fuel starting issue

WildChild80 · Sep 20, 2019

Would cam to crank timing not cause low compression? You said that your cam lock didn't drop in what the crank was at top dead center, did you correct the cam to crank timing prior to the compression test?

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Den · Sep 21, 2019

bobnoh said:
well it certainly sounds like everything is right. Have you checked the asv is not stuck closed or some big air pipes are loose?

asv ?

WildChild80 · Sep 21, 2019

Den said:
asv ?

Anti shudder valve, it's the other part of the erg valve...the flapper

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Den · Sep 21, 2019

WildChild80 said:
Anti shudder valve, it's the other part of the erg valve...the flapper

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I'm running the egr delete kit with race pipe conversion.

WildChild80 · Sep 21, 2019

Den said:
I'm running the egr delete kit with race pipe conversion.

Well that rules that out

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Den · Sep 21, 2019

Today I tried to start it with starting fluid, it would run as long as it had the fluid???? Also did a cylinder leak down test which came out perfect, no noticeable leakage all four cylinders.
Still only have 240 psi at compression check. TOO low.

I need a stiff drink.

So if the timing mark is set perfect at the bellhousing indicator, and the cam lok goes right in, piston is a tdc, number one valves set up as indicated in all the material I have read, and the ip pin goes right in and the cam lock goes right in, and I have fuel going thru the injectors, then
1. is it still possible to be 180 out?
2. is it simply not enough compression to fire?

Maybe I need to completely re do the timing again, at this point I could qualify for NASCAR.

Maybe i'll have two stiff drinks.

And thank you all that have responded.

Nero Morg · Sep 21, 2019

The cam lobes for cylinder one are both pointing up, you have the crank at the timing mark, yet still low compression. I gotta ask, why did you have the head off? Broken timing belt incident? Refresh? At this point, I don't think it's a timing belt alignment issue anymore. You're timed, have fuel, but low compression. Also, how did you do the cylinder leak down test? Piston at TDC, right?

KLXD · Sep 21, 2019

Assuming the compression gauge is accurate, I wonder if 240 psi is enough to run if the glowplugs are hot. Is it a trustworthy gauge?

If so, disconnecting the coolant temp will force the GP's on. Maybe try that. If it ran it would exonerate the pump and timing.

Nero's is a good question.

wonneber · Sep 21, 2019

Could the injection pump be 180 out?
Is there another hole the pin could go in?

Den · Sep 22, 2019

Nero Morg said:
The cam lobes for cylinder one are both pointing up, you have the crank at the timing mark, yet still low compression. I gotta ask, why did you have the head off? Broken timing belt incident? Refresh? At this point, I don't think it's a timing belt alignment issue anymore. You're timed, have fuel, but low compression. Also, how did you do the cylinder leak down test? Piston at TDC, right?

Well I had the car in the shop because the alternator pulley cam of disrupting everything nocking the timing belt 6 teeth off so engine stopped. They retimed the engine and told me the valves where bent. So I removed the cylinder head and found no markings that the valves hit the pistons. The lifters where in terrible condition tho. So while off I had the head rebuilt. Now car will not start. did a cylinder head leak down and have 100 % seal in all four cylinders, did a compression check and have 240 psi in each cylinder. SO, compression is too low for the engine to fire. Can the valves be seated into the head deep enough to effect the compression that much, it should be around 350 psi.? Did the shop send me on a goose chase, can you bend the valves with them not touching the pistons, think not. Confused right now.

Den · Sep 22, 2019

wonneber said:
Could the injection pump be 180 out?
Is there another hole the pin could go in?

All manuals and info I have state the ip has one deep alignment hole near the top position of the pully, and the locking pin goes in right there. and it does.

WildChild80 · Sep 22, 2019

Den said:
All manuals and info I have state the ip has one deep alignment hole near the top position of the pully, and the locking pin goes in right there. and it does.

Is this your first timing but job on these cars?

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KLXD · Sep 22, 2019

On the ALH there's only one notch in sprocket mounting hub for the pin but if the center bolt were loosened and the hub moved timing could be anywhere.

I still wonder about the accuracy of the compression gauge. Seems unlikely all the rods are bent the same amount.

WildChild80 · Sep 22, 2019

KLXD said:
On the ALH there's only one notch in sprocket mounting hub for the pin but if the center bolt were loosened and the hub moved timing could be anywhere.

I still wonder about the accuracy of the compression gauge. Seems unlikely all the rods are bent the same amount.

Well I assume it ran when he pulled it apart, so there's no reason why it shouldn't run now.

But I also am curious why the head came off

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KLXD · Sep 22, 2019

He splained what happened earlier.

Den, you said you used the same head gasket thickness. It was asked above but I'll ask again. Are you sure? A good leakdown test with low compression...

Nero Morg · Sep 22, 2019

He said he did a good leak down test and it's 100% holding. Did you measure piston protrusion before installing the new head? I agree with KLXD, I doubt all four rods are bent exactly the same. Yes if the valve seats were machined down too far it can lower compression, but I wouldn't imagine it dropping that much.
Before the timing belt slipped, I assume it was running and driving just fine? No smoke or anything? I think there's something goofy going on with your head.
You said the lefters were bad? How were they bad? I assume you replaced them? Did you lube them with assembly grease before installing? Where did you get the lifters? Wonder if they're getting stuck full extend so they are prematurely opening valves. Or oil pressure is through the roof...

JETaah · Sep 22, 2019

It would be good to get another compression gauge for comparison. I have had real trouble with those considering one was a MityVac digital and another was a Snap-on.
A third gave me trouble as well (whatever Cornwell sells) and I sent it back for recalibration. They installed a new gauge on it. I could not get a reading above 350PSI with any of them on any car. All the cars can't have low compression. With the repaired Cornwell I finally got 450-500PSI readings on cars that ran well. Bad luck with the others, I guess. Snap-On did not want to warranty theirs...that was a disappointment...kinda why I bought it to begin with.
One thing that will ruin a compression gauge for sure is to have the fuel turned on while checking the compression.

Den · Sep 22, 2019

The rebuild shop said with only .005 taken off the combustion face i should use a new gasket of course and the same size as before, in this case a one hole gasket.

Den · Sep 22, 2019

nero morg said:
he said he did a good leak down test and it's 100% holding. Did you measure piston protrusion before installing the new head? I agree with klxd, i doubt all four rods are bent exactly the same. Yes if the valve seats were machined down too far it can lower compression, but i wouldn't imagine it dropping that much.
Before the timing belt slipped, i assume it was running and driving just fine? No smoke or anything? I think there's something goofy going on with your head.
You said the lefters were bad? How were they bad? I assume you replaced them? Did you lube them with assembly grease before installing? Where did you get the lifters? Wonder if they're getting stuck full extend so they are prematurely opening valves. Or oil pressure is through the roof...

used two new guages one for compression and ine for leak down, should be accurate.before timing belt it ran perfictly, used no oil or a very small amount between changes , had great power and could easly obtain 47 mpg. Did not measure protrusion. The top / cam face of the lifters where cracked and on one you could see where the cam lobe was starting to leave a witness mark. Everything but the casting has been replaced.

Den · Sep 22, 2019

Just for kicks i'm going to spray starting fluid into the air cleaner tube long enough for it to run several seconds to see if that will give it the kick it needs to run.

Still think the head is screwed up with only 240 psi combustion but everything checks out except the depth the valves have been ground into the head, in the past we have milled the combustion face on some engines .030 to gain compression,, not sure where we go from here. If all eight valves have been seated deply into the head why would your compression not go down? Anyone interested in a great vw jetta tdi, dosen't run of course.

KLXD · Sep 22, 2019

You're right, seating the valves deeper will lower the compression but seems like a lot of missing compression for that. How much did they sink the valves?

The TDI head is flat, no combustion chamber to make smaller by milling.

They are correct about the gasket. Gasket thickness is determined by the piston protrusion so the new one should be the same as the old. Is the gasket a good brand?

Another thing occurred to me. Any chance the sprocket on the crank moved during your incident? Has it ever been removed and the bolt not replaced with a new part?

Nero Morg · Sep 22, 2019

That's a mighty big keyway to move the sprocket. I'd imagine either the crank or sprocket would be damaged beyond repair if either of those moved considerably.
Trying to get it to stay running on just starting fluid isn't the best method. But if you're going to do it, take the intake elbow off the intake manifold and shoot it in there. You don't want that stuff running through your turbo for prolonged times.

jmodge · Sep 22, 2019

Unplugging the glow plugs if you are using starting fluid would be a safe step to take, if you haven’t already

KLXD · Sep 22, 2019

It is indeed a big indexing flat on the end of the crank but it has wallowed out the sprocket for guys that have not properly reinstalled it.

Reaching for straws here trying to splain a good leakdown test with poor compression.

WildChild80 · Sep 22, 2019

KLXD said:
It is indeed a big indexing flat on the end of the crank but it has wallowed out the sprocket for guys that have not properly reinstalled it.

Reaching for straws here trying to splain a good leakdown test with poor compression.

Yeah, the torque spec is fairly crazy on the fat bolt

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Den · Oct 28, 2019

Well here is the latest, I have had three vw techs, review my engine as I was stumped as to why it will not run. My timing was spot on and the engine will run on starting fluid only.
NOW the question is, IF you mill stock off the mating surface of the cylinder head, will this modify the fuel timing and path of the fuel enough to cause a no start problem? IF so how do you modify the injectors to remedy the fuel target into the combustion chamber, add more injector seals as to lift the injectors higher in the cylinder head to remedy the fuel target area?
So far we are all stumped as to why this engine will not run.

KLXD · Oct 28, 2019

Never heard of a problem with the injectors not squirting in the right place if the head is milled. The injectors are not at that big an angle that moving five or ten thousandths vertically would move the "stream" much laterally.

I thought the problem was low compression. What happened with that?

WildChild80 · Oct 28, 2019

Were they VW techs or TDI techs... dealership monkeys haven't impressed me in decades. Even ASE certified techs can be giant blocks of pompous garbage, dumb as a bag of hammers. Just because they work under the VW moniker, don't think they much about these cars...and unless they are good friends or getting paid, don't expect much for free either.

It took me a little while to do things that didn't make sense in the gas world but are very important in the diesel world...the similarities stop at the crankshaft...if you have shadetree gas engine knowledge...it's a little different world in the black smoke kingdom.

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Den · Oct 29, 2019

KLXD said:
Never heard of a problem with the injectors not squirting in the right place if the head is milled. The injectors are not at that big an angle that moving five or ten thousandths vertically would move the "stream" much laterally.
I thought the problem was low compression. What happened with that?

Well my compression is low ( 240 psi ) each cylinder, and I cannot understand why? milling the head .005 in should not make the compression be lower it should be just the opposite , right. a minimal increase I would think.
I know if the targeting of the injectors is incorrect it will cause the motor to not start or run improperly, so we investigate everything.
I agree a .005 in removal should not cause improper fuel targeting, but what can you do to a cylinder head to make you loose say 100 or more psi compression?

STDOUBT · Oct 29, 2019

So...
Total head rebuild, 0.005mm decked, single-hole head gasket,...
In post 49 you said they did not measure protrusion. That should be standard practice given the TB event then milling. Would be nice to have those numbers. Did you or the shop do the leak down test?
What's the shop saying about that variance?

fuel starting issue

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