PD Injector Readings Vag-com

pmag

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Location
Braga-Portugal
TDI
Ibiza
Hi!!

This readings are normal for ARL PD injectors? Or the differences between each injector are too high?




Thanks
 

TDI4all

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Location
Buford,Ga.
TDI
2004 Jetta 5spd
I have basically the same reading with positive and negative outputs in group 13. I was going to open a thread on this, but I will just monitor this thread.
Actually after looking again only cylinder 1 has a deviation of -0.31 at idle and increases as idle increases.
 
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JFettig

Vendor
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Location
Blaine, MN
TDI
B5 Passat, 2010 Jetta
They appear to be pretty close to the max tolerable spec. They should be closer to zero.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Most healthy PDs will have numbers at hot idle +/- 1.00 or less. So while your car may not be in the range of needing to do something, as it is within the ECU's ability to fine tune, it is on the high side and may signal an issue that will need attention at some point and time. Max is +/- 2.99 on most engines, so your #3 is getting close.

Now, that does not necessarily mean the injector itself is to blame, but usually unless something mechanically is really tooefed the injector is the problem.
 

dieselpower04

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Location
Outside Tampa, FL
TDI
2004 Golf GLS TDI (sold)
I was having an issue with my ARL injectors when I installed them, out of balance like that. Ran two cans of Diesel Purge through them, cleaned them up and balanced out those readings.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I was having an issue with my ARL injectors when I installed them, out of balance like that. Ran two cans of Diesel Purge through them, cleaned them up and balanced out those readings.

Yep, that is certainly worth a shot! Thanks for sharing your good fortune with Diesel Purge. I, too, have used it in the past on VE TDIs and IDIs with good results.
 

pmag

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Location
Braga-Portugal
TDI
Ibiza
This strange values only appear after change the original PD130 BLT injectors for others from PD150 ARL ones.

My question is if anyone knows if this a problem on injectors or something that should be adjusted on ECU.

The injectors have been inspected and tested before mounted on engine and all seemed be ok.
 
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LNXGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
I wouldn't worry about those numbers at all. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to get them all super close to each other. If the car is running good, leave them alone.
 

pmag

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Location
Braga-Portugal
TDI
Ibiza
I wouldn't worry about those numbers at all. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to get them all super close to each other. If the car is running good, leave them alone.

Yes, I think the same.
The performance is excellent, but I would like to know the reason for this values.

Other strange value is the instant consumption on CB, at idle is 1.1L/h and normal should be 0,7L/h.
 

asap03

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Location
Romania/Europe
TDI
G5 1.9TDI PD 2007 BXE
What is your Torsion Value in group 004? I have tried several positions, at +4 torsion value I had 0.9 l/h and now, at -2 torsion value I have 0.5 l/h. Big difference. Also IQ changes when setting the camshaft timing (I refer to PD engines)
 
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pmag

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Location
Braga-Portugal
TDI
Ibiza
What is your Torsion Value in group 004? I have tried several positions, at +4 torsion value I had 0.9 l/h and now, at -2 torsion value I have 0.5 l/h. Big difference. Also IQ changes when setting the camshaft timing (I refer to PD engines)

Hi!!

I didn't understand what value you refer with "torsion value". Can you explain?

The camshaft is in correct position!



Thanks
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Hi!!

I didn't understand what value you refer with "torsion value". Can you explain?

The camshaft is in correct position!



Thanks

For some reason VAG calls the relationship between the crank sensor (CKP) and cam sensor (CMP) "torsion". It is also known as "kurbelwinkel" which is German for "crank angle" (crankshaft is 'kurbelwelle' and angle is 'winkel' in German). Or just 'KW' for short, not to be confused with 'Kw' which is 'Kilowatt'.

This value is found in the data blocks of the engine controller. It should be "0.00" but some folks have found a slight tweak one way or the other may have some benefits or disadvantages.

However in your case, the torsion won't have anything to do with one injector's fuel delivery being signifigantly different than the others, as all the injectors work of the same camshaft.
 
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pmag

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Location
Braga-Portugal
TDI
Ibiza
For some reason VAG calls the relationship between the crank sensor (CKP) and cam sensor (CMP) "torsion". It is also known as "kurbelwinkel" which is German for "crank angle" (crankshaft is 'kurbelwelle' and angle is 'winkel' in German). Or just 'KW' for short, not to be confused with 'Kw' which is 'Kilowatt'.

This value is found in the data blocks of the engine controller. It should be "0.00" but some folks have found a slight tweak one way or the other may have some benefits or disadvantages.

However in your case, the torsion won't have anything to do with one injector's fuel delivery being signifigantly different than the others, as all the injectors work of the same camshaft.

Yes, I understand.

I will tune again the injectors to 180º back and will see the result.
Than I will not worry more about this, everything in the car is OK!!


Thanks
Pedro
 

eyyopomps

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Location
Daytona Beach, FL
TDI
2014 Audi Q5, 1998 MK3 Jetta, 2010 MK6 Golf, 2000 Jetta TDI
injector readings

hey guys,

so I got a mk3 and after I did the timing belt I am having a heck of a time getting it to start cold. after recjhecking the timing then redoing injector timing I noticed this. no reading from injector 4.. it seems to idle perfectly smooth could this really be my cold start issue?? im really scratching my head at this one... hmm wont let me post the pic, injector 1 0.24, 2 0.00 3 0.16 and just blank for 4. any ideas?
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
hey guys,
so I got a mk3 and after I did the timing belt I am having a heck of a time getting it to start cold. after recjhecking the timing then redoing injector timing I noticed this. no reading from injector 4.. it seems to idle perfectly smooth could this really be my cold start issue?? im really scratching my head at this one... hmm wont let me post the pic, injector 1 0.24, 2 0.00 3 0.16 and just blank for 4. any ideas?
Timing belt on the pump is off by one tooth...

Cam and crank are more than likely correct.

If you go to adjust the timing, you will find that you don't have enough range to make the timing correct, again you are off by one tooth on the belt/pulley causing it to run too far reatarded.

Common mistake on all MK-3 TDI's
 

eyyopomps

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Location
Daytona Beach, FL
TDI
2014 Audi Q5, 1998 MK3 Jetta, 2010 MK6 Golf, 2000 Jetta TDI
Timing belt on the pump is off by one tooth...
Cam and crank are more than likely correct.
If you go to adjust the timing, you will find that you don't have enough range to make the timing correct, again you are off by one tooth on the belt/pulley causing it to run too far reatarded.
Common mistake on all MK-3 TDI's
But I'm dead on with injector timing in vcds according to the graph. which way would I jump it a tooth?
 
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cruiserboy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Location
Paris, France
TDI
´97 Golf MK3 TDI AFN
Mk3s with MSA15 ECUs don't have any value for block 4 in group 013.
But the sum of all injector values must be equal to 0 so not such an headache to figure it out.

Fuel Balancing Control is not just about injectors. It is combustion and how each cylinder affects engine speed.
 

eyyopomps

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Location
Daytona Beach, FL
TDI
2014 Audi Q5, 1998 MK3 Jetta, 2010 MK6 Golf, 2000 Jetta TDI
Mk3s with MSA15 ECUs don't have any value for block 4 in group 013.
But the sum of all injector values must be equal to 0 so not such an headache to figure it out.
Fuel Balancing Control is not just about injectors. It is combustion and how each cylinder affects engine speed.

Would there be any other parameters you suggest checking in VCDS to help find this cold start issue? I keep getting routed back to glow plugs which I definitely know are an issue I have to get to, but when I'm saying cold start I really mean like the first start in a few hours in warm temps outside, so would glow plugs really be my issue given the outside temp being 60-70F (15-21C)?
 

wezz44

New member
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Location
ireland
TDI
audi b6 quattro
audi avf quattro pd130 nightmare

could anyone please help
I have changed
injector 1
lift pump
tandem pump
turbo/actuator
boost pressure sensor
fuel lines checked
filter changed x 3

no codes present apart from cylinder 1 misfire detected before injector and seals changed
egr is blanked off which might explain some strange readings..
this all happened after saddle tank ran dry because if bad fuel gauge..
pulling my hair out big time
could anyone put me out of my misery please


Address 01: Engine (038 906 019 JT)

18:13:21
882 /min Engine speed 790-870
8.5 mg/str Injected quantity 3.0-9.0
6.6°KW Spec. Inj. duration 3-8 °Ck.
20.7°C Coolant temp 80-110°C
290.0 mg/str MAF (specified) 230-310
455.7 mg/str MAF (actual) 210-350
14.4°C Fuel Temp ~Amb.Temp.*C
2.49 mg/str Cyl 1 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
-2.12 mg/str Cyl 2 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
-0.56 mg/str Cyl 3 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
0.14 mg/str Cyl 4 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
8.5 mg/str Inj Qty (actual)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 01: Engine (038 906 019 JT)

18:17:36
1533 /min Engine speed 790-870
8.8 mg/str Injected quantity 3.0-9.0
5.6°KW Spec. Inj. duration 3-8 °Ck.
38.7°C Coolant temp 80-110°C
275.0 mg/str MAF (specified) 230-310
568.4 mg/str MAF (actual) 210-350
26.1°C Fuel Temp ~Amb.Temp.*C
2.99 mg/str Cyl 1 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
-2.45 mg/str Cyl 2 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
-2.16 mg/str Cyl 3 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
1.51 mg/str Cyl 4 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
8.8 mg/str Inj Qty (actual)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 01: Engine (038 906 019 JT)

18:17:41
1575 /min Engine speed 790-870
8.8 mg/str Injected quantity 3.0-9.0
6.6°KW Spec. Inj. duration 3-8 °Ck.
39.6°C Coolant temp 80-110°C
275.0 mg/str MAF (specified) 230-310
602.7 mg/str MAF (actual) 210-350
27.0°C Fuel Temp ~Amb.Temp.*C
2.99 mg/str Cyl 1 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
-3.01 mg/str Cyl 2 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
-1.93 mg/str Cyl 3 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
1.88 mg/str Cyl 4 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
8.8 mg/str Inj Qty (actual)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 01: Engine (038 906 019 JT)

18:21:41
1911 /min Engine speed 790-870
10.2 mg/str Injected quantity 3.0-9.0
6.1°KW Spec. Inj. duration 3-8 °Ck.
55.8°C Coolant temp 80-110°C
290.0 mg/str MAF (specified) 230-310
710.5 mg/str MAF (actual) 210-350
41.4°C Fuel Temp ~Amb.Temp.*C
2.49 mg/str Cyl 1 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
-2.09 mg/str Cyl 2 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
-1.65 mg/str Cyl 3 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
1.27 mg/str Cyl 4 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
10.2 mg/str Inj Qty (actual)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 01: Engine (038 906 019 JT)

18:21:53
882 /min Engine speed 790-870
5.8 mg/str Injected quantity 3.0-9.0
7.1°KW Spec. Inj. duration 3-8 °Ck.
57.6°C Coolant temp 80-110°C
250.0 mg/str MAF (specified) 230-310
465.5 mg/str MAF (actual) 210-350
43.2°C Fuel Temp ~Amb.Temp.*C
1.27 mg/str Cyl 1 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
-1.84 mg/str Cyl 2 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
-0.75 mg/str Cyl 3 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
1.29 mg/str Cyl 4 -2.8 to +2.8 mg/H
6.0 mg/str Inj Qty (actual)
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
hey guys,
so I got a mk3 and after I did the timing belt I am having a heck of a time getting it to start cold. after recjhecking the timing then redoing injector timing I noticed this. no reading from injector 4.. it seems to idle perfectly smooth could this really be my cold start issue?? im really scratching my head at this one... hmm wont let me post the pic, injector 1 0.24, 2 0.00 3 0.16 and just blank for 4. any ideas?

There is a bit of misunderstanding here on a few points.

First, I am going to guess this engine has a 'few miles' on it. We have often see the cam plate in the injection pump wear to the point you have to 'skip a tooth' on the timing to get the pump to hit correctly. It's kinda a pain, but that is not so unusual.

If I get my mind on this right, you have to jump the timing belt one tooth clockwise on the pump. Otherwise, try advancing the pump (move counter-clockwise to advance timing) to see if it starts easier.

The second question about injector balance is this... Sorry Cruiserboy, what you say is not exactly correct... The program for the MK3 ECU does not have a read for the #3 injector. It figures the #3 injector as a default '0'. So, if you input the figure of 0.00 mg/str for the #3 injector, then the other three are really quite close. That is assuming they are hitting any where near the pressures they are supposed to; 180/ 280 bar. We think even the older Mk3's do better if the pressure is raised to the same as the Mk4; 220/300 bar. We feel they atomize fuel better.

Hope that helps. If you need some additional help, let us know.
 
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Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Wezz44,

What injector did you replace #1 with? A used one? Good luck with that... A new one?

If you installed a new injector and it's still reading way off, I am going to guess it wasn't the injector to begin with. We get positive reads like that when the cam is worn out.

What happens when a cam wears out, as the PD's are apt to do, is the valve lift shortens and sometimes, dramatically. If you lose .040-.060" in lift, you will begin to notice the loss of power and smoke. Your injector's limit to modify fueling is reached at +2.99. You are close to that number on cylinder 1. Above that 2.99 number, you get a injector misfire read.

Remove the valve cover and look at the cam. Move the cam so that the valve lobe closest to the timing belt is UP. If you find that the exhaust valve cam lobe is very sharp at the lobe's peak, you have a minimum of .015" wear. It's probably much worse, if I don't miss my guess. You may also notice that there is galling on the base circle of the cam. These wear marks are the dead giveaway you have a badly worn cam.

We are quite well known for the cam kit we have produced and it's long-term success. If you have any further questions what to look for, and repair options, feel free to call or email.

Hm... I noticed something else. I saw the first set of address 1 measurements showed the water temp at 39c and the last set were at around 57c. Is that as warm as it gets? Your engine should run at 90-95c. I also noticed that the injectors, cold, are much worse and improve as the engine warms. Fuel temps were also quite low and that will also affect injector performance.

I'd still inspect the cam. You might get a fully warmed up engine temp and fuel temp, as that does alter the advance timing of your injectors.
 
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wezz44

New member
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Location
ireland
TDI
audi b6 quattro
Hi Frank
thanks for your reply
I have now changed all injectors from a low milage
pd130 and all reading were fine except for number 3 this time ..
iv replaced and swaped injector 3 twice now and each time under load
it goes straight to -3.01 and all others are compensating for it .
there is 425km on the car so I'm starting to think its valves or rings..
id probably be better off just getting a new low milage engine instead of all that work.
I will try post readings up
thanks again
 
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