Ester Oils available

tikal

Veteran Member
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Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Good point Bob.

Personal opinion: I think one of the VW oils that gave bad rep to all the rest of the TDI rated 5W-30 wight oils is the Castrol 505.01 oil that VW dealers put in the majority of PD cars in the USA.

Could have been this one with an HTHS of only 2.9?

Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W-30
http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/1AF34CADB7DD16FD80257CC4005AF188/$File/PDS%20-%20SLX%20Professional%20OE%205W-30%20100413.pdf
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
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Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
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2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Good point Bob.

Personal opinion: I think one of the VW oils that gave bad rep to all the rest of the TDI rated 5W-30 wight oils is the Castrol 505.01 oil that VW dealers put in the majority of PD cars in the USA.

Could have been this one with an HTHS of only 2.9?

Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W-30
http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/1AF34CADB7DD16FD80257CC4005AF188/$File/PDS%20-%20SLX%20Professional%20OE%205W-30%20100413.pdf
By specification the HTHS is 3.5 cP minimum. Castrol is just listing the minimum HTHS by grade.
 

James & Son

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Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta
Ok I said I would report back after i replaced my cam last week and broke it in. The stock second cam was not that bad( replaced under warrantee late 2009, but I had tried many things to get an oil film established at the nose but it just kept eating the black coating. I was on my 4th follower for exhaust 1 and 2 cylinder, even though the nose of the cam was good and only showed .0015 to .002 wear on both lobes thy had picked up follower metal each time the black coating wore through.

Like i said I did a lot of research of the scientific literature. I want to talk about film strength and break in oils. But first read this and note the flash temps on the mono grades verses the multi grade on the vintage group 1 oils.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/April-1-2012.php
 

Dimitri16V

Top Post Dawg
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Location
DE
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01 Golf, 04 Golf
the black coating on the lifters is sacrificial .
the base of the lobe definitely drags on the lifter excessively

PDs should only use thick oils in the 50s range
 

James & Son

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Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
the black coating on the lifters is sacrificial .
the base of the lobe definitely drags on the lifter excessively

PDs should only use thick oils in the 50s range
Here is my feelings on the PD issue. After reviewing the scientific literature you need the inlet temperature at the lobe follower interface( EHL oil film) and the base oil viscosity at that temperature designated by the 5w, to determine the oil film thickness in the EHL( elesto-hydro lubrication).

The 40 or 50 viscosity designation is polymer generated and temporarily shears in the EHL and therefore is of no consequence in determining oil thickness in the EHL.

In fact this is why I want people to look at the vintage motor oil mono grades and note the flash temperatures. The 20w20 mono grade also does not have any polymers and will equal a 15w40 synthetic in the 105 C range. The 20w-20 may equal the 5w-40 synthetic in the 110 to 115C range.

Edit I now need people to read this before we continue
http://www.synmaxperformancelubricants.com/PDFs/SynMax_UNV_Automotive_ Base_Oil_Presentation.pdf

Going back to my last post. I was preparing one to understand that a solvent refined group 1 single grade oil non detergent motor oil with a viscosity of 13 cst is the ideal break in oil with ZDDPlus added assuming a follower inlet temperature of 105-110 C.

I want to make three things clear

1) you can formulate a break in oil specifically for the PD based on mixing mono grade motor oils.

2) The black coating can cause problems when it starts to wear through if it fractures( very small fragments that scores the underlying substrate) due to stress loading by the EHL oil film load or actual asperity contact in boundary or mixed lubrication. I am suggesting you need an ester/pao mix oil to prevent this happening.

3) If the black coating is worn away and a smooth follower substrate( carbon steel) is exposed then you can run any of the oils that are recommended because the additive packages are designed for steel on steel.
 
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mu3098

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tikal

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Southeast Texas
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mu3098

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2006 VW Jetta TDI, 2011 VW Golf Wagon TDI

mu3098

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2006 VW Jetta TDI, 2011 VW Golf Wagon TDI

James & Son

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Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta
http://motul.speclube.com/faq/

Motul products are categorized from our best and highest technology to the lower technologies. Which product is right for you will depend on your needs and requirements.
300V is our most advanced base stock featuring double ester technology, a true racing product used by top race teams in the international arena yet available to car aficionados. Due to its exceedingly high standards, many passionate enthusiasts are using this product in their high performance street cars.

8100 Premium Synthetic is our most advanced synthetic base stock, using Ester and PAO technology, these products surpass the latest Manufactures’ Approvals with flying colours, longer drain intervals and fuel economy for maximum efficiency and protection for your investment.

6100 Synthetic utilizes our advanced base stock with Group III technology; these products achieve the latest Manufactures’ Approvals with recommended drain intervals and fuel economy improvements.
The problem is 3% and up to 7% seems to be the norm for pao oils and i need a much higher content since I am looking for the advantages of heat transfer and shock absorbtion. The renewable lube has 25% natural ester,the rest pao and additives and a VI of 190 at 14 cst 100 c. One would immediately think of redline, But since I want the follower to bleed down to minimize base circle contact redline is to thick. Edit, but I should not rule out their 5w-30 though.

Redline 5w-30 and redline 5w-30 Euro, what is the difference?
 
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FXDL

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Barrie Ontario Canada
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2015 Jetta TDI with DSG
I have heard that Redline is not consistent in their oils from batch to batch and their oils are causing problems? At $18.00 a qt up here they can keep it. Redline claims their oil is a PAO I believe, which is the only oil you can use in a jet engine, maybe so but Redline in a jet engine as they imply from their oil spec write up on their site.. I like Amsoil's oil for my 2010 TDI as I have tried Liqui Moly Top Tech 4200 and the Amsoil out performs the TP 4200 hands down. The Amsoil only costs me a little more the the TP 4200 and the Amsoil is a group IV where as the TP only a III. The car runs much quieter then the Top Tech and seat of the pants feels much better too. I know people don't like Amsoil, well too bad because one of the better oils out there and they are consistent from batch to batch. Use what you will as we will never agree with one another. Because I like Amsoil and say it is one of the better oils out, I am sure all the experts will tune in telling me why it isn't. Each their own.
 
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James & Son

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James & Son

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Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta
Ok, I am updating this thread. I put a cheap Febi cam in 37000 kilometers ago spring of 2015 in my 2006 BRM PD. I wanted to run a PAO/Ester oil because the science indicated good EHD iubrication and other beneficial properties.

I ran it out to 13750 miles on the second oil change and obtained a UOA wear metal rate of 1.75 parts/million/1000 miles.

I am running a by pass filter that adds 1 quart to the sump or dilutes the wear rate. Wear rate compensated for this is 5.73/4.73 x 1.75= 2.12 wear metal rate/ 1000 miles
for a 4.73 quart sump( 4.5L).

The wear metal rate for my BRM running Renewable Lubricants Inc. (RLI) 5w-40 low ash CJ4 is 2.12/1000 mi.

https://renewablelube.com/products/engine-oils/

Looking at the oem cams the best was 3.58 for a BRM by Wjdell

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=205814

I need some help so I will post my UOA tomorrow in a new Lubricants thread.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
Backing up a bit, while Red Line advertises/touts their high PolyOl Ester basestock and they almost make it seem as if that is what the basestock oil is entirely made of, search Bobistheoilguy enough and you'll find evidence stating that while a majority of the basestock is in fact POE, there is a healthy percentage of PAO in the basestock as well.

I would be interested in seeing some numbers from your car on Red Line's traditional 5w40, NOT the Euro 5w40. The higher ZDDP levels in their non-Euro 5w40 should do well with cam protection. It does claim to meet an older 505.01 specification, which is more applicable to our 8V PD engines anyway, seeing as how they did not come with DPFs as many later PDs in Europe did.

My last oil change I've used Red Line 5w40 in my 2006 Jetta TDI. Car has over 260,000 miles on it now. I've only driven the car myself since July last year... I don't have any base UOAs to compare it to using different oils.

But, since you have already done some UOAs, I would be interested in seeing the numbers. RLI has certainly got my attention for a number of reasons and comparing it vs Red Line on the same engine and similar operating conditions would be of interest to me.
 

James & Son

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Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
A polar ester needs lots of additives to compensate for this polarity. Therefore to meet low ash requirements you have to reduce the polarity of the base oil. I think RLI( renewable Lub Inc.) is a good mix of about 50 to 60% PAO and the rest an organic ester which provides the good film characterics for the cam follower and cam lobe.

Specifically I wanted characteristics that were going to protect the black carbon or DLC coating of the follower. Ester can transfer heat faster than a mineral oil for example. But the most important is the reduced shock as the oil departs the highly viscous film under the nose of the cam. This is called the pressure/viscosity co-efficient of the oil. The higher a pressure/co-efficient the greater the shock to the follower as the oil film unloads.

I believe this is why cam failure can happen vary quickly( under 100,000 miles). The diamond like carbon coating as it wears thin must not shatter but wear away gradually and that is why I picked a PAO/Ester oil to help my followers reach the point of bare steel without the coating peeling or shattering from the de-compression shock loads of the oil film 1 GPa ( over 100,000 psi) or more.

If the coating shatters, flakes or peels, the follower scores the nitrided steel of the center follower surface and oil film is lost creating friction and heat which can lead to scuffing and tearing of the follower surface.

If your followers have passed this wear stage without scoring then any quality diesel oil work.
 

James & Son

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Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta
I am bumping this thread as I believe the previous post(48) is very important if you do not do a lot of highway driving and the warm up zone of the motor becomes a significant factor in the life of your cam especially from 0-100,000 miles.

The following adds to your general knowledge of base oils.
http://www.crodalubricants.com/home.aspx?d=content&s=133&r=205&p=5639

Edit: My wifes 2006 TDI Jetta is an example of a cam shaft eater. Going to work is a 20-25 minute drive with the car being in the warm up zone for 10-15 minutes depending if it is summer or winter. My first UOA on RLI was positive but unless i get 3 UOA I will not know for sure how well the cam is wearing. The key is how well it wears through the black follower coating and that is why I am cautious about predicting wear in the first 100,000 miles.
 
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