I don't love the DSG

ruking

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San Jose area, CA
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2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
Derrel H Green said:
:)

Well I would guess that you do not know of the traffic out here any more than I know about Boston traffic, but in our greater Los Angeles area during rush hour, we have what is know as 'slow and go.' Sometimes it is stop and go! If it is the correct time to travel, the 62.5 miles we travel often can take about one hour. If it is the incorrect time of the day to travel, that same journey can take more than
two hours, and if there is an accident, much longer.
During those times, it can and often does take one hour to go as little as ten miles.
With any manual tranny, that's simply too much for my aging left knee,
and believe me when I say, I have driven them all.
No more manuals with a clutch for me, thank you.

When I drove professionally, I loved traffic. Why? Because I was being paid by the hour.
I could sit there all day, and in the evening, I was always on time
and one half already, so you can see why I love it. :)

The DSG is the closest thing to a manual but without a manual clutch.
That's why some who have been around since the days of the model A have 'seen the light.'
Some day, perhaps not to far down the road, you too will get wise.

We just gave the last manual transmission I bought new to her son.
A 2000 Ford Focus Kona model with less than 35K miles. Wonderful little car, but she would
not drive it because it was a manual. When we traveled together, we used the other cars
over the years. Ever hear of a battery lasting for more than eight years?
A standard run-of-the-mill Ford battery? I couldn't believe it, but it did!

And as you say: To each his own.

:D
The area in my signatue (given your times in your area) would be far WORSE than yours, if what you post is correct. 27 miles o/w takes 40 mins on a NO traffic day (dreaming) 1 hour on a "good day" and up to 1.5 hours on a more normal day. So even at that commute the DSG gets a range of 40-47. The 5 speed manual gets 48-52 and a Civic automatic gets 38-42 mpg.
 

Derrel H Green

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An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
Come on now.

ruking said:
The area in my signatue (given your times in your area) would be far WORSE than yours, if what you post is correct. 27 miles o/w takes 40 mins on a NO traffic day (dreaming) and up to 1.5 hours on a more normal day. So even at that the DSG gets a range of 40-47. The 5 speed manual gets 48-52 and a Civic automatic gets 38-42 mpg.
:)
Do you know the way to San Jose? :confused: Yeh, Ah do.

I am pushing 74 years old and have lived in California all of my life,
and driven professional all over Kalliforneia, and I do know traffic. ;)
Used to sneak off base every night and travel over to your area, but that's another story.
Yes, I remember San Jose well.

There is no way that the traffic in your area can begin to match the terrible traffic we
have down South here. If you think differently, you been smoken some really good stuff.

:D
 

Car901

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2010 JSW 6spd, Black, in and out - traded for '17 Alltrack
Derrel H Green said:
:)

Well I would guess that you do not know of the traffic out here any more than I know about Boston traffic...No more manuals with a clutch for me, thank you.
And as you say: To each his own.
:D
Agreed....but I like to row...enjoy...
 

ruking

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Location
San Jose area, CA
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2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
Derrel H Green said:
:)
Do you know the way to San Jose? :confused: Yeh, Ah do.

I am pushing 74 years old and have lived in California all of my life,
and driven professional all over Kalliforneia, and I do know traffic. ;)
Used to sneak off base every night and travel over to your area, but that's another story.
Yes, I remember San Jose well.

There is no way that the traffic in your area can begin to match the terrible traffic we
have down South here. If you think differently, you been smoken some really good stuff.

:D
Seems that math has passed you by. So if it takes one hour for you to go 62.5 miles and us 1 hour to go 27 miles, you are saying: 1. your traffic is worse? 2. it takes you longer???? Just to match your times, we would have to go the 27 miles in under 27 mins. Now that would be cause for celebration !! That would actually diminish the reasons for the DSG. @ those speeds we would cut down shifting enormously.

OK..............................

Being PC, I think we have fundamentally different perspectives, or YOU are the one on something (smoking sum tin) Or on prescription stuff?? !!!! Is that because of the knee:eek: ?
 
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Derrel H Green

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Thanks.

:)
Car901 said:
Agreed....but I like to row...enjoy...
:)

I did also once. The last manual I had that I really enjoyed
was my then new '96 'Vette with the optional LT4 motor.
But that was more than thirteen years ago, and my knee didn't bother me then.

Wouldn't it be simply terrible if we all liked the same things? How boring!

:D
 

ruking

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2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
Derrel H Green said:
:)
:)

I did also once. The last manual I had that I really enjoyed
was my then new '96 'Vette with the optional LT4 motor.
But that was more than thirteen years ago, and my knee didn't bother me then.

Wouldn't it be simply terrible if we all liked the same things? How boring!

:D
I think it is more than obvious that physical issues can and do change conditions and perspectives. A certain amount of that is natural.
 

ruking

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Happy motoring to you also. All the best in your retirement.
 
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Car901

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Derrel H Green said:
:)
Some day, perhaps not to far down the road, you too will get wise.
:D
Please do not suggest that your left knee is wiser than I. It is about preference...and I prefer, you know...what I wish, not because I can't anymore.
Best wishes w/ your DSG.
 

El Dobro

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dpg said:
also have to remember that the DSG adapts to driving style. so if your family member drives it easy everyday and then here you come and drive it spiritivly of course its going to behave oddly to you.
Per the VW engineers that testified at the NHTSA investigation of the DSG, the trans does not learn driving styles.
 

Derrel H Green

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Dumb Knee.

Car901 said:
Please do not suggest that your left knee is wiser than I.
It is about preference...and I prefer, you know...what I wish, not because I can't anymore.
Best wishes w/your DSG.
:)

Please understand that that was not my intent at all. My knee does not know diddley.
It just speaks to me of pain, sometimes! :(

'So far so good' could be heard by those on the lower floors as the fellow who
had just jumped of the top of the tall building passed by them before . .

:D
 

myzamboni

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I've driven in LA congestion (3 1/2 hours on the 91E to go 36 miles) in a Toyota truck with a 5-spd.

I live in Silicon Valley and have driven in the congestion up here to (1 1/2 hours to cover the same distance).


Base on the time of travel, LA traffic is worse, but based on the stress level, Norcal is worse. Up here everyone is in a 'me first' trance and tailgates, cuts-off others, etc. In LA, everyone has accepted that there is traffic and most make some effort to just cope (probably a result of past freeway shootings).
 

ruking

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If that 3.5 hours to go 36 miles was/is the typical commute time, then yes LA traffic is 2.33 x worse. One can only go on the information provided.
 

nj1266

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Of all the cars that I have owned, I have only had two that were not manual. One was an Inifiniti G20 that I bought off my brother and the other one is the Toyota Tundra. The Tundra was not available in stick shift.

All the affordable twin clutch manuals do not impress me. Drive them hard and aggressive (on the road course) and they will overheat and go into limp mode. This is the case of the SST-TC Lancer Evolution tranny as well as others. Try holding the brake and the throttle to get a strong launch out of the SST-TC and it goes into limp mode after 2-3 times. I do that in my Tundra when drag racing and have not had a similar problem.

I will keep buying and driving manuals until my health does not allow it. All the SST and DSG and other alphabet soup trannys are no replacement to the real manual tranny.
 

brons2

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Wow this is getting silly. I didn't start this thread to have a pissing match over transmission preferences.

I approached the DSG with an open mind, and my objections are not based on "it's not a manual" but rather on some perceived deficiencies in the operation of it. Had it drove perfectly smoothly I probably would have liked it more.

In the past, I have driven an Audi A3 gasser with the DSG and liked it more in that application. I just don't know that it's a good match with the relatively narrow powerband of a direct-injected diesel engine, among with the other things I already mentioned. I think at this point, I'd probably prefer a conventional automatic over the TDI/DSG combo. $0.02.
 

ruking

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I think your reaction is really predictable and quite normal in light of my msg #36. Another clue is (in) your quote ..." Had it drove perfectly smoothly (, sic) I probably would have liked it more"...

Additionally (less we forget why VW went to a "new solution") has been the traditional MPG, hp, torque, losses (performance losses, it goes without saying heat losses, etc.) with the automatic tranmission. If you compare and contrast the 03 TDI 5 speed manual against the automatic transmission, the losses are pretty huge. www.fueleconomy.gov lists the "real world" differences as 15% better (5 mpg more) mpg for the manual transmission.

F/F to the 2009 TDI DSG/6 speed manual and MPG is listed as ...identical. So from that perspective, this is a HUGE home run for VW.

A smaller issue has been the additional weight (A/T) with it effects on mpg and handling. Another real reason, that perhaps VW will NEVER/EVER admit, is that VW has yet to design & craft a robust automatic transmission.

Now I also like to see the concept of "constant improvement". I think that VW has tried to implement it. It can however comes across as "spotty. "

A highlight might be in favor of the 6 speed transmission, if we F/F to the 2010 DSG/6 speed manual. EPA wise, there is the 1 mpg across the board gain (due to the manuals taller gearing) . However looking @ www.fueleconomy.gov we can see that the 6 speed manual transmission has gained 3.7 mpg over the DSG (average of "x" reporting vehicles) with other benefits should one have the conditions that the 6 speed manual would shine. So it would appear the higher gears have really benefited the manual transmission in the mpg dept.
 
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manual_tranny

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brons2 said:
Wow this is getting silly. I didn't start this thread to have a pissing match over transmission preferences.
This isn't a pissing match. This is just what it looks like when people around here express their opinions. Transmission preferences will be mentioned, this seems acceptable to me for a thread about transmissions... no? Lots of us are making good points about the DSG vs. Manual. For someone with hip/knee problems, DSG is a clear winner because it's automatic. For someone who has a problem spending $400 bucks every year or two for a transmission service, the manual transmission is a clear winner. Some of us just prefer to "row".

Now, as far as performance goes... there are different kinds of performance- fuel efficiency, user efficiency, (movement of operator) and mechanical efficiency (movement in gearbox). I believe that depending on the driver and the situation, either gearbox could come out as a winner.
 
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Derrel H Green

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Perceived Deficiencies

brons2 said:
Wow this is getting silly. I didn't start this thread to have a pissing match over transmission preferences.

I approached the DSG with an open mind, and my objections are not based on "it's not a manual" but rather on some perceived deficiencies in the operation of it. Had it drove perfectly smoothly I probably would have liked it more.

In the past, I have driven an Audi A3 gasser with the DSG and liked it more in that application. I just don't know that it's a good match with the relatively narrow powerband of a direct-injected diesel engine, among with the other things I already mentioned. I think at this point, I'd probably prefer a conventional automatic over the TDI/DSG combo. $0.02.
:)

The 'relatively narrow powerband' really does not have anything to do with it.

You would not prefer a 'conventional automatic over the TDI/DSG'
because of the loss of performance and the big hit F E wise.
Simply look at the slushbox performance of the 2002-3 TDI. I know because I had one.

There's a difference is simply driving someone else's car for a very
short test-drive and actually owning one and living with it daily.
You need to spend much more time with one before you can 'snap-judge' its operation. The
comparisons between the two are not 'silly' and most of us commenting are trying to be factual.
Smooth launch? How could that one you drove not be smooth? As soon as you release the brakes,
the clutch engages. The motor is still at idle. Were you hitting the throttle to hard or pressing it
to far as you released the brakes? Idle is approximately 900 rpm if I recall correctly?
Maximum torque begins at 1750 rpm. I don't know where the 'good' torque begins.
How far off idle before that low rpm torque comes 'on the pipe' as the 2 stroke bikers say.
I know that I have absolutely no trouble at all keeping up with traffic,
and in most cases, they don't keep up with me.

Because of 'the relatively narrow powerband of a direct-injected diesel engine' a person needs to 'learn how' to drive a DSG properly the same way he needs to 'learn' how to drive a manual. Do you recall how the magazine types were complaining about often stalling the manual tranny TDIs at launch? They did not know how to launch properly because they were not used to driving a TDI.
BTW, how could there not be direct injection in the diesel? :confused:
I will add this. In most given circumstances, the DSG will be right there in the
right gear, and should it not be, a slight mudge on the throttle will cause it
to be in the 'correct' gear. Will any manual do the same? I think not! :(

If you should line up at a light with a manual vs a DSG, you'd better be prepared!
No one can change gears at quickly with a manual as the DSG will do.
And the way the DSG is geared gives the advantage to the DSG. All ratios are lower.
The main disadvantage with the DSG is that with this lower gearing, fuel
economy suffers slightly. 'Slightly' being a relative term.
When compared to the 20 percent hit that the 2002-3 slushbox suffered compared
to the manual, the DSG is much more efficient thank goodness.

My DSG does indeed drive perfectly smoothly. (What's with the sic?)
The earlier 2009 TDIs with DSG, not so much. VW has indeed changed their Transmission programming
in the later vehicles, and many have gone to their dealers and had their
tranny computers reflashed and reported improvements.

It's hard for me to put into words what I mean, but IF you were local, I would gladly demonstrate
what I mean using my vehicle, and I think you just might come away with a much better viewpoint. :p

No sir, we are not trying to run down what you have said. :)
I would point out in passing, that most dealers around here are not ordering or even recieving
TDIs with manuals transmissions compared to the numbers with the DSG transmission.

:D
 

ruking

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Location
San Jose area, CA
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Derrel H Green said:
:)

The 'relatively narrow powerband' really does not have anything to do with it.

You would not prefer a 'conventional automatic over the TDI/DSG'
because of the loss of performance and the big hit F E wise.
Simply look at the slushbox performance of the 2002-3 TDI. I know because I had one.

There's a difference is simply driving someone else's car for a very
short test-drive and actually owning one and living with it daily.
You need to spend much more time with one before you can 'snap-judge' its operation. The
comparisons between the two are not 'silly' and most of us commenting are trying to be factual.
Smooth launch? How could that one you drove not be smooth? As soon as you release the brakes,
the clutch engages. The motor is still at idle. Were you hitting the throttle to hard or pressing it
to far as you released the brakes? Idle is approximately 900 rpm if I recall correctly?
Maximum torque begins at 1750 rpm. I don't know where the 'good' torque begins.
How far off idle before that low rpm torque comes 'on the pipe' as the 2 stroke bikers say.
I know that I have absolutely no trouble at all keeping up with traffic,
and in most cases, they don't keep up with me.

Because of 'the relatively narrow powerband of a direct-injected diesel engine' a person needs to 'learn how' to drive a DSG properly the same way he needs to 'learn' how to drive a manual. Do you recall how the magazine types were complaining about often stalling the manual tranny TDIs at launch? They did not know how to launch properly because they were not used to driving a TDI.
BTW, how could there not be direct injection in the diesel? :confused:
I will add this. In most given circumstances, the DSG will be right there in the
right gear, and should it not be, a slight mudge on the throttle will cause it
to be in the 'correct' gear. Will any manual do the same? I think not! :(

If you should line up at a light with a manual vs a DSG, you'd better be prepared!
No one can change gears at quickly with a manual as the DSG will do.
And the way the DSG is geared gives the advantage to the DSG. All ratios are lower.
The main disadvantage with the DSG is that with this lower gearing, fuel
economy suffers slightly. 'Slightly' being a relative term.
When compared to the 20 percent hit that the 2002-3 slushbox suffered compared
to the manual, the DSG is much more efficient thank goodness.

My DSG does indeed drive perfectly smoothly. (What's with the sic?)
The earlier 2009 TDIs with DSG, not so much. VW has indeed changed their Transmission programming
in the later vehicles, and many have gone to their dealers and had their
tranny computers reflashed and reported improvements.

It's hard for me to put into words what I mean, but IF you were local, I would gladly demonstrate
what I mean using my vehicle, and I think you just might come away with a much better viewpoint. :p

No sir, we are not trying to run down what you have said. :)
I would point out in passing, that most dealers around here are not ordering or even recieving
TDIs with manuals transmissions compared to the numbers with the DSG transmission.

:D
On your point of narrow power bands being N/A, I will agree. In addition, most of your post dovetails with msg #45..

Based on what I am seeing on threads here AND www.fueleconomy.gov, it certainly does seem in comparison to the 2009 TDI results, the advantage from an mpg point of view (others also) swings back to the 6 speed manual.
 
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stephent

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Location
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I'd like to get the 6 spd but with my lifetime hip issues and wife's knee problems, I guess we can't do it. I have a '92 saab 900 5 spd convertible and it satisfies my stick jones.

I've been researching these threads trying to talk myself into the TDI w/ DSG, I like the features, but the DSG is bleeding edge tech, which for long term is not so good. My hope is by 2010, they have it down. For so many reasons, the manual is the smarter buy for long term reliability and ownership costs, but I know there'd be driving situations that would make the 6 spd a pain. Just two I do on a regular basis, traffic in and around Atlanta and the hills in Duluth, Mn. So bleeding edge it may be.
 

Elfnmagik

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Sherman's Ashtray
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Currently De-Dub'd
Since this seems to be the hottest DSG thread at the moment, I thought I'd post here to give a little FYI. In short, my '09 has had a past, starting with one of the original 'False Neutrals', actually not once but twice. Mind you this is prior to any NHTSA recall. The dealer "fixed" the sensor per VWoA advice, and in the process had to do a fluid change as part of the repair. Well, from day one things just weren't the same. Fastforward 20k later and while still driveable, I had most, if not all the DSG driveability complaints as others on this board. I have already had the "flash" as part of the VW recall, and no difference. I always wondered after having read the instructions for the DSG 40K service and understanding how the fluid level can play a part in how it behaves, whether or not the dealer did a proper fluid fill at the end of the original service. I finally decided at 29K I'd go ahead and change it out early to see if it made a diffrence. So, today I drained out the fluid. At most, only 4.2 liters drained out as opposed to what should have been around 5. Filled 5.5 liters then DanG144 ran the VAG-Com software to get the right, then we drained. He then ran the reset, checked all parameters, then we did the test drive run to finish the diagnostics.

Well, I'm not sure whether it was just the flluid being low, the dealer not having completely run the diagnostics and driving test, or maybe both, but I can say it's night and day now. No more "clunk" just before coming to a stop, no abrupt surge at the 3rd to 2nd downshift which would throw you forward, and in 'Tip' when shifting up from 2nd to 3rd there's no "thud", now it smoothly rev-matches through all gears in Tip.

I will put it through its paces for sure tomorrow, but it seems much, much better. I'm gonna try and run it in 'Tip" mostly to see if I can get it to do the dreaded "Bang" at rolling speeds, just for Dobro :D

Fingerz crossed.
 
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Elfnmagik

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On the drive in this morning, 3 out of about 10 stops elicited a very slight "clunk" at 2nd to 1st downshifts in 'D'. This is still a much improved rate and less in severity than before. Everything else is still better too.
 

myzamboni

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stephent said:
I'd like to get the 6 spd but with my lifetime hip issues and wife's knee problems, I guess we can't do it. I have a '92 saab 900 5 spd convertible and it satisfies my stick jones.

I've been researching these threads trying to talk myself into the TDI w/ DSG, I like the features, but the DSG is bleeding edge tech, which for long term is not so good. My hope is by 2010, they have it down. For so many reasons, the manual is the smarter buy for long term reliability and ownership costs, but I know there'd be driving situations that would make the 6 spd a pain. Just two I do on a regular basis, traffic in and around Atlanta and the hills in Duluth, Mn. So bleeding edge it may be.

DSG is not bleeding edge tech. VW has been using it in racing applications since the early 80s.
 

ruking

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Location
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myzamboni said:
DSG is not bleeding edge tech. VW has been using it in racing applications since the early 80s.
For me the real litmus test is the time/miles VW has been R&D, testing and using the DSG on the European open markets. A lot of articles I have read says the DSG has had great successes. If so, that is really another example of stuff that has difficulty in the translation, when it lands for the American markets.
 

roy1

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ruking said:
For me the real litmus test is the time/miles VW has been R&D, testing and using the DSG on the European open markets. A lot of articles I have read says the DSG has had great successes. If so, that is really another example of stuff that has difficulty in the translation, when it lands for the American markets.
Exactly , DSG has been in taxi service from the beginning and it is still going strong.
 
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