Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

GraniteRooster · Mar 4, 2011

eb2143 said:
Oh, it's been said all right. Good luck finding it though

Getting deep in here, isn't it!!

VeeDubTDI · Mar 4, 2011

Right on. Figured i'd reiterate it just for good measure. People seem to be getting confused on the operating parameters of the system.

TDI Koche · Mar 7, 2011

740GLE said:
.......I've also noticed that longer I run, at one time, in "the magic weather", the more likely I'll notice the issue after temps rise in the afternoon.

My daily drive is 50+ miles. I too have noticed most of my issues durring "magic weather" time. Usually right before the snow starts to fall or while it is falling.

VeeDubTDI said:
I started reading the common-rail Self Study about an hour ago. Figured I'd toss out some info that I haven't seen in this thread yet...

High pressure EGR takes place at low engine speeds and low engine loads. That is shifted to the low pressure EGR system as engine speeds and loads increase.

So what does this mean? Some people are suggesting that higher engine loads will reduce condensation and freezing in the intercooler due to increased IATs from the production of boost by the turbocharger. While the higher IAT part is true, the higher loads also result in more LP EGR, which results in more humid air being introduced into the intake system. Under certain cold weather conditions, this could exacerbate the condensation/freezing problem.

I live about 5 miles from the highway on my commute to work. This five miles has a few large inclines as I am in a hilly area in the Illinois River Valley. When it's very cold out, my car isn't at stable operating temp for up to 10 miles. 5 of which is on the highway at 75 mph.

I am still waiting to find out if I'm getting a new engine from VW or not. The dealer has had my car for one month now and the VW Regional Rep. Ed Pool (sp?) has yet to make a decision. I am really getting frustrated. If they don't fix this, I will contact an attorney. I have contacted customer care multiple times now. They have gotten back to me right away, each time, only to tell me that Ed is working on it. I think my dealer is going to be upset if they don't get reimbursed for the 8000+ miles I've put on their brand new loner cars to date.

740GLE · Mar 7, 2011

OMG, if I didn't have my car for a month while they made a warranty work, I swear the rental would have bald tires, no suspension, and a amazing amount of miles.

If it's a rental go mental!!!!

MonsterTDI09 · Mar 7, 2011

TDI Koche said:
My daily drive is 50+ miles. I too have noticed most of my issues durring "magic weather" time. Usually right before the snow starts to fall or while it is falling.

I live about 5 miles from the highway on my commute to work. This five miles has a few large inclines as I am in a hilly area in the Illinois River Valley. When it's very cold out, my car isn't at stable operating temp for up to 10 miles. 5 of which is on the highway at 75 mph.

I am still waiting to find out if I'm getting a new engine from VW or not. The dealer has had my car for one month now and the VW Regional Rep. Ed Pool (sp?) has yet to make a decision. I am really getting frustrated. If they don't fix this, I will contact an attorney. I have contacted customer care multiple times now. They have gotten back to me right away, each time, only to tell me that Ed is working on it. I think my dealer is going to be upset if they don't get reimbursed for the 8000+ miles I've put on their brand new loner cars to date.[/QUOT

The time is now to contact an attorney.Is it under warranty? There is no reason to wait this long.If they ok the job now you are still looking another month to get your car back.I would call that Rep up every day.

TDI Koche · Mar 7, 2011

No, the car is out of drive-train warranty. I have just under 70k on it and I will have had it 2 years in June. My problems have been noted many times(7-10) at the dealer in the last 2 winters. I have had to have the car towed in 3 times that I remember. It's all documented. I think if VW wasn't going to fix it I would have heard by now, but we'll see. You all will know as soon as I find out.

eddif · Mar 8, 2011

devilyellow said:
Wow, still no fix.

I'm getting close to the next service appointment on both the JSW and 'egg. I was hoping there would be a fix by now

I am going to try again.

No. We do not have a fix because we are fussing about just what causes the problem, whose fault it is, who has the right description of the problem: rather than doing what can work to help for right now.

Hey I tend to want to know the causes too. I tend to try and make a list of the bad things that happen. I also have to watch myself to make sure I do not win a technical argument and lose the social benefit of the club.

Maybe a partial block of the intercooler would work for most? Not enough air blockage to cause problems in the spring, but enough to help for now? Maybe a manual drain for now?

If the intake gets a slug of water, you have waited too late to do something to help.

eddif

VeeDubTDI · Mar 8, 2011

You want to fix the problem? Block the intercooler during cold weather. Done.

PaulGiz · Mar 8, 2011

VeeDubTDI said:
You want to fix the problem? Block the intercooler during cold weather. Done.

Never mind

MayorDJQ · Mar 8, 2011

Here's what my tube looked like Saturday with ~9,800 miles since September:

[/IMG]

Temps were in the mid-40s and only a few drops of liquid water came out, so I'm going to continue with my current driving habits and will check the hose periodically.

Although, I hate to say this....on reinstall I must not have seated the seal/clamp correctly and it popped off. I was 30 miles from home and it was raining, so I didn't want to continue driving. I called VW Roadside and had them tow me to the dealer 3 miles from home. $49 and a wash later, I had my car back. A friend let me borrow his '00 Chevy (Geo) Metro. I felt like I was driving a lighter, cheaper Diesel Rabbit. Getting back in the Golf was quite a change when I picked it up today.

740GLE · Mar 9, 2011

thats still a fair amount of build up for less than 10K miles. The crap in there shouldn't be green/foamy what so every, that show's indication of substantial water mixed in there.

TDI Koche · Mar 10, 2011

For those of you following my saga-

I got a call from my dealer this morning. The service manager informed me that VWoA wants ME to authorize a tear down before they will proceed. My question - What are they looking for? It's a fact that my car ingested water that shattered the glow plug so I don't know what they are looking for. Any ideas, except that they're looking for a way to get out of paying for a new engine.

MayorDJQ · Mar 10, 2011

Have they removed the head yet? They'll probably want to look for damage to the piston/cylinder by the GP pieces. Hydro-locking could cause ring damage at a minimum and a bent rod(s) if severe enough.

turboboost1 · Mar 10, 2011

Don't understand where you U-Boat commanders are getting all this water. I live in NH.. Drive in below zero weather, park in garage, so according to all the posts here, I would be forming ice in the intercooler, which would melt when parked in my garage, which never gets below 40F, which would melt and hydrolock my engine. First off, to do that, the inlet hose is about 2" diameter, and it would have to be full for the engine to suck a slug of water. Also don't know where this water is coming from. After reading all these posts, with 13,000 miles on my TDI, I opened up the discharge of my intercooler.. Guess what.. NO WATER.. If it's coming from the EGR, when I start my car, I don't let it warm up.. I start driving immediately. It warm up quickly. I think that prevents moisture from the EGR more than anything.

TDI Koche · Mar 10, 2011

MayorDJQ said:
Have they removed the head yet? They'll probably want to look for damage to the piston/cylinder by the GP pieces. Hydro-locking could cause ring damage at a minimum and a bent rod(s) if severe enough.

They have not removed it yet.

I talked to the dealer again and the VW field engineer says it sounds like a bent rod. Chances are it's from the same cylinder that has the shattered glow plug.

I have heard from my acquaintance at VW(that I unfortunately cannot name) and he said that they have replaced multiple engines due to this issue.

TwoTone · Mar 10, 2011

turboboost1 said:
Don't understand where you U-Boat commanders are getting all this water. I live in NH.. Drive in below zero weather, park in garage, so according to all the posts here, I would be forming ice in the intercooler, which would melt when parked in my garage, which never gets below 40F, which would melt and hydrolock my engine. First off, to do that, the inlet hose is about 2" diameter, and it would have to be full for the engine to suck a slug of water. Also don't know where this water is coming from. After reading all these posts, with 13,000 miles on my TDI, I opened up the discharge of my intercooler.. Guess what.. NO WATER.. If it's coming from the EGR, when I start my car, I don't let it warm up.. I start driving immediately. It warm up quickly. I think that prevents moisture from the EGR more than anything.

Here yea go

http://picasaweb.google.com/plapinta/2009TDI?feat=directlink#

MayorDJQ · Mar 10, 2011

turboboost1 said:
Don't understand where you U-Boat commanders are getting all this water. I live in NH.. Drive in below zero weather, park in garage, so according to all the posts here, I would be forming ice in the intercooler, which would melt when parked in my garage, which never gets below 40F, which would melt and hydrolock my engine. First off, to do that, the inlet hose is about 2" diameter, and it would have to be full for the engine to suck a slug of water. Also don't know where this water is coming from. After reading all these posts, with 13,000 miles on my TDI, I opened up the discharge of my intercooler.. Guess what.. NO WATER.. If it's coming from the EGR, when I start my car, I don't let it warm up.. I start driving immediately. It warm up quickly. I think that prevents moisture from the EGR more than anything.

I realize you're joining this discussion after nearly 50 pages and 800 posts....but did you bother to read any of them?

The water is coming from the Low-Pressure EGR....we determined that several hundred posts ago. Some get more than others. It's happened to people in varying regions of the country. Driving style affects it, so whatever you're doing seems to be working for you, unless you're BSing us about your findings.

Did you remove the boost pipe on the passenger side of the engine? When I removed mine, I only got a few drops of water, but if you saw my picture from 10 or so posts ago, there was plenty of slime. I also get in, start it, and drive. The tube on the driver's side was perfectly clean and dry.

TDI Koche · Mar 10, 2011

Wow, just got a call from my dealer. They are so convinced that the cause was water ingestion that they are going to cover the tear down for me, even if VWoA ends up not covering it for some reason. Per our first conversion this morning it would have been $1200.00 out of my pocket.

My JSW is scheduled for tear down on Tuesday.

n1das · Mar 10, 2011

MayorDJQ said:
The water is coming from the Low-Pressure EGR....we determined that several hundred posts ago. Some get more than others. It's happened to people in varying regions of the country. Driving style affects it, so whatever you're doing seems to be working for you, unless you're BSing us about your findings.

I keep thinking there's something more going on here. Some CR TDIs have had iced up ICs under the right conditions and many others have not under nearly identical conditions. I've also hauled ar$e for long periods in subzero temps without problems. I bought some foam pipe insulation to block off the IC but never bothered to install it. I drive my JSW like I stole it and don't baby it at all, just like GraniteRooster does when I asked about this early on in the thread.

I'm wondering of some CR TDIs have EGR valves that are leaking or stuck open, causing the LP-EGR to be active all the time and contributing more steamy exhaust into the IC.

I'm also wondering about the amount of oil found in the IC. The engine has an elaborate CCV system to help catch and condense as much oil vapors as possible so I don't think the CCV system is a big contributor. Some oil also gets past the turbo seals which leak a little oil by design. Some might be more leaky than others. Also, what oil y'all been using? I asked about oil used earlier in the thread in case the particular 507.00 oil used might make a difference.

Just thinkin' out loud here.

740GLE · Mar 11, 2011

I'd ask the dealer "why are you asking me permission to tear down the engine, it's under warranty it's your engine do with it as you see, i'm not paying a penny more for it." then i'd continue to beat the crap out of the rental car to an inch of it's life.

TDI Koche · Mar 11, 2011

740GLE said:
I'd ask the dealer "why are you asking me permission to tear down the engine, it's under warranty it's your engine do with it as you see, i'm not paying a penny more for it." then i'd continue to beat the crap out of the rental car to an inch of it's life.

The vehicle has just under 70k on it. Not under factory warranty, but I surely have had a history of issues with the water in the IC. Also, my dealer has been great! I know they're fighting for me, it's been apparent speaking with VW customer service. It's the VW Field Service Engineer that doesn't want to cover tear down.... yet.

It' doesn't matter to me at this point, my dealer is covering the tear down with or without VWoA's help.

Phreadd · Mar 15, 2011

Hello all,

First post here; been lurking for a little while, trying to get myself cought up on the jargon that goes with my new-to-me 2010 Golf TDi.

And what happened last week ? Pretty much the same story as every one else in this thread (though not nearly as bad as some). Car stalled on start-up in the mild afternoon weather. Tried it 5-6 times before I could get it to run. In the future, I will NOT be trying to get it to run and drive home AT ALL. I'm going to use that warranty coverage for all it's worth.

I'm hoping that if enough cases are documented, costing enough money, we can get a fix for this.

I live in Nova Scotia, Canada, with those "magic conditions" for a solid five months of the year... It would be great if I could rely on my car to start when I need it to.

Also, a terrific amount of excellent information on this board !

740GLE · Mar 15, 2011

Good luck with the dealer. They'll claim fuel is gelled, or some stupid answer, solution keep cranking her over and she'll come back to life, no problem. If you guide them with all the knowledge here you might have a little more luck, but don't expect a fix.

BTW drove 50 miles this morning at 22F, very forsty out. I imagine the temps this afternoon will be some where in the mid 30s. I'll be expecting it.

GraniteRooster · Mar 15, 2011

740GLE said:
BTW drove 50 miles this morning at 22F, very forsty out. I imagine the temps this afternoon will be some where in the mid 30s. I'll be expecting it.

Funny you should mention that - my car just had a stumble-o-rama on startup during lunch hour

quietpeen · Mar 15, 2011

740GLE said:
Good luck with the dealer. They'll claim fuel is gelled, or some stupid answer, solution keep cranking her over and she'll come back to life, no problem. If you guide them with all the knowledge here you might have a little more luck, but don't expect a fix.

BTW drove 50 miles this morning at 22F, very forsty out. I imagine the temps this afternoon will be some where in the mid 30s. I'll be expecting it.

yea, i drive in conditions like that almost daily now...its supposed to get in the 40's today. Every day I expect for this to happen and am pleasantly surprised when it doesn't.

When Is VW releasing their supposed fix of this. I don't have the time to take it to the dealer for them to tell me there is nothing they can do about it.

740GLE · Mar 16, 2011

When I left work last night, fired up and idled fine for 10 seconds, then when I tried to pull away, she wouldn't get above 2K in first, kept kinda stumbling, i shifted into second, and same thing again, stumble at 2K, i then kept the revs lower and putted away from the parking lot. I'd say 2 minutes in second everything was back to normal and I was able to resume normal driving. I then drove 50 miles back home with a few run ups to 3500rpm and everything was good.

n1das · Mar 16, 2011

GraniteRooster said:
Funny you should mention that - my car just had a stumble-o-rama on startup during lunch hour

What temp & humidity did this happen at? What were the conditions like before you parked it?

I keep thinking there's something else going on that's not right in your car and the few others who have had problems. Maybe due to stuck open or leaking EGR valve(s) causing the LP-EGR to be active all the time? This is what prompted my earlier post above.

RebelTDI · Mar 16, 2011

740GLE said:
When I left work last night, fired up and idled fine for 10 seconds, then when I tried to pull away, she wouldn't get above 2K in first, kept kinda stumbling, i shifted into second, and same thing again, stumble at 2K, i then kept the revs lower and putted away from the parking lot. I'd say 2 minutes in second everything was back to normal and I was able to resume normal driving. I then drove 50 miles back home with a few run ups to 3500rpm and everything was good.

The IC issue is bizarre, and seems sporadic. I'm in the Boston area and have not experienced this stumbling. The temps are a bit warmer than NH, but our temps have been bouncing above and below freezing lately with a fair amount of rain. I checked my intercooler hose once late last Fall. Got a couple tablespoons of the greenish fluid from the Jetta, less than that from the Golf.

740GLE · Mar 16, 2011

n1das said:
What temp & humidity did this happen at? What were the conditions like before you parked it?

I don't think the temp and humidity was very different across S. NH yesterday morning. But when I cranked mine over at the end of the day it was 45ish. I travel from Manchester area to the seacoast.

I'd think a stuck open EGR (LP or HP) would lead to big issues that would toss a MIL for sure.

boomvang · Mar 18, 2011

I changed the oil today @10,000 miles. I was on tenderhooks wondering if I had the same issues as others have reported, although the car has never exhibited any symptoms. I'm happy to report that despite driving the car thoughout this particularly horrible winter I did not find one drop of anything in the intercooler hose.

Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

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