooled pistons are an unnecessary item. We agree, an engine that never sees 20c (70f) can get away with less cooling. But an engine that runs in ambient temperatures of 40c (102f) has different requirements than an engine that might operate bellow -10c (12f). Just as with our PD motors, we see much better cam life-expectancy from engines in Canada than we do from Florida. So, you Norsemen could likely provide less heat exchange and not be adversely affected by it.
When we install T-4 Crafter pistons in our ALH, AHU BEW, BRM or BHW engines (or their variants) we redrill the piston and cut a new 'doghouse door' for the oil squirt. The major advantage for use of those pistons is the 16.8CR drop, which is a dramatic benefit with highly modified engines. We stock sets of Crafters which include the oiling mods and recommend including our diesel performance rings.
We understand too much cooling can be a bad thing. As example, we have reports of engines from Canada that had too big a FMIC, causing frozen intakes in the winter. An AAZ engine we worked with could not run with Synthetic oil, because it was run as a stationary generator, running at a constant 1850rpm. The engine would never warm the oil up enough. So, we went with a synthetic blend to reduce sludge in the engine. Many people use blocking for the radiator in low temperature conditions. Too much cooling can be a problem, but I doubt piston cooling would ever have a negative effect.
Of the heat damaged engines we have seen, include melted and cracked pistons, scored cylinders, overheating oil, warped cylinder heads etc, lead us to disagree with a point of view that oil cooled pistons are an unnecessary item. We agree, an engine that never sees 20c (70f) can get away with less cooling. But an engine that runs in ambient temperatures of 40c (102f) has different requirements than an engine that might operate bellow -10c (12f). Just as with our PD motors, we see much better cam life-expectancy from engines in Canada than we do from Florida. So, you Norsemen could likely provide less heat exchange and not be adversely affected by it.
When we install T-4 Crafter pistons in our ALH, AHU BEW, BRM or BHW engines (or their variants) we redrill the piston and cut a new 'doghouse door' for the oil squirt. The major advantage for use of those pistons is the 16.8CR drop, which is a dramatic benefit with highly modified engines. We stock sets of Crafters which include the oiling mods and recommend including our diesel performance rings.
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Frank,i never said oil cooled pistons is a bad thing
Its a single engine yes,but remember it has been running like this for 17 years without any issues
Most of the time with more than double the power output of a standard 110hp AFN
Climate here is cold ofcourse,but there are also summer with temps around 35deg celsius
+ it has been on German Autobahn for many times,which have looooong straights with full throttle,much more abuse than it will ever see on a highway in the US for sure
There are literally millions of engines with much more power than our tiny diesels running without oil squirters
So i assume there is more than "just a single example" out there
But by all means,i get your point
Whats the meaning of installing oil cooled pistons if the oil stream doesnt hit inside the oil channel,i fully agree on that
Its a single engine yes,but remember it has been running like this for 17 years without any issues
Most of the time with more than double the power output of a standard 110hp AFN
Climate here is cold ofcourse,but there are also summer with temps around 35deg celsius
+ it has been on German Autobahn for many times,which have looooong straights with full throttle,much more abuse than it will ever see on a highway in the US for sure
There are literally millions of engines with much more power than our tiny diesels running without oil squirters
So i assume there is more than "just a single example" out there
But by all means,i get your point
Whats the meaning of installing oil cooled pistons if the oil stream doesnt hit inside the oil channel,i fully agree on that
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
Geir,
We also understand long straightaways. We have distances of hundreds of miles that kind of speed can be maintained. There are roads on Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona and more that 'wide open' is regularly done, legally or not. Some places, you can see the 'officer of the law' from 20 miles away. Try Interstate 80 West... straight as a string and nothing to look at... keep the pedal down...for hours. You have to watch out for patrol planes.
I think it hits 35c around April here and stays above that for the next 6 months. 45c is not impossible. We also recommend the bigger oil coolers. I think we need them. I'd rather run oil temps below 275f.
In any case, since the oil cooling pistons are available, and since all of the VW (and I am sure others like Porsche, Audi, Volvo, Mercedes who seem to build in lock-step) have them since no later than 2004, I will follow the lead. The harder you push, the more likely the piston melts.
Btw: To complete the question of orifices, I have found two VAG numbers for the check ball and oil spray jet:
The smaller is: 028 103 157A
The larger is: 038 103 157B
There is another 045 103 157C, but I do not think it is larger yet. Haven't seen it to be sure of any difference.
Since there is an opinion that the stock builds wouldn't need additional oil flow, then the smaller oil squirts with the ring might actually be overkill just the way they are. The further past the design limit, the more important every little tweak becomes. We will install the larger oil spray jets for any future builds and include the BRM sprocket/ Tensioner/ Chain upgrade.
We also understand long straightaways. We have distances of hundreds of miles that kind of speed can be maintained. There are roads on Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona and more that 'wide open' is regularly done, legally or not. Some places, you can see the 'officer of the law' from 20 miles away. Try Interstate 80 West... straight as a string and nothing to look at... keep the pedal down...for hours. You have to watch out for patrol planes.
I think it hits 35c around April here and stays above that for the next 6 months. 45c is not impossible. We also recommend the bigger oil coolers. I think we need them. I'd rather run oil temps below 275f.
In any case, since the oil cooling pistons are available, and since all of the VW (and I am sure others like Porsche, Audi, Volvo, Mercedes who seem to build in lock-step) have them since no later than 2004, I will follow the lead. The harder you push, the more likely the piston melts.
Btw: To complete the question of orifices, I have found two VAG numbers for the check ball and oil spray jet:
The smaller is: 028 103 157A
The larger is: 038 103 157B
There is another 045 103 157C, but I do not think it is larger yet. Haven't seen it to be sure of any difference.
Since there is an opinion that the stock builds wouldn't need additional oil flow, then the smaller oil squirts with the ring might actually be overkill just the way they are. The further past the design limit, the more important every little tweak becomes. We will install the larger oil spray jets for any future builds and include the BRM sprocket/ Tensioner/ Chain upgrade.
rotaecho
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 29, 2015
- Location
- Phoenix
- TDI
- mTDI AHU in an 82 Vanagon Diesel & 86' 1.6na Golf (destined TDI)
I'm building an AHU mTDI (LT 2.8 12mm IP) and throwing it into a Westfalia. I currently have a mTDI I built similar, but I got a HG leak (250k on the engine that I've done), so building a second better / improved engine and swapping them out and throwing the existing into another project once fixed.
I'm getting standard sized ASV piston with the oil galleys, and redirecting the oil-squirters was a thought that lead me to this discussion.
Much of this discussion is directed towards the ALH, so pardon my older AHU questions.
The AHU from what I read below is Frank determined earlier models have an orifice of 0.076" where the newer squirters are 0.120" in an ALH.
My question is (and sorry I searched best I could) is, because the oil pump design differs (mechanism) between the AHU and ALH, do they have the same oil flow per their pumps?
If so, then upgrading my AHU's oil-squirters to the later (0.120") type could be a real improvement when directed; and funnel created in the piston--even though the photos weren't the clearest to me on that. Maybe when my ASV pistons are here it'd make more sense.
However, if the oil-pump flow is less on the AHU vs the ALH, then this could be potentially bad going to the larger squirters.
I know what Frank said about the size difference didn't impact the jet of oil from it being such a short distance. However, that assumption I think implied only ALH, and possibly not the AHU.
Just looking for some input from others more experiened.
Thanks!
I'm getting standard sized ASV piston with the oil galleys, and redirecting the oil-squirters was a thought that lead me to this discussion.
Much of this discussion is directed towards the ALH, so pardon my older AHU questions.
The AHU from what I read below is Frank determined earlier models have an orifice of 0.076" where the newer squirters are 0.120" in an ALH.
My question is (and sorry I searched best I could) is, because the oil pump design differs (mechanism) between the AHU and ALH, do they have the same oil flow per their pumps?
If so, then upgrading my AHU's oil-squirters to the later (0.120") type could be a real improvement when directed; and funnel created in the piston--even though the photos weren't the clearest to me on that. Maybe when my ASV pistons are here it'd make more sense.
However, if the oil-pump flow is less on the AHU vs the ALH, then this could be potentially bad going to the larger squirters.
I know what Frank said about the size difference didn't impact the jet of oil from it being such a short distance. However, that assumption I think implied only ALH, and possibly not the AHU.
Just looking for some input from others more experiened.
Thanks!
FUB States:
..."4) The bolt is the dominant restriction in the squirter assembly which leads to #5
5) Increasing the squirter size from 0.076" to 0.096" only increases the net area of the two orifices in series (bolt + squirter) by ~10% which changes the differential pressure at 1 LPM from ~1.7 to ~1.4 bar (24.6 to 20.3 psi) Of course that oil pressure drop will also be seen by all the other passages in the engine so their oil consumption will be reduced so the actual drop for the squirter will be less than that. Solving for this is very difficult since there's about 100 orifices in parallel and they're all interdependent on each other.
After reading from FUB that the oil squirt bolt was the restriction, I remeasured the orifice of an oil squirt bolt and actually found there are two different types for the engines starting with the AHU's and everything forward from there. I do not know what the split year is, but I assume the early oil squirt bolts have what I measure as a .076" orifice to the check ball, but the later once have a .120" orifice. Here are pics...
The bottom set are the smaller orifice bolts.
Also, notice the inlet holes for the older (left) squirt are smaller than the larger orifice bolt on the right.
Tops of the bolts look different. Again, smaller orifice bolts are on the left and have a ring groove on top of the bolt...
Last two pics, show large orifice bolt with "WAG, 8.8 imprint. Smaller just has ring.
Anyone with the smaller orifice check ball will be able to visually inspect their oil squirts and tell if they have the smaller or larger oil squirts. Depending on opinion, my feeling is that VW usually has a good reason for updating things like oil squirts.
All the data for the larger oil squirt will have to be re-evaluated. I am sure the volume will now change, as 1) there is definitely no restriction in the larger bolt for oil flow going through a .096 oil squirt orifice hole and 2) The orifice and spring pressure will have to be retested for the larger check ball and spring.
There is more I need to bring up about the Volume/ Pressure of the oil pump, as I think some of that information is confusing. The pump may be a 'set volume pump', but under low-speed situations, the pressure will dramatically drop. Any oil pressure loss due to loose journals, worn bushings or any of the pressure relief orifices weak or sticking will affect low speed oil pump pressure and volume rather dramatically
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
First, the ASV pistons:
There are 2 reasons I do not use them. 1. The wrist pin to piston crown is .008” shorter. 2. It’s not a beveled wrist pin design.
The reason I don’t like the loss in piston height is that requires you to surface the block, up to .010” to get proper piston protrusion for a 1-hole head gasket (hg).
The keystone wrist pin design has more support at the top of the wrist pin. I decided a long time ago, especially when building 160 hp or more, it’s going to be the improvement of the beveled design. I don’t build a conventional H-beam Rod, for that specific reason. I don’t see the purpose. If you look at another way, the ASV piston is something of a unicorn, as it is the only galley cooled piston I know that has straight wrist pin design for the VW/Audi.
I have always described the TDI as a very ‘incremental’ engine. It’s not always large changes, but tweaks, moving always to improve.
I hear the comment what is not ‘needed’. No oil squirts, no h-beam beveled rods, no galley-cooled pistons… maybe the same people wouldn’t install the main bearings; 6 slotted, 4 solid. To that I offer this challenge:
What is VAG doing? Wasting their time in team racing, improving engines whose engineering goes from the track to the daily driver? I see the reasons and apply the benefit.
No fuel cooler? Maybe in Sweden you need a fuel HEATER,
No 6/4 main bearing set? Maybe you never stuck a #3 rod through the block, 75 mph, 90f day on a 3-4% grade for 20 miles. “It was running perfectly!”, until the rod journal overheated. That can’t be done many places in Europe, but it just happened again for a customer in November.
Maybe you never melted out a piston combustion chamber. Galley-cooling helps and most of those pistons are from 2004 and later models.
That’s enough for now..
There are 2 reasons I do not use them. 1. The wrist pin to piston crown is .008” shorter. 2. It’s not a beveled wrist pin design.
The reason I don’t like the loss in piston height is that requires you to surface the block, up to .010” to get proper piston protrusion for a 1-hole head gasket (hg).
The keystone wrist pin design has more support at the top of the wrist pin. I decided a long time ago, especially when building 160 hp or more, it’s going to be the improvement of the beveled design. I don’t build a conventional H-beam Rod, for that specific reason. I don’t see the purpose. If you look at another way, the ASV piston is something of a unicorn, as it is the only galley cooled piston I know that has straight wrist pin design for the VW/Audi.
I have always described the TDI as a very ‘incremental’ engine. It’s not always large changes, but tweaks, moving always to improve.
I hear the comment what is not ‘needed’. No oil squirts, no h-beam beveled rods, no galley-cooled pistons… maybe the same people wouldn’t install the main bearings; 6 slotted, 4 solid. To that I offer this challenge:
What is VAG doing? Wasting their time in team racing, improving engines whose engineering goes from the track to the daily driver? I see the reasons and apply the benefit.
No fuel cooler? Maybe in Sweden you need a fuel HEATER,
No 6/4 main bearing set? Maybe you never stuck a #3 rod through the block, 75 mph, 90f day on a 3-4% grade for 20 miles. “It was running perfectly!”, until the rod journal overheated. That can’t be done many places in Europe, but it just happened again for a customer in November.
Maybe you never melted out a piston combustion chamber. Galley-cooling helps and most of those pistons are from 2004 and later models.
That’s enough for now..
PakProtector
Veteran Member
For these improved builds, any call for the PD130/150's 51mm rod journals? As in, use ARL/ASZ cranks and get rods( also improved over ALH/BEW ) to match? Seems a useful mod I lump together with the rest of the incrementals VAG applied to the higher output 1.9's.
Douglas
Douglas
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
The journals on the crank are 53.7mm for the big rods. For example, I have used the BHW crank with a ALH crank sensor and BHW 81mm pistons to overbuild an ALH block, 'BulletProof'. The rod bearings are all 'tangless' for the 2.0 liter engines, but they are all sputtered, have more surface area and I really like the sputtering. Just remember to put the shiney bearing which is usually marked 'sputter' into the connecting rod end. I've seen it done backwards. They are too expensive to put in wrong. I haven't ever gotten an ARL crank, but I believe there are only the two sizes for rod journals in the TDI's; 50.6mm in the 1.9's and 53.7mm in the 2.0's.
There is a split in the piston design beginning in the PD's as far as I know, the 1.9 and 2.0 PD's began using the Keystone design rods. With that in mind, I designed the 50.6mm H-beam connecting rod with Molnar Technologies about 8 years ago, after giving up on the available market and it's abusers. For the 50.6 rods, I have rod bearings that are sputtered, with tangs. For the 2.0's, all of the bearings I know of are tangless. Not that it's a big deal, but I do like the convenience of tangs for bearing placement.
I made the decision to NOT build a square wrist pin design. First, the idea of the H-beams is for performance, which would at least indicate one of the later, galley cooled and keystoned pistons. However, if you think you have to use the older style piston, the Keystone design will fit the square wrist pin of the older pistons. That is not true the other way around. You cannot install a square wrist pin rod in a keystoned piston without modifying the rod. I have done that, but really don't think it's worth doing.
There is a split in the piston design beginning in the PD's as far as I know, the 1.9 and 2.0 PD's began using the Keystone design rods. With that in mind, I designed the 50.6mm H-beam connecting rod with Molnar Technologies about 8 years ago, after giving up on the available market and it's abusers. For the 50.6 rods, I have rod bearings that are sputtered, with tangs. For the 2.0's, all of the bearings I know of are tangless. Not that it's a big deal, but I do like the convenience of tangs for bearing placement.
I made the decision to NOT build a square wrist pin design. First, the idea of the H-beams is for performance, which would at least indicate one of the later, galley cooled and keystoned pistons. However, if you think you have to use the older style piston, the Keystone design will fit the square wrist pin of the older pistons. That is not true the other way around. You cannot install a square wrist pin rod in a keystoned piston without modifying the rod. I have done that, but really don't think it's worth doing.
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PakProtector
Veteran Member
Emmmmm...rod big end for the BHW/ARL/ASZ are 53.7mm. Their crank journals are 51mm *OD. ALH is 48mm, with the 50.6mm *ID rod big ends.
and yeah, I know...Doug with a bone
Douglas
and yeah, I know...Doug with a bone
Douglas
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
Are you sure?
The one thing that has been uniformly followed since the ALH/AHU/ AAZ/ 1Z engine are for the main bearings, it's the same thing. I'm really not too sure about the size difference, but there is an 06B 105 561 main bearing for the 2.0, but you could fool me about the difference. The BEW has a laundry list of bearings, based on 'Color Code'. Honestly, I gave up on that idea long time ago. The mains diameter is 54mm(2.1260"). The rods are still divided by 1.9 and 2.0. Rod's big end inner diameter(ID): 50.6 or 53.7. The BHW, ATD, ASZ and ARL are among those with the larger rod bearings, all tangless and I don't find much reason to discriminate between them. Once again, VW got a bit crazy with the division of rod bearings between 1/99-7/01 which I will continue to ignore. I just looked up the ARL rod bearings, which are 53.7mm. The ARL mains are once again, 54mm. Under the direction of my favorite site to look up bearings, they only show the 5 and 5 set, not the 6 and 4. I substitute the KS 77553600 for the 77555600 set. That has always been something of a mystery to me. There are a lot of bearing numbers, but not as many journal sizes. Perhaps I am missing something, but once again, you'd have to prove it to me. And what I really do like are sputtered rod bearings. They are worth the price.
Say what you want, the really important thing with every 4 cylinder engine and their mains is to get the proper set; 6 slotted and 4 solid bearing kit. That includes TSI, FSI, TDI... all those engines suffer the same oiling and heating issue, with the #3 rod, given a very particular condition, overheat, break and blow a hole in the block. The usual comment is, "What the **** happened? It was running PERFECTLY!" 3-4% long grade, warm day, 75mph. It just happened again to someone 2 months ago, JUST AFTER HE BOUGHT THE CAR! It's a known condition and the REASON companies like Glyco and Kolbenschmidt make the odd arrangement for the bearing set. NO, it is not a mistake. It is intentional. VW should know it also, but continue to build with an inferior bearing set.
The 'Extra' slotted bearing goes into the bottom cap of #4 main bearing. So, top and bottom bearings on #4 journal are slotted. That allows for 100%, 360 degree duty cycle for oiling the harder worked #3 rod. In my opinion, and because I tend to build with performance, the heating issue becomes even more important. The main bearing sets are foundational to my builds.
The one thing that has been uniformly followed since the ALH/AHU/ AAZ/ 1Z engine are for the main bearings, it's the same thing. I'm really not too sure about the size difference, but there is an 06B 105 561 main bearing for the 2.0, but you could fool me about the difference. The BEW has a laundry list of bearings, based on 'Color Code'. Honestly, I gave up on that idea long time ago. The mains diameter is 54mm(2.1260"). The rods are still divided by 1.9 and 2.0. Rod's big end inner diameter(ID): 50.6 or 53.7. The BHW, ATD, ASZ and ARL are among those with the larger rod bearings, all tangless and I don't find much reason to discriminate between them. Once again, VW got a bit crazy with the division of rod bearings between 1/99-7/01 which I will continue to ignore. I just looked up the ARL rod bearings, which are 53.7mm. The ARL mains are once again, 54mm. Under the direction of my favorite site to look up bearings, they only show the 5 and 5 set, not the 6 and 4. I substitute the KS 77553600 for the 77555600 set. That has always been something of a mystery to me. There are a lot of bearing numbers, but not as many journal sizes. Perhaps I am missing something, but once again, you'd have to prove it to me. And what I really do like are sputtered rod bearings. They are worth the price.
Say what you want, the really important thing with every 4 cylinder engine and their mains is to get the proper set; 6 slotted and 4 solid bearing kit. That includes TSI, FSI, TDI... all those engines suffer the same oiling and heating issue, with the #3 rod, given a very particular condition, overheat, break and blow a hole in the block. The usual comment is, "What the **** happened? It was running PERFECTLY!" 3-4% long grade, warm day, 75mph. It just happened again to someone 2 months ago, JUST AFTER HE BOUGHT THE CAR! It's a known condition and the REASON companies like Glyco and Kolbenschmidt make the odd arrangement for the bearing set. NO, it is not a mistake. It is intentional. VW should know it also, but continue to build with an inferior bearing set.
The 'Extra' slotted bearing goes into the bottom cap of #4 main bearing. So, top and bottom bearings on #4 journal are slotted. That allows for 100%, 360 degree duty cycle for oiling the harder worked #3 rod. In my opinion, and because I tend to build with performance, the heating issue becomes even more important. The main bearing sets are foundational to my builds.
PakProtector
Veteran Member
Yes indeed...
You note it quite properly; quoted-
The rods are still divided by 1.9 and 2.0. Rod's big end inner diameter(ID): 50.6 or 53.7. The BHW, ATD, ASZ and ARL are among those with the larger rod bearings, all tangless and I don't find much reason to discriminate between them.
And note I happen to differentiate them by crank journal size of 48mm for the US 1.9 and 51mm for the BHW and the Euro 1.9 of higher output.
Douglas
Last edited:
jmodge
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2015
- Location
- Greenville, MI
- TDI
- 2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
Frank, do you think the intake manifold configuration is the main contributor to that uneven load on number 3. Visually it seems the path of least resistance. If so, Has any custom manifold design turned out to be better?