Must brake discs be replaced every time along w/ pads?

Folks,

Just that. The dealership says the pads are getting thin in front and especially rear. They want about $900 because on 'these new cars' the rotors must be replaced each and every time the pars are replaced, that 'it is a safety issue' to turn rotors....

Sanity check here. If the rotors are undamaged, why replace them? I have replaced countless pads for myself and for neighbours & family who got similar estimates... and replaced many a rotor damaged by grinding a pad with no material left on it... or by rust...

Our 2009 TDI Sportwagen just had its 40,000 mile service and fresh off warranty... since I have no list of what was actually done, I feel that I paid $500 for an estimate to have an additional $2000 of work done.

Thoughts? Just get the pads replaced locally? Is there anything behind this notion, other than increasing income for the dealership?

There's no listing for Vermont in the Trusted TDI Mechanics by State thread... will post any of my experiences here.

Cheers,
Robert

Robert,

It seems that in the last 20 years, rotors have gotten either softer or thinner or redesigned such that they don't seem to last past one set of wear. If you try to resurface them, the result is that the rotors warp resulting in a pulsating feel when you brake. Not a safety issue IMO, but really annoying.

This has been the deal with my cars since about 2000. In fact, you can buy low quality rotors that warp almost immediately. And you can get high quality rotors/pads that last long time, go good.

A lot of us here do our own brake service and buy from guys like www.idparts.com and save big on dealer costs. If you have some car experience, doing brakes is not hard

Where in VT are you? There are some guys close in NH (New Boston, Manchester) and there is www.fruitlands.net (airtimeturbo on this forum) that can probably hook you up with someone much less than the dealer.

I always figure that having someone do this is about 2x the cost of the parts. I don't know the cost of parts in your 2009, but you could probably get this done for $300-400 less than the dealer quote.

And unfortunately, I don't think that needing brakes replaced at 40k is out of the ordinary - but an upgrade in quality might get you more miles next time.

Good Luck!

Rotors don't have as much meat on them as the use too. So turning them "can" make them too thin.

However I have never belonged to the "turn rotors with ever pad change" either. If they rotors are not warped why are you turning them??

So my two cents if the rotors are true then slap a set of pads on them and your done. If the rotors are warped then replace them....

saabmaven - I also live in Vermont. Typically I do my own brakes and always replace the rotors. The cost differential between new rotors and having the old ones turned is often so small that I just buy new. And turning rotors takes a while, drop them off, come by tomorrow, etc. There is a TDI mechanic in Waitsfield, although for brakes any competent shop would do. Or just call up ID parts and have them send you everything you need. Looks like I could do brakes on mine for under $250.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply and info, as well as the perspective on quality of materials. As I'm new to VW, never dealt with a new car before, I have to leave all my assumptions behind... Agreed, 40k out of a set of pads is pushing it though.

We're in Ripton, which is in central VT, in the mountains. I've driven and rallied SAABs for about 25 years, but the TDI changed all that.

Cheers,
Robert

MikeS_18 said:

It seems that in the last 20 years, rotors have gotten either softer or thinner or redesigned such that they don't seem to last past one set of wear. If you try to resurface them, the result is that the rotors warp resulting in a pulsating feel when you brake. Not a safety issue IMO, but really annoying.

...

Where in VT are you? There are some guys close in NH (New Boston, Manchester) and there is www.fruitlands.net (airtimeturbo on this forum) that can probably hook you up with someone much less than the dealer.

...

I don't think that needing brakes replaced at 40k is out of the ordinary - but an upgrade in quality might get you more miles next time.

Good Luck!

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Hello Mr. Glowplug !

Thanks for the info. $250 is perfectly reasonable for the parts... and I'm in Ripton which is close to Waitsfield.

Are the rears self-adjusting, or do I need to do something special? I'm asking because the handbrake only locks one rear wheel...

Cheers,
Robert

Mr. Glowplug said:

saabmaven - I also live in Vermont. Typically I do my own brakes and always replace the rotors. The cost differential between new rotors and having the old ones turned is often so small that I just buy new. And turning rotors takes a while, drop them off, come by tomorrow, etc. There is a TDI mechanic in Waitsfield, although for brakes any competent shop would do. Or just call up ID parts and have them send you everything you need. Looks like I could do brakes on mine for under $250.

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I would have someone knowledgeable determine if you really need the pads (and rotors) replaced. My experience is that they last a LONG time, provided you are gentle on them. I have 140,000 miles on my car and I am on the original pads and rotors, front and rear and I have 40-50% of the friction material left. And I live right outside of Washington, DC and drive in rush hour (stop-and go) traffic 5 days a week.

Also, if you replace the rotors anyway, who cares if your pad backing goes into the rotor telling you its time to replace the brakes. If it does happen, just be prepared to replace the pads/rotors that day.

--Nate

http://www.vtvegcar.com/

That's the guy in Waitsfield. You're right down the road from me, I live in Bristol.

I haven't done brakes on mine or your model, but all other VWs I've worked on are self-adjusting. They make a special tool to push and turn the rear piston back into the caliper to make room for fresh pads, but w/ a little patience, use of a c-clamp and a big set of pliers will accomplish the same thing (being careful to not tear the rubber boot around the piston). Worked on the 01 Beetle we had.

Hello HukeIT,

That's exactly the question that I asked the dealer.... this is my first experience with buying a new car then trying to get it serviced. You never get to speak directly with the mechanic, you just get someone behind a computer who invariably claims that whatever the computer says is so.

The question deserves a good answer. The estimates that I've been getting are driving the total cost per mile way beyond the gas-guzzlers...

For the record I have never had a rotor turned (drums yes)...

Cheers,
Robert

NukeIT said:

Rotors don't have as much meat on them as the use too. So turning them "can" make them too thin.
However I have never belonged to the "turn rotors with ever pad change" either. If they rotors are not warped why are you turning them??
So my two cents if the rotors are true then slap a set of pads on them and your done. If the rotors are warped then replace them....

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NukeIT said:

Rotors don't have as much meat on them as the use too. So turning them "can" make them too thin.

Click to expand...

This is amazingly false. Rotors didn't magically get thinner. They have been the same thickness in like size cars for 30 years.

What HAS changed is "small" cars have gotten heavier due to added features and safety regs. That weight gain is hard on brakes.

Pad compounds have come up to speed in the past 20 years as braking distances have dropped. There are trades offs to that as well. Aggressive pads by necessity are harder on the rotors.

To the O.P.

Factory pads and rotors for the rear of a JSW are about $200 from the dealer. Plus you WILL need a 14mm triple square bit to get the carrier bracket off. And they car be a bastard.

jasonTDI said:

This is amazingly false. Rotors didn't magically get thinner. They have been the same thickness in like size cars for 30 years.

What HAS changed is "small" cars have gotten heavier due to added features and safety regs. That weight gain is hard on brakes.

Pad compounds have come up to speed in the past 20 years as braking distances have dropped. There are trades offs to that as well. Aggressive pads by necessity are harder on the rotors.

To the O.P.

Factory pads and rotors for the rear of a JSW are about $200 from the dealer. Plus you WILL need a 14mm triple square bit to get the carrier bracket off. And they car be a bastard.

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Who said anything about magic?? While I can only hypotheses on the reason for the change, (since I am not a design engineer in the auto industry) in my experience I have observed differently then you have.

And yes I do agree with you on the fact that pad compounds have changed over the years. And these new metallic compounds being harder on the rotors therefore wearing them beyond their service limits.

However I still do not believe that a rotor that is still true, and within it's service tolerance thickness limits needs to be replaced with every set of pads.

i have changed pads several times without turning or changing the rotors.

I agree, if the rotor is not warped or damaged or deeply grooved, no need to turn or replace.

VWBeamer said:

i have changed pads several times without turning or changing the rotors.

I agree, if the rotor is not warped or damaged or deeply grooved, no need to turn or replace.

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Second that. If brakes work smoothly with the old pads, then rotor is not warped. So if no warp and no heavy wear, just put new pads on and go.

Rotors that don't warp are good rotors. When you buy new ones, there is a chance they will warp. Some cheap crap being sold out there. Stick with ones that work smooth.

On my 2000 Jetta, I had the front rotors turned (resurfaced)........then later installed a set of used rotors that I had turned. Then, I installed a new set of Zimmer rotors and eventually had to have one of them slightly trued-up to get rid of a steering wheel shake during breaking........smooth stops now (all that over almost 300k miles).

I'm still on the OE rear rotors. However, I did purchase new ones when I purchased the front set.

Resurfacing rotors is okay as long as the end result is within the specifications. Sure, after being resurfaced their life will not be as long as a set of new ones. I have access to a mill, so I squeeze all the life out of them that I can.

Thanks, folks,for being kind to a newbie !

Excellent info in this thread, especially the quote below.

'Human Nature at large' does not seem to know what 'brake service' means... it can mean anything from replacing callipers & hoses (I even replaced a worn pedal once) to a simple preventative brake pad change. It should be as simply stated as here.

Ski in NC said:

Rotors that don't warp are good rotors. When you buy new ones, there is a chance they will warp. Some cheap crap being sold out there. Stick with ones that work smooth.

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What does the Genuine Official VW Service Manual say for that car?

If it doesn't say replace the rotors that dealer is committing fraud and you should file complaints with whatever agencies oversee repair shops in Vermont.

You were smart enough to come here. Help out all those people who aren't and rely on the dealer for honest work.

The genuine official VW repair manual will tell you to measure the thickness of the rotors.

They are cheap. Why the drama?

Bill

I'm running Centric rotors and Hawk pads on the rear. Great combination IMO. I changed both when the pads went south since they were cheap and no worries.

One thing to point out to the thread. The OP doesn't seem to state manual or auto tranny. My father on his auto 09 sportwagon got about 95K miles out of his brakes. Brother about 120K on his manual 05 jetta wagon (first 60K before he owned unknown past). My car is at 120K and brakes look great yet. I don't even have rust on mine but they don't use salt in WY where we came from. Brothers car was flaking rust off and pads weren't making full contact.

Between those two things since I am very gental on the brakes I might reuse mine but the cost isn't that great per mile to just replace either. Brother couldn't reuse his with the strange wear on the rotors he had.

Another note the Jason stated. My Golf is basically just the rabbit 4 generations latter only the Golf is double the weight. There is a lot of weight to these cars compared to the tin cans of yester years.

Wow, 40k miles on a set of brakes. I guess I know what to miss when I one day purchase a newer VW. I still have the originals all the way around on the Beetle and they have probably another 50-100k left on them from my inspection.
Generally, I almost always replace everything while I'm in there but that is probably unnecessary. The last set of brakes I did was on my previous car on which the previous owner/mechanic (whomever did the brakes) decided it would be a good idea to snap off the wear indicators on the pads. So my first indication that my pads were shot was a metallic grinding noise on the driver's front.
Even though the drivers front rotor was the only one that had damage from that whole thing I replaced all pads and rotors on the car. I just absolutely hate doing a job over and warping rotors will certainly cause me to have to. When I replace brakes on my girlfriend's car its always everything. The way she drives she can warp a set of rotors on the second set of pads within the first 500 miles.

So I suppose a lot of whether or not your resurfaced rotors will warp is based a bit on how you drive.

Brake life varies greatly depending on the driver and the commute. Saying you'll miss yours lasting a long time is baseless.

I acknowledge there are varying opinions on this, as evidenced above. Here's my 0.02:
(search my past replies if you have time to wade through them all...) summary is, I have direct experience on my 02 Jetta, tried to cheap out and replace only the pads, ended up with headache and do-over. Lesson I (personally) took away was:
I will always replace pad and rotor together.
I will not use turned or re-surfaced rotors.
If the pads wear out, I will replace the rotor with them.
If the rotor warps or becomes a problem, I will replace the pads with it.
I replace brakes by axle- if one side needs it for any reason, other side also gets it.

I acknowledge there are rotor thickness limits, and "technically" it's acceptable to turn the rotor down as long as it stays within limits. But I think it's not just a matter of measuring the thickness- I think it also has something to do with how the turning operation is done, that can affect the rotor's tendency to warp. I also acknowledge that different driving styles can be harder or easier on brakes (from both standpoints of wear and tendency to warp etc.).

That is my 0.02. BTW I also agree with jasonTDI- I replaced my original rotors and pads at about 240K, and they still had some wear left on them at that point. I used (eventually...) good new rotors and pads, and I have every reason to believe that I can get good high miles out of the replacements.

To me the point is the dealer's use of terms like "must be" and "safety issue" to wring a thousand bucks out of a person who may not be equipped to make an informed decision.

Some shops claim you need new CAILPERS everytime, too! Soon it will be--"you need a new air filter---cheaper just to buy a NNEW CAR!!!!!!" E. Caveat Emptor!!!!!

Y2K beetle with 320k miles on the stock rotors!! ....the fronts still look fine but the rears will finally get new rotors next pad change btw I never turn rotors unless warped and then only if "slightly" warped otherwise new rotors!!

Answer:

From the original rotor thickness

Turn rotor ($20)

Subtract the new thickness from original new rotor thickness

You will be just slightly above the wear limit.

But since eyou were a cheap Baaaaasterd, you just blew $20 trying to save another $15 so now you get to pay $40 on top of the $20...Yeah your saving money now!

Is this enough to insure the rotor remains above the wear limit for the life of the NEW pads HE11 F'In NO!

What's the big deal about insuring you have sufficient braking for the life by ALWAYS replacing rotors with pads?

By the way, no rotor made on any German car in the last 30 years has had enough metal to allow the use of one set of pads run to the wear limit to be re-used.

Anytime you replace brakes:
-New Rotors
-New Pads
-Brake Fluid flush (DOT-4)
-New Brake Bleeder caps
-Lube the sliders
-Paint the rotors non-contact surfaces with a gray primer high in zinc to prevent rust in the cooling channels and other non contact areas...its more than aesthetics it keeps things cool and rust free.
-Wire brush the old lug bolts, if there is any thread wear or pitting, replace the bolts!

Indirect but related -

I noticed on our 98 Volvo and some other modern cars that the rotors can be warped by overtorquing the lug nuts. Because the modern day aluminum wheels are son rigid, too much tightening on the lugs can distort the rotors.

Check that the torque on you lug nuts is at factory specs.

fwiw-
I played it out pretty much exactly like Drivbiwire describes in #26 above. At the end, I spent about 2x the $ I would have, if I had just replaced the rotors and pads together on the first attempt. Not to mention time spent on re-visiting the situation.

Agree with #23- many service places especially like to instill anxiety about the brake system to convince the car owner that they need to spend $1000 every 24-36 months, else they can't be sure the car will stop when the pedal is pushed. Again fwiw, within the last month I replaced pads and rotors on my 04 jetta (gas) wagon. It uses same brake parts as the A4 Jettas (and Golfs, I think). I bought upgraded quality pads and rotors from one of the good vendors on here, total cost (before shipping) iirc was about $230. Car didn't happen to need calipers nor pins. Full rotors & pads done by myself, in the neighborhood of $260-$275 if you allow some $ for shipping. [edit] I also flushed the brake fluid and put in DOT4 blue. That added $20 more.

jimbote said:

Y2K beetle with 320k miles on the stock rotors!! ....the fronts still look fine but the rears will finally get new rotors next pad change btw I never turn rotors unless warped and then only if "slightly" warped otherwise new rotors!!

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Just to give you an idea on how driving style can affect brake life, I do mostly highway driving. My first brake job was rears only. New pads and turned the rotors. This was at 112K miles.

My second brake job was again rears only with new pads and rotors. This was at around 370K miles.

My fronts are still, at 432K miles, the originals, but the pad indicator light finally came on about 2K miles ago. Not even a hint of warping or any other problem.

#26 ^...I guess I'm a cheap B@$#@&# then ....but don't tell my rotors that ...using the above calculations my rotors would be completely gone by now + some...I guess the rotor fairy really does exist!!!