injector bodies which are best pd 1.9

KERMA · Jan 20, 2015

You know it's weird how people on the internet like to exaggerate things to a ridiculous extreme to try and prove them right/wrong in these forum arguments. (this is called a logical fallacy, straw man I think.)

A: Sunny days are good.
B: If all days were sunny, we'd never have rain, and without rain, we'd have famine and death.

A: We should relax the laws on beer.
B: No, any society with unrestricted access to intoxicants loses its work ethic and goes only for immediate gratification.
(examples from wikipedia)

Pete NEVER said PD150 injectors are "not tuneable" (that I know of)

He DID say that they appear to be more physically limited than the others, and offered an opinion that the others are better for getting more power.

This follows my own experience. The guys with modded BEW injectors seem to do better on the dyno than the guys with modded PD150 injectors, everything else being equal.

YMMV of course.

devonutopia · Jan 20, 2015

Here are the results from United Diesel. Hope the part numbers bare some reference to the injectors available stateside.

QUOTED
Right guys the results are as follows, we used the same DSSR 130+ nozzles, set the NOP 1 pressure to 300 Bar on the 3 bodies and the deliveries are different.
The injectors used were,
038 130 073 AL - 0414 720 039 - PDE-P1.3/80/550S39 – ARL - 150 Bhp
038 130 073 AG – 0414 720 215 - PDE-P1.1/80/425S215 – BXE – 105Bhp
038 130 073 BF – 0414 720 223 - PDE-P1.1/80/425S223 – BWE – 100 Bhp
The fuelling results are,
038 130 073 AL Low delivery 13.0 ccs / Full load 32.0 ccs
038 130 073 AG Low delivery 13.0 ccs / Full load 34.0 ccs
038 130 073 BF Low delivery 14.0 ccs / Full load 35.6 ccs
So the conclusion is that PD bodies do flow differently, but personally I do not believe that for “normal” tuning it will make that much of a difference to the performance of the vehicle. It might be more relevant if you were performing a “super tune” and needed every ccs of fuel.

devonutopia · Jan 20, 2015

so to summarise, yes PD105/100 flow more, but ultimately when fitting bigger nozzles to pretty much any PD injector for anything other than a balls out drag power car, choice of body is fairly irrelevant.

doktorec · Jan 20, 2015

Of course it's not simple as that. Why didn't you post the whole United diesel research. Injector body has calibration. With the same calibration they flow the same. So the problem is not the injector body. It's the calibration and after 320BHP is the piston size.8mm piston with standart stroke can make 320-330 hp max no mather what nozzle you use.

Drivbiwire · Jan 20, 2015

devonutopia said:
Here are the results from United Diesel. Hope the part numbers bare some reference to the injectors available stateside.

QUOTED
Right guys the results are as follows, we used the same DSSR 130+ nozzles, set the NOP 1 pressure to 300 Bar on the 3 bodies and the deliveries are different.
The injectors used were,
038 130 073 AL - 0414 720 039 - PDE-P1.3/80/550S39 – ARL - 150 Bhp
038 130 073 AG – 0414 720 215 - PDE-P1.1/80/425S215 – BXE – 105Bhp
038 130 073 BF – 0414 720 223 - PDE-P1.1/80/425S223 – BWE – 100 Bhp
The fuelling results are,
038 130 073 AL Low delivery 13.0 ccs / Full load 32.0 ccs
038 130 073 AG Low delivery 13.0 ccs / Full load 34.0 ccs
038 130 073 BF Low delivery 14.0 ccs / Full load 35.6 ccs
So the conclusion is that PD bodies do flow differently, but personally I do not believe that for “normal” tuning it will make that much of a difference to the performance of the vehicle. It might be more relevant if you were performing a “super tune” and needed every ccs of fuel.

As I was saying....

12% more fueling at the range it matters most... Nope nothing significant about that....

rspring · Jan 20, 2015

Is the BWE the same as BEW? Or maybe the BEW uses AG?

ryanp · Jan 21, 2015

doktorec said:
Of course it's not simple as that. Why didn't you post the whole United diesel research. Injector body has calibration. With the same calibration they flow the same. So the problem is not the injector body. It's the calibration and after 320BHP is the piston size.8mm piston with standart stroke can make 320-330 hp max no mather what nozzle you use.

we have 400+hp on stock 8mm piston

devonutopia · Jan 21, 2015

doktorec said:
Of course it's not simple as that. Why didn't you post the whole United diesel research. Injector body has calibration. With the same calibration they flow the same. So the problem is not the injector body. It's the calibration and after 320BHP is the piston size.8mm piston with standart stroke can make 320-330 hp max no mather what nozzle you use.

I did quote all the research. The bodies were not touched during the testing to get a baseline. It sounds like they will be experimenting with body modification though.

K.I.T.T. · Jan 21, 2015

So much BS being spouted in this thread, it's brilliant

keaton · Jan 21, 2015

Drivbiwire said:
You want pictures of the restriction circuit? its a designed in limitation that cannot be swapped out...

Yes please!

Drivbiwire · Jan 21, 2015

This is the flow circuit for the BEW injector

There is a flow dish that smoothly routes the high pressure fuel to the primary feed channel. The feed channel passes directly down to the nozzle. There is no change of direction so the high pressure pump is literally pushing the fuel in one central direction toward the nozzle without any pressure losses.

This is the flow circuit for the PD150

The PD150 does NOT use the dish like the BEW, so the fuel has to make a sharper entry into the retraction piston port, this has a mild effect on flow due to the sharp angular entry of the fuel along the face of the pump base plate.

After the fuel passes across the retraction piston, it makes a 90 degree turn and passes across the retraction piston feed channel.

The fuel makes another 90 degree turn (again no dish to smooth the entry) and now the fuel passes vertically down to the nozzle and the rest is identical to the BEW after this point.

K.I.T.T. · Jan 21, 2015

Source of those diagrams?

Drivbiwire · Jan 22, 2015

K.I.T.T. said:
Source of those diagrams?

Who do you think...

doktorec · Jan 22, 2015

ryanp said:
we have 400+hp on stock 8mm piston

Yes.With meth and nitro.I ment on diesel only.

ryanp · Jan 22, 2015

No meth on any dyno run from us ever

Without NOS we have 380hp on realistic dyno, 8v PD

K.I.T.T. · Jan 22, 2015

Drivbiwire said:
Who do you think...

Answered like a politician.

Drivbiwire · Jan 22, 2015

Trust me my artistic abilities don't allow me to do CAD work that well...

leon10tagg · Jan 22, 2015

Drivbiwire said:
This is the flow circuit for the BEW injector

There is a flow dish that smoothly routes the high pressure fuel to the primary feed channel. The feed channel passes directly down to the nozzle. There is no change of direction so the high pressure pump is literally pushing the fuel in one central direction toward the nozzle without any pressure losses.

This is the flow circuit for the PD150

The PD150 does NOT use the dish like the BEW, so the fuel has to make a sharper entry into the retraction piston port, this has a mild effect on flow due to the sharp angular entry of the fuel along the face of the pump base plate.

After the fuel passes across the retraction piston, it makes a 90 degree turn and passes across the retraction piston feed channel.

The fuel makes another 90 degree turn (again no dish to smooth the entry) and now the fuel passes vertically down to the nozzle and the rest is identical to the BEW after this point.

I'm on the look out for a set

....12% gain to me sounds OK...

keaton · Jan 22, 2015

Drivbiwire said:
This is the flow circuit for the BEW injector

There is a flow dish that smoothly routes the high pressure fuel to the primary feed channel. The feed channel passes directly down to the nozzle. There is no change of direction so the high pressure pump is literally pushing the fuel in one central direction toward the nozzle without any pressure losses.

This is the flow circuit for the PD150

The PD150 does NOT use the dish like the BEW, so the fuel has to make a sharper entry into the retraction piston port, this has a mild effect on flow due to the sharp angular entry of the fuel along the face of the pump base plate.

After the fuel passes across the retraction piston, it makes a 90 degree turn and passes across the retraction piston feed channel.

The fuel makes another 90 degree turn (again no dish to smooth the entry) and now the fuel passes vertically down to the nozzle and the rest is identical to the BEW after this point.

posted earlier I think, but you can't swap out #37, right?
if that is the case, why not mill out that area on a PD150?
if you are milling that area out, why not add a radius to the edge as well?

other than it's time consuming.

Drivbiwire · Jan 22, 2015

You can't, the pieces have different alignments of all the ports and channels, I have looked at it and there is no way to do it.

All the pieces are hardened high grade steel you can't drill it... EDM sure, but its cheaper to get a different injector than to waste the time.

leon10tagg · Feb 28, 2015

What about AVB injector bodies......do they flow like the BEW injector bodies??

rspring · Mar 6, 2015

BEW bodies with Firad +80 seem to be good for 300/450 all-wheel so far. Final tuning not done.

Fullhouse · Jul 16, 2015

I have an ARL 150PD with GTB2260VK turbo..
With cold weather I have 235hp, with hot weather it drops to 225 hp.

Last year I placed R783 nozzles and I did not gain in HP (235hp)
So I went back to OEM nozzles..

Also I have my cylinderhead replaced because my timingbelt broke down

I read this thread and I was wondering if I placed AXR/ATD/BEW injector bodies with firad 80+ nozzles...
Is this really getting me more HP than I just place firad 80+ nozzles on my ARL injector bodies ?

Drivbiwire · Jul 16, 2015

Fullhouse said:
I have an ARL 150PD with GTB2260VK turbo..
With cold weather I have 235hp, with hot weather it drops to 225 hp.

Last year I placed R783 nozzles and I did not gain in HP (235hp)
So I went back to OEM nozzles..

Also I have my cylinderhead replaced because my timingbelt broke down

I read this thread and I was wondering if I placed AXR/ATD/BEW injector bodies with firad 80+ nozzles...
Is this really getting me more HP than I just place firad 80+ nozzles on my ARL injector bodies ?

The ARL has a flow restriction channel, this will limit the nozzle peak flow volume.

The R783 far exceeds the Firad 80% capability.

The BEW pump and injector assembly are the way to go.

Yucca · Jul 16, 2015

Drivbiwire said:
The R783 far exceeds the Firad 80% capability.

My friend have 1.9PD with Firad 80%, car makes 365bhp.

I have not seen any R783 setup that makes 350bhp or over...

Drivbiwire · Jul 16, 2015

Yucca said:
My friend have 1.9PD with Firad 80%, car makes 365bhp.

I have not seen any R783 setup that makes 350bhp or over...

The raw flow of the R783 is more than double that of the Firad 80%

Fullhouse · Jul 16, 2015

Drivbiwire said:
The ARL has a flow restriction channel, this will limit the nozzle peak flow volume.

The R783 far exceeds the Firad 80% capability.

The BEW pump and injector assembly are the way to go.

The european version of the BEW body..is it really ATD/AXR ? Because I read somewhere that the AXR/ATD bodies are the old ones...

Can anyone confirm this?

Perhaps an OEM number for the same bodies which I can find here in Europe?

poormanq45 · Jul 16, 2015

I haven't gotten anyone to answer me on this question, please look at this page. Can someone explain how the power limit is 230bhp? Aren't the stock BEW bodies and nozzles good for around 170hp? I don't see many BEWs breaking the 200hp mark either way...:
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/1-9-8v-tdi-pd150-arl-injector-set-038-130-073-al.html

"Standard Replacement Injectors for PD130 ASZ and PD150 ARL

•Injector Upgrade for PD100, PD115 and PD105 Engines

•Flow fuel up to 230bhp with the correct turbo

•Fully tested good working injectors"

So why not just drop in the PD150s? Are these flow restrictions mentioned even in the realm of power that most of us shoot for?

Example, I have a VNT17 on my BEW. To max out the turbo while being within safety spec, which option would get the best drivability, efficiency and the least smoke?

Thank you in advance.

Drivbiwire · Jul 16, 2015

The PD150 At the wheels they are 175 ish injectors, but smoke and EGT's are going to really get up there due to the slower flow curve. Also the ECU will be maxing out solenoid times due to the longer injection duration needed to get the volume delivered.

Comparing actual nozzle flow capability:

DLSA 150P 706 = 90hp Stock TDI as your reference
DSLA 150P 1043 = 150hp PD flows exactly 49% more fuel than a 90hp TDI stock nozzle.

Have you ever heard of a stock 90hp TDI getting 150hp with a chip alone? (Or even with the most extreme mods for that matter)

The PD does have the ability flow over a wider range than the older VE TDI, however pushing the nozzle flow range that far results is VERY negative affects on the motor, Excessive advance (excess cylinder pressure read cracking heads), Excess EGT due to very long duration injection (excess turbo temperatures).

Thats why VW/Bosch designed them the way they did, to limit tuning...

3L3M3NT · Jul 16, 2015

Drivbiwire said:
The PD150 At the wheels they are 175 ish injectors, but smoke and EGT's are going to really get up there due to the slower flow curve. Also the ECU will be maxing out solenoid times due to the longer injection duration needed to get the volume delivered.

Comparing actual nozzle flow capability:

DLSA 150P 706 = 90hp Stock TDI as your reference
DSLA 150P 1043 = 150hp PD flows exactly 49% more fuel than a 90hp TDI stock nozzle.

Have you ever heard of a stock 90hp TDI getting 150hp with a chip alone? (Or even with the most extreme mods for that matter)

The PD does have the ability flow over a wider range than the older VE TDI, however pushing the nozzle flow range that far results is VERY negative affects on the motor, Excessive advance (excess cylinder pressure read cracking heads), Excess EGT due to very long duration injection (excess turbo temperatures).

Thats why VW/Bosch designed them the way they did, to limit tuning...

I hate to burst your bubble, but I dynoed my car on my stock PD injectors and got to exactly 150 hp.

Here are the charts and videos to prove it.

Apparently Jeff at Rockectchip knows what he's doing.

injector bodies which are best pd 1.9

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