Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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dremd

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06 sprinter. 03 jetta wagon premium with 6 speed ALH swap, 14 JSW
No regrets at all on my Leaf, however none of my local Nissan dealers will even fix a tire on it. My nearest Leaf dealer is 80 miles away. I haven’t really had any issues, but I do have a pair of recalls that I’ deferring due to inconvenience.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
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Springfield, VA
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‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
I have been following this subject of EVs with interest as I see them a potential good value for short trips in an mostly urban environment with certain tradeoffs of course. I am not in the market to buy a car but if I was my main concern with buying one of these used 'bargain' electrical vehicles such as the Fiat 500e would be serviceability in states that do not sell them (50 -2 = 48). Ok I understand they have, relative to an ICE, less things that can break or need maintenance, right? What if an something electronic (or electromechanical) goes bad in a Fiat 500e in the Houston area, is there an EV guru to go to fix it? What if a driver of a Fiat 500e gets in an accident in the same metropolitan area, then what?
So I buy a three year old EV for $9K; what risks I will be taking if I want to keep the car for another 8 to 10 years in an area that does not sell/service such a vehicle?
tikal: So, under warranty, Fiat will fly an electric specialist to your dealer if needed, as far as I know.

Outside of warranty... I think they still will, but you'll pay for it.

However, there are a fair amount of independent EV/hybrid specialists (and unlike TDI specialists, it's a growth market, across multiple brands), and there are a lot of used 500es that have left the California/Oregon area. So, independents are likely to figure out how to fix these, just like independents figured out each successive generation of TDI.
There are several Fiat dealerships around the country that are certified to work on the 500e. Fiat has been doing a pretty good job of getting dealerships trained and supplying them with the proper equipment to handle off-lease 500es that are migrating from California and Oregon.
 

bizzle

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Don't just consider the service, although that matters too dremd and I can attest to (local dealers refusing to so much as touch an EV even for non-EV issues).

Someone hit my wife's eGolf a few months ago and we took it to a local body shop who assured us they had done work on EVs before. They stripped it down until they got to the rear panel and had to contact VW regarding shutting the high voltage down, which required special tools they didn't have.

So they put it all back together and gave it back to us to start the process over with a new body shop. The only body shop certified to work on electric golfs in the San Diego area is in North County--a little over 150 miles away from where the car was. Currently, the car is under the 3 year VW Care so VW towed it to their service center without charging us and then my insurance company agreed to tow it back. The time from the car being hit and being returned was a little over two months.

So be mindful that it's not just service you have to consider, which probably won't be a frequent concern, but minor fender benders, etc. can't be repaired by average shops currently either. Also, keep in mind the EVs on the market right now are still undergoing research and development. There have been numerous recalls regarding the eGolf, one of which was a serious and dangerous issue of the system shutting down at high speed. Like dremd, I saved up a short list of recalls before I finally made the trek into my closest dealership who could do them (about 120 miles each way) because we basically had to give up the car for a whole week to negotiate the distance and service time.

I've already questioned the claim of offsetting the costs related to EVs (oil changes, brakes, etc.) and non-EVs, but ignoring everything else and just considering a single tow for a few hundred miles each way is going to erase any savings gained from not having to do traditional services on the car.
 

Oilerlord

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I've already questioned the claim of offsetting the costs related to EVs (oil changes, brakes, etc.) and non-EVs, but ignoring everything else and just considering a single tow for a few hundred miles each way is going to erase any savings gained from not having to do traditional services on the car.
Well, I suppose it depends on how long you intend to own the EV. My Audi A4 costed me ~$25,000 in gasoline, oil services, brakes, fuel pump, water pump, timing chain, etc, (stuff that wouldn't apply to my EV) over the course of 100,000 miles. If I'm able to put 100,000 miles on my EV, and assuming it stays as trouble-free as it's been, the savings will speak for themselves. Lot's of "if's", for sure but I took a similar chance on my JSW when I imported it from the US. No Canadian VW dealership would honor warranty on a US car. A catastrophic failure with my JSW would have also necessitated a trip to Seattle.

In the event I have to tow the Mercedes to Seattle; I'd just look at it as an unscheduled vacation. My wife loves Seattle. I do too. When life serves lemons, make lemonade.
 

tikal

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Thanks for the feedback Oilerlord; sounds reasonable what you say. In a few years metro areas like Houston and the like will have more possibilities to service these used EVs.

You sound like me about six months before I bought my EV :)

You're correct to weigh the advantages offuel savings against the risks of non-existent serviceability in your area (I did). I'm quite sure that I have the only Mercedes B250e within 1000 miles of where I live. There is also a zero chance of getting my local Mercedes dealership to service any of the electric bits in the car because they have neither the equipment or the training to do so.

So, if my battery, drivetrain, charging system, or related electrical bits break down; worst case means I'm towing it to Seattle. Not too big of a deal as I have other cars to drive, and can borrow a truck to tow it if the need arises.

I accepted that risk mostly because of the faith I have in my car's Tesla supplied battery & drivetrain, and because EV's have an overall track record of stellar reliability.

Like you, I'm also looking out 8 to 10 years with my car. I already know that there is a VERY small market for a car like mine in my area, but because I intend to keep it for a long time, resale value doesn't much matter because I will have already saved the price I paid for the car in not burning gasoline, and not having to pay for services like oil changes and related engine maintenance. With regenerative braking, I may never need to replace the brake pads either because they rarely get used.

Though your concerns are certainly valid, from my experience; I think you're reading too much into them. Notwithstanding the car's electric drive system, the rest of the car can be serviced at your local Fiat dealership. I really believe that a Fiat 500e will be far more reliable than it's Fiat 500 gasoline counterpart. Much more fun to drive too.

Hope this helps.
 

turbobrick240

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maine
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Thanks for the feedback Oilerlord; sounds reasonable what you say. In a few years metro areas like Houston and the like will have more possibilities to service these used EVs.
Austin is pretty progressive when it comes to EV's, solar, etc. There should be service options there earlier than just about anywhere else in Tx.
 

Oilerlord

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As an example of serviceability, I had an oops my first winter with the EV. I didn't realize that the washer fluid that shipped with the car wasn't rated down to -30C - until the hose that feeds the rear window froze, and had to be replaced. My local Mercedes dealership had no problem taking my $180 for that one.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
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Springfield, VA
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‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
No new posts here in 16 days? Has everyone forgotten about......:eek:
Jason and I went to the Tesla store in downtown D.C. yesterday and waiting in line for a chance to sit in the Model 3. The red paint was simply gorgeous and the interior was understated and quite nice. It isn't luxury by any stretch of the imagination, but it's well thought out and pretty comfortable.

Picture: https://photos.app.goo.gl/xEdzLTDmeMlvOqQC2

After that, we went to Moore Cadillac in Chantilly, VA and test drove a 2014 Cadillac ELR. It has a gen 1 Chevy Volt drive train and an absolutely fantastic interior. I think the styling is gorgeous, although some don't agree. The new price of an ELR was a staggering $80,000, but used prices have plumeted, with most of them being in the mid-20s. The car had a couple of issues that I've asked their service department to look into. This all started when Jason complained about vehicles with stiff suspension, so I jokingly replied that I was going to get him a Cadillac... and here we are. :eek:

Picture: https://photos.app.goo.gl/pn3xpBV64MPVHpR53
 
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aja8888

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Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
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Out of TDI's
Jason and I went to the Tesla store in downtown D.C. yesterday and waiting in line for a chance to sit in the Model 3. The red paint was simply gorgeous and the interior was understated and quite nice. It isn't luxury by any stretch of the imagination, but it's well thought out and pretty comfortable.

Picture: https://photos.app.goo.gl/xEdzLTDmeMlvOqQC2

After that, we went to Moore Cadillac in Chantilly, VA and test drove a 2014 Cadillac ELR. It has a gen 1 Chevy Volt drive train and an absolutely fantastic interior. I think the styling is gorgeous, although some don't agree. The new price of an ELR was a staggering $80,000, but used prices have plumeted, with most of them being in the mid-20s. The car had a couple of issues that I've asked their service department to look into. This all started when Jason complained about vehicles with stiff suspension, so I jokingly replied that I was going to get him a Cadillac... and here we are. :eek:

Picture: https://photos.app.goo.gl/pn3xpBV64MPVHpR53
Two nice cars..thanks for the photos? Is Jason interested in the 2014 ELR?
 

Oilerlord

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2012 JSW TDI w/DSG. 700 Mile Club. 2008 BMW X3 "Beatrice", 2004 BMW 330Xi, 2014 Mercedes B-Class Electric
A client of mine really likes my B250e and made me a surprise offer for it...about $5000 less than I paid. At first, I considered it a pretty solid offer and my car-guy juices started flowing again and I've been shopping around for EV's. Trouble is, 1.5 years, and 19,000 miles later - I still really dig the B250e, and haven't found an EV short of $50K that I like better than what I'm already driving. Would I like more range? Sure. Is it an issue? Not really. As a city car, it's awesome. We have other cars to drive for occasional long trips.

I'm thinking my next EV will be a Chevy Bolt, but who knows. It would have to be the "Premier" trim with leather and all the goodies. In about a year, we should see lease returns priced at around $25K...which is about the max I'm comfortable spending on any car. Thoughts?
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
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Location
Springfield, VA
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‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
A client of mine really likes my B250e and made me a surprise offer for it...about $5000 less than I paid. At first, I considered it a pretty solid offer and my car-guy juices started flowing again and I've been shopping around for EV's. Trouble is, 1.5 years, and 19,000 miles later - I still really dig the B250e, and haven't found an EV short of $50K that I like better than what I'm already driving. Would I like more range? Sure. Is it an issue? Not really. As a city car, it's awesome. We have other cars to drive for occasional long trips.

I'm thinking my next EV will be a Chevy Bolt, but who knows. It would have to be the "Premier" trim with leather and all the goodies. In about a year, we should see lease returns priced at around $25K...which is about the max I'm comfortable spending on any car. Thoughts?
They Bolt would probably suit your needs very well. If your buddy increased his offer a bit, would that change your mind?

The interior of the Bolt is less comfortable than the B Class, but if you can get past that, I think it has a lot to offer, especially in the range department.
 

Oilerlord

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The interior of the Bolt is less comfortable than the B Class, but if you can get past that, I think it has a lot to offer, especially in the range department.
That's the part I have trouble getting past. The offer he made on the B is reasonable. Aside from range, every used EV in the ~$20-25K range feels like a downgrade. I don't really want to go the PHEV route (Volt, or facsimiles). The 150 EPA miles a the new Leaf SL would suit me fine. Thought I haven't sat in one, it does look like comfortable car. Anyone here drive the new 2018 Leaf?
 

VeeDubTDI

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That's the part I have trouble getting past. The offer he made on the B is reasonable. Aside from range, every used EV in the ~$20-25K range feels like a downgrade. I don't really want to go the PHEV route (Volt, or facsimiles). The 150 EPA miles a the new Leaf SL would suit me fine. Thought I haven't sat in one, it does look like comfortable car. Anyone here drive the new 2018 Leaf?
The new LEAF is essentially the same as the old LEAF, but with more range and more power. The LEAF is a very comfortable car, with more passenger room than the B class, particularly in the back seat. Driving dynamics are a little boring, but still very good. I would be concerned about battery degradation, as it appears that Nissan has done nothing to address that from the old LEAFs, continuing with no thermal management on the new cars. This might not be as much of an issue in Edmonton.
 

compu_85

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La Conner, WA
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... None :S
From the brief time I spent in the 18 at the auto show, I found the interior of the '12 to be much nicer and with a lot more headroom. I don't fit in the back of the 18, and have trouble seeing out the front as well.

-J
 

VeeDubTDI

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‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
From the brief time I spent in the 18 at the auto show, I found the interior of the '12 to be much nicer and with a lot more headroom. I don't fit in the back of the 18, and have trouble seeing out the front as well.

-J
Oh right. I remember you mentioning that the seats seemed to be a little higher up in the new car, which makes sense, given the additional battery size under the floor. I didn't really notice, but I also didn't sit in the back of the new LEAF at the auto show.
 

dremd

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South Louisiana
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FEED ME, I"M HUNGRY! :p
Picked it up a week ago at a local dealer for my mother. It is a 2012 with just under 50,000 miles, has a 6 month old traction battery, but a dead heater. Paid next to nothing because the Chevrolet dealer didn't want to bring it 75 miles to the nearest Nissan dealer that works on EV's nor did they want to spend the $$.

As always it is interesting to have 2 versions of nearly the same car around. It is actually significantly different than my 2013.

2012 has Aluminum body panels
2012 doesn't limit motor power below 30 mph
2012 came with leveling LED headlights my 2013 had heat globes that I upgraded
2013 has 6.6 kw charger vs 2012 3.3kw charger
2013 has charger up front for extra trunk room.
2013 has heat pump and a resistance heater VS 2012 only has (broken) resistance heater
2013 has electronic charge door open 2012 uses a hood release
2013 shows % charge remaining + Guess O Meter range 2012 only has Guess O Meter range.
 

El Dobro

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NJ
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Picked it up a week ago at a local dealer for my mother. It is a 2012 with just under 50,000 miles, has a 6 month old traction battery, but a dead heater. Paid next to nothing because the Chevrolet dealer didn't want to bring it 75 miles to the nearest Nissan dealer that works on EV's nor did they want to spend the $$.
I was at the Chevy dealer I bought the Volt from one day and they had a Tesla S there that was traded in on a Vette. I was told by the sales manager that they wanted Tesla to check it out, but it would be over three weeks before it could be looked at, so they sold it as is for $50,000. It lasted three days on the lot.
 

Oilerlord

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Picked it up a week ago at a local dealer for my mother. It is a 2012 with just under 50,000 miles, has a 6 month old traction battery, but a dead heater. Paid next to nothing because the Chevrolet dealer didn't want to bring it 75 miles to the nearest Nissan dealer that works on EV's nor did they want to spend the $$.
Just curious, how did you search / find that car? I've done searches on several car sales sites using keywords such as "replaced battery" or "new battery" and still had to sift through dozens of cars without finding and old car with a new battery.
 

CraziFuzzy

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Jurupa Valley
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'09 JSW (GoneBack) - replaced with '15 Azera and '16 Fiat 500e.
I need to go down and sit in an Ioniq in the next year or so before my fiat lease is up. On paper, it does everything I need. My only initial concern is it seems far to 'gadgetty' compared to the simplicity of the fiat, but the fiat simply won't fit my girls much longer.
 

dremd

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Just curious, how did you search / find that car? I've done searches on several car sales sites using keywords such as "replaced battery" or "new battery" and still had to sift through dozens of cars without finding and old car with a new battery.
I found it by dumb luck.
It had been listed for 2 months and I hadn’t even noticed, when I had plugged in LeafSpy I saw that Battery state of health was very high, and the heater was shot. I brought up the heater and they realized I knew more about it than anybody there. I then realized that I know the previous owner and called him.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Springfield, VA
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‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Just curious, how did you search / find that car? I've done searches on several car sales sites using keywords such as "replaced battery" or "new battery" and still had to sift through dozens of cars without finding and old car with a new battery.
The best way is to sift through the pictures and look at the battery health meter. A 2012 - 2014 with all 12 capacity bars remaining probably means that it has a new traction battery. However, this is not a guarantee, as sneaky dealers can reset the battery health system with a scan tool and it can take 6 or more months for it to fully calibrate and show the current state of health (our roommate found this out the hard way).
 
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