Poor Mk6 Golf brakes

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT
Yikes!

I know with my car I only need to breath on the brake peddle to get it to stop. I think I may have said it before in the thread, but I installed TyrolSport's Brake Caliper Stiffening Kit a few months back. While my brakes were a bit rubbery/spongy before install they are now exactly how I would want them to be. I can now modulate braking pressure much easier then I ever could before. That said, they were never as bad as you describe.

The only way I get the peddle to sink is if I engage ABS when doing a emergency stop.

I'm kinda at a loss at this point. It almost sounds like the issue is with the brake lines?
Did you try to block off the ABS pump with the old master cylinder? Perhaps it's a brake caliper introducing the super soft brakes? The only other thing it might be... is the caliper raising back up substantially when the brake peddle is released?
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Are the rubber hoses in good shape? They might be bulging rather than transmitting all the hydraulic pressure.
 

Henrick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Ireland
TDI
Golf VI TDI, 77 kW (CAYC)
Did you try to block off the ABS pump with the old master cylinder? Perhaps it's a brake caliper introducing the super soft brakes? The only other thing it might be... is the caliper raising back up substantially when the brake peddle is released?
Yes, that was done with the old MC, at the very beginning when I arrived. This was the first thing we have done - blocked all ports going to wheels.

It is front brake circuit which is making brakes soft. Can't be calipers (one still blocked, antoher is making the pedal soft enough to notice it, and we have replaced it), can't be brake pipes either. So it's either ABS internal circuit or brake hoses under suspect. But front brake hoses look absolutely fine...




Are the rubber hoses in good shape? They might be bulging rather than transmitting all the hydraulic pressure.
Yes, they are. No visible bulging or other signs when brake pedal pressed with maximum force and engine running...
 

Henrick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Ireland
TDI
Golf VI TDI, 77 kW (CAYC)
Oh, and I think I forgot to mention one fact.

Prior to starting to mess with brakes today, the brake pedal felt solid when engine is off and vacuum is exhausted (several application on the pedal). You could stand on it and it wouldn't go anywhere.

Now after today's actions which I have described, even with engine off and vacuum exhausted, there is still extra brake pedal travel. Looks like some air is still somewhere trapped... :(
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I'd try surge bleeding each caliper to dislodge any air pockets. Then use a standard bleeding procedure on each caliper. I've had good luck w gravity bleeding on older vehicles. Not sure if these systems will gravity bleed though.
 
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Henrick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Ireland
TDI
Golf VI TDI, 77 kW (CAYC)
So the mechanic which was working on my car yesterday was busy with another high priority task today. Another mechanic was assigned despite the fact that I was very unhappy about it. However, he promised me to do his best.

The first thing he has done was blocking off one of the port on master cylinder. The one towards the front of the car. Then started the car and checked brake pedal feel. Solid, as he said, I was too tired to go and check myself. I checked which wheels the first MC circuit (which was still attached, the one that is towards the middle of the car on MC) did block. Appears it is Front Left and Rear Right.

At this point I said to myself: Finally I know for sure that the MC is designed to be diagonal and not "frnot" and "rear" between the circuits.

Then the mechanic reconnected the circuit which was blocked at MC. We decided to bleed with ignition off, the classic way "pump, hold, undo the nipple". We did this at least 15 times on FR wheel, approx 10-12 times on the rest. Then we did the bleeding using VCDS way, one wheel per time, repeating about 5 cycles. We were supposed to do both fronts at the same time but you actually need 3 persons for that, however, only the mechanic and me were available. So we did that.

"Well, it's time to start the car and check the pedal feel" he said. He started the car, let it idle and pressed on brakes. "Acceptable" he said.

I want to remind that at this point rear brakes were not touched (calipers and rotors in place) but the front ones were dismantled: rotors were sent for being turned at a shop oppiste the street and the calipers were squeezing thick metal bricks instead of pads to rotors :)

At this point we started assembling everything back. Meanwhile the rotors were turned. Well, the sad story is that they are almost at their wear limit after turning (19.6 mm actual and 19 mm is the minimum thickness). Installed new set of TRW brake pads. Used Ate Plastilube on pads backplates as well as the rotor surface where it meets wheel bearing (to prevent seizing). Used TRW PFG110 grease for guide pins.

I went for a test drive. I did 5-6 firm and rapid stops from ~55 mph/90 km/h speed during the short testdrive (7-10 min). When I returned back I realised this might have been my mistake. Strange burning smell was felt, front rotors were super hot, rear were hot too. But hey, rear rotors are now shiny! All the rust is gone. They never have been so clean wich the previous master cylinder! Looks like the brakes are functioning better now when the original MC is reinstalled back and brakes bled.

I'm still not 100% satisfied with the pedal feel and biting performance but now I think the brakes are functioning at ~90% of my satisfaction :)

I wold the workshop owner that I accidently heated up the rotors. He suggested me to be careful next time and don't do that excessive braking as the rotors are nearly at their wear limit. Better be easy on brakes unless actually needed.

Very long story short, looks like the brakes might function better now.
Also, it seems that the replacement master cylinder, which was installed into the car on 2015-Jan till yesterday was somehow "weak" or worn out, causing strange pedal feel as well as lack of braking power at rear wheels.

Thanks everybody for your input, the ideas, suggestions, etc!

All the best!

PS: when we put everything back together, we've realized that that Rear Left caliper must be binding. The wheel is harder to free spin when the car is on lift. This wasn't there a few months back! Must be either sticking guide pins or corroded cylinder. Will order a full rebuild kit (from TRW) or look for a used caliper at the salvage yards.... This is the next task for the spring :)
 

Henrick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Ireland
TDI
Golf VI TDI, 77 kW (CAYC)
Well, after several emergency brakings on wet surfaces (which included ABS activation), I feel that the brakes are getting weaker again :(

I have noticed very slightly increased pedal travel. Front brakes are getting stronger than the rears again. I can also feel that because of the "nose dive" when stopping. If I do coulple stops and touch brake rotors, the rear ones remain cold while the front ones are emitting heat. Too hot to touch with a finger.

Am I going crazy with all of this? What should I do next? Replace the ABS pump for the 2nd time?

Probably I need to find a really slippery road surface in a controlled area and try to do as much ABS activations as possible to see if they indeed get progressively worse...
 

Henrick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Ireland
TDI
Golf VI TDI, 77 kW (CAYC)
Replaced the ABS unit with a one from MY2012 car.
Bled the brakes, started the car, took for a ride, then coded the module.
Returned to the shop to continue bleeding them with VCDS, etc. More air came out. Pedal feels OK, brake power also OK.

Regarding the rear left wheel/caliper. The inner pad has seized to the caliper frame. It prevented it from moving. We smashed out the pad, installed the replacement ones found around (with more "meat" than the old ones were). With the car on the lift, the left wheel does not free spin as much as right one. Strange - the caliper piston is perfect, guide pins move freely, there is no pressure buildup in the hydraulic system either. Let's hope it will mate together after some time and become better.

Hope this issue is finally resolved.

Oh, and since the ABS module is from 2012 car, I got an extra feature - ability to enable the "2 way ESP switch". This allows to turn off ESP completely if a driver wants to.

Thanks everyone for help!
 

Minus

New member
Joined
Jan 13, 2024
Location
Portugal
TDI
VW Golf V 1.9 TDi
Hi! I hope you solved your problem after such a long journey. I’m digging this up as I’m having the same problem with my brake pedal not being as hard as I remember after an ABS module swap. Did everything you did in order to solve it (replacing MC, bleeding several times, etc), with no luck. I have improved the feeling a bit changing the pump code in VCDS (on MK60EC1 you can code MC and disc sizes and that made a difference!), but I don’t have that ”strong bite” when I press the pedal. It would be nice to hear from you to see if the last pump swap solved the problem for you. Thanks for sharing your experience!
 
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