Low oil level - worried..

Ski in NC · Nov 30, 2011

^^Agreed. I never understood the "three-zone" dipstick. Way too much fuss. Just keep it in the hashed areas. Or if you are not anal, keep it within the kinks, like I do.

From the photos, there does not seem to be anything sacred about the various zones on the stick.

Cogen Man · Dec 1, 2011

dieseldorf said:
This is fine, you're on the right track. However, the manufacturer recommends checking within 2 -5 minutes of a hot shutdown (certainly not hours later ). Car should be on level surface, too.

n1das said:
10 minutes after shutdown is more than enough time to get an accurate reading. The first bend is the lower of the two bends, right? If so, you're down at the MUST ADD OIL(!) level.

1/2 quart consumption over 10k miles sounds about normal for an ALH engine. If oil consumption has suddenly increased a lot compared to past history with the engine, it may be a sign of leaking turbo seals.

Good luck.

Checking your oil level 10 minutes or 2-5 minutes after hot engine shutdown is nuts. I don't care what the manufacturer says.

Bob_Fout · Dec 1, 2011

Cogen Man said:
Checking your oil level 10 minutes or 2-5 minutes after hot engine shutdown is nuts. I don't care what the manufacturer says.

What's the problem? You are supposed to check your oil level every time you fuel up anyways. VW and others have made that even easier, as I suspect the dipstick markings are calibrated accordingly.

If you check the engine when cold, keep it mind it will read higher than actual.

n1das · Dec 1, 2011

Cogen Man said:
Checking your oil level 10 minutes or 2-5 minutes after hot engine shutdown is nuts. I don't care what the manufacturer says.

Please check your TDI's oil level at 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, and then overnight after you park it and shut it down for the night. Checking it an hour or two after shutdown wouldn't hurt either. Then report back here with your findings.

Good luck.

40X40 · Dec 1, 2011

Cogen Man said:
Checking your oil level 10 minutes or 2-5 minutes after hot engine shutdown is nuts. I don't care what the manufacturer says.

So what if I am on a trip and need to check my oil? Am I supposed to shut down the engine OVERNIGHT before I can get an accurate reading of the oil level??

That would be nuts.

VW has it set up so you can check your oil while filling the fuel tank.

Bill

tditom · Dec 1, 2011

T_D_I_POWER said:
A Zone - Must not add oil

B Zone "Crosshatch Area" - OK

C Zone - Must add oil

Max Level is top of B Zone "Crosshatch Area"

Why do you need to make everything so difficult?

MAX Level would imply that if the oil is above it, then you'd need to remove some to bring it back within specification. Your own illustration shows that the whole area BETWEEN the bottom of the cross-hatched region and the upper bend is an acceptable level. The beginning of upper bend is obviously the actual maximum allowable level- otherwise they wouldn't need the upper bend at all....

Ski in NC · Dec 1, 2011

Why not simply say the cross hatch area is the safe zone, period? What more information than that is provided by identifying regions A and C and the kinks? Never understood this.

Cogen Man · Dec 1, 2011

Bob_Fout said:
What's the problem? You are supposed to check your oil level every time you fuel up anyways. VW and others have made that even easier, as I suspect the dipstick markings are calibrated accordingly.

You could be correct on that.

If you check the engine when cold, keep it mind it will read higher than actual.

And if you check it too soon after shutdown it will read too low.

n1das said:
Please check your TDI's oil level at 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, and then overnight after you park it and shut it down for the night. Checking it an hour or two after shutdown wouldn't hurt either. Then report back here with your findings.

An hour after shutdown is what I believe I said.

Good luck.

40X40 said:
So what if I am on a trip and need to check my oil? Am I supposed to shut down the engine OVERNIGHT before I can get an accurate reading of the oil level??

That would be nuts.

VW has it set up so you can check your oil while filling the fuel tank.

Bill

I didn't say OVERNIGHT. I believe I said 1 hour.

tditom · Dec 1, 2011

Cogen Man said:
And if you check it too soon after shutdown it will read too low....
I didn't say OVERNIGHT. I believe I said 1 hour.

And VW says 2-5 minutes after shutdown. I think the people who designed the vehicle are aware that your oil level will be higher if you let it sit for an hour. As Bill posted above- they set it up so you read it during a fuel stop (the logical time to check the oil). As Bob posted:Their markings are calibrated for the 2-5 minute shutdown, not one hour. So you could be misled by reading it too cold. This could result in deciding to remove oil because it appears to high, or worse yet not noticing that the oil level is too low...

tditom · Dec 1, 2011

Ski in NC said:
Why not simply say the cross hatch area is the safe zone, period? What more information than that is provided by identifying regions A and C and the kinks? Never understood this.

Its probably that German (excessive?) attention to detail.

They didn't want people to freak out and add or remove oil at the wrong time but also wanted to be able to show the precise point at which the designed sump capacity level would display (under the proper circumstances)

I'm sure the dipstick design is to account for variables (car being level, period of time between shutdown and measurement). The bends are the critical areas. I remember reading that it takes approx 0.5L to go from the bottom to the top of the crosshatched area.

Cogen Man · Dec 1, 2011

tditom said:
And VW says 2-5 minutes after shutdown. I think the people who designed the vehicle are aware that your oil level will be higher if you let it sit for an hour. As Bill posted above- they set it up so you read it during a fuel stop (the logical time to check the oil). As Bob posted:Their markings are calibrated for the 2-5 minute shutdown, not overnight. So you could be misled by reading it dead cold. This could result in deciding to remove oil because it appears to high, or worse yet not noticing that the oil level is too low...

It obviously must say that in the USA manual. I've read my Canadian manual many times and I haven't seen anything about checking level 2-5 minutes after shutdown. Maybe they forgot to mention that in the Canadian manual.

tditom · Dec 1, 2011

It sure sounded like you were challenging the manufacturers recommendation and were willing to come up with your own technique.

I'm sure if you're overlooking it then someone will point that out

tditom · Dec 1, 2011

More clarification from VW Technical Bulletin:

Check oil level at each refueling as follows:
–

Place vehicle on level surface.

–

Let engine run until engine operating
temperature is approx. 60C (140F),
(usually when cooling fan cycles at least
once).

–

Switch ignition off, wait at least 3 minutes,
pull out the dipstick and wipe it with a clean
cloth.

–

Reinsert the dipstick; push it all the way in.

– Pull dipstick out again and read level.

thanks, dieseldorf

Cogen Man · Dec 1, 2011

tditom said:
It sure sounded like you were challenging the manufacturers recommendation and were willing to come up with your own technique.

I'm sure if you're overlooking it then someone will point that out

I'm going over the manual again as I type. Still haven't seen it in here anywhere.

Even checking the page numbers to see if any have been torn out.

I have been known to challenge things over the years so I can see where folks would get that idea

I love a good fight/discussion.

whitedog · Dec 1, 2011

Click on it for a bigger picture.

Ski in NC · Dec 1, 2011

^^Ha- That's good.

My favorite dipstick system is on a cat 3408. Engine should be running, at idle, warmed up. Check it with it running!! Makes the most sense, as who cares what the oil level is with engine off. Engine certainly does not care, it's NOT RUNNING. The oil level running is what matters.

Granted, not real practical unless dipstick is shielded from splash, and not practical on a four banger with the inherent crankcase pressure pulses...

Side story: Nordberg 1316 4900hp, dipstick had high and low marks. Difference between marks was one drum of oil (55gal).

tditom · Dec 1, 2011

whitedog said:
Click on it for a bigger picture.

LOL @ myself

whitedog · Dec 1, 2011

tditom said:
LOL @ myself

I wouldn't have posted it if you hadn't already joked about it.

Ski, I recall seeing a Cat engine dipstick with a mark for running and engine stopped. The dipstick would need to be surrounded by the tube all the way down with a vent on the top of the tube to vent it to crankcase.

Ski in NC · Dec 1, 2011

I think you are right, it's been a while but I think one side was marked for running and one side marked for stopped.

whitedog · Dec 3, 2011

Bob_Fout said:
Time to bring out the visual aids. Zone A, B and C.

Zone C =~ .125"
Zone B =~ .275"
Zone A =~ .190"

Today on my Fully warmed 2004, I checked the oil after 20 seconds, then at 2 minutes after shutdown, 5 min. after shutdown, 15 minutes after shutdown, 30 minutes after shutdown and 60 minutes after shutdown. I measured how much the level increased.

2 min ~ .05"
5 min ~ .14"
15 min ~ .225"
30 min ~ .280"
60 min ~ .335"

The thing I take from this is if you are tracking oil consumption, be consistent in when you check the oil level. Check it one minute after shut down, check it one hour after shut down or anywhere you choose, it doesn't matter, just be consistent.

If you are checking oil level after changing the oil, if the book says to check it after X minutes, check it after X minutes.

It ain't rocket science.

NewOwner · Dec 3, 2011

whitedog said:
Zone C =~ .125"
Zone B =~ .275"
Zone A =~ .190"

Today on my Fully warmed 2004, I checked the oil after 20 seconds, then at 2 minutes after shutdown, 5 min. after shutdown, 15 minutes after shutdown, 30 minutes after shutdown and 60 minutes after shutdown. I measured how much the level increased.

2 min ~ .05"
5 min ~ .14"
15 min ~ .225"
30 min ~ .280"
60 min ~ .335"

The thing I take from this is if you are tracking oil consumption, be consistent in when you check the oil level. Check it one minute after shut down, check it one hour after shut down or anywhere you choose, it doesn't matter, just be consistent.

If you are checking oil level after changing the oil, if the book says to check it after X minutes, check it after X minutes.

It ain't rocket science.

Great point!!

Dodoma · Dec 3, 2011

You will lose some oil due to heating. Heating turns some oil into vapor that ends up in valve cover holes. A normal car may use about 1-2 quarters over 10,000 miles interval. By this standard, you are well ahead. Congralatution for keeping your angine oil consumption free.

tditom · Dec 3, 2011

whitedog said:
Zone C =~ .125"
Zone B =~ .275"
Zone A =~ .190"

Today on my Fully warmed 2004, I checked the oil after 20 seconds, then at 2 minutes after shutdown, 5 min. after shutdown, 15 minutes after shutdown, 30 minutes after shutdown and 60 minutes after shutdown. I measured how much the level increased.

2 min ~ .05"
5 min ~ .14"
15 min ~ .225"
30 min ~ .280"
60 min ~ .335"

The thing I take from this is if you are tracking oil consumption, be consistent in when you check the oil level. Check it one minute after shut down, check it one hour after shut down or anywhere you choose, it doesn't matter, just be consistent.

If you are checking oil level after changing the oil, if the book says to check it after X minutes, check it after X minutes.

It ain't rocket science.

Thanks for the measurements.
So this means that if you check the oil an hour after shutdown, it might show in the middle of the cross-hatched area, when during normal operating temps it may actually be below the safe zone. And a properly filled dead cold engine might show as over full.

good to remember next time you change your oil. Don't fret if it appears overfull when you pour in the crankcase capacity per manufacturers specs.

T_D_I_POWER · Dec 3, 2011

tditom said:
Why do you need to make everything so difficult?
....

LOL. You and BF are the one who make things difficult. The instruction is written in simple English which neither you or BF understand.

Bob_Fout · Dec 3, 2011

T_D_I_POWER said:
LOL. You and BF are the one who make things difficult. The instruction is written in simple English which neither you or BF understand.

Ask somebody who inderstands

That's for topping up the oil, not refilling.

T_D_I_POWER · Dec 3, 2011

I can tell you right now that you don't really understand this simple English instruction.

It says " After filling in oil........"

Bob_Fout · Dec 3, 2011

T_D_I_POWER said:
I can tell you right now that you don't really understand this simple English instruction.

It says " After filling in oil........"

And those directions apply when oil is in the C range (stated as such), nothing at all with changing engine oil.

whitedog · Dec 3, 2011

Oh

Em

Gee

I'm outta here.

Bob_Fout · Dec 3, 2011

To put this very plainly, why is the max mark marked max if it's not the max? Would the real max please stand up?

manual_tranny · Dec 3, 2011

I'm so confused.

If your oil is between the min and the max you're fine. If it's slightly below the min or above the max, again you're probably going to be OK. This isn't worth arguing about either way, although if I had a gun to my head and I was asked to pick the guy who "comprehends English" the best, I would definitely go with Bob. Hey, "1st TO USE Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 IN THE CLUB", can I buy drugs from you? It would appear that you've got the good stuff...

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