Complicated EGT talk etc.

mojogoes said:

Theo! what size are your primeries on this manifold. = id.

Click to expand...

28mm

vwmikel said:

The pressure may be good, but the air temps are probably very high so the density is very low and causing the smoke/high EGT's.

Click to expand...

Might be, but this is a log from a day when it was +15deg.C and sunny. I was driving from ~0-180km/h...

,Grupp A:,'007,,,,Grupp B:, Stoppat,,,,Grupp C:, Stoppat
,,Fuel Temp,Fuel cooling state,Intake Air Temp,Coolant Temp,,,,,,,,,,
,TIDS-,~Amb.Temp.*C,On:100%-Off:0%,~Amb.Temp.*C,~Amb.Temp.*C,TIDS-,,,,,TIDS-,,,,
Markering,MÄRKE,°C, %,°C,°C,MÄRKE,,,,,MÄRKE,,,,
,0.33,67.5,0.0,21.6,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,0.71,67.5,0.0,21.6,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,1.08,67.5,0.0,21.6,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,1.45,67.5,0.0,21.6,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,1.84,67.5,0.0,21.6,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,2.23,67.5,0.0,22.5,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,2.63,67.5,0.0,22.5,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,3.02,67.5,0.0,23.4,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,3.42,67.5,0.0,23.4,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,3.81,67.5,0.0,23.4,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,4.20,67.5,0.0,24.3,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,4.59,66.6,0.0,24.3,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,4.98,67.5,0.0,25.2,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,5.37,66.6,0.0,25.2,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,5.75,66.6,0.0,25.2,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,6.14,66.6,0.0,25.2,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,6.52,66.6,0.0,26.1,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,6.91,66.6,0.0,26.1,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,7.28,66.6,0.0,27.0,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,7.65,66.6,0.0,27.0,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,8.02,66.6,0.0,27.0,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,8.41,66.6,0.0,27.9,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,8.80,66.6,0.0,28.8,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,9.19,66.6,0.0,29.7,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,9.59,66.6,0.0,29.7,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,9.97,66.6,0.0,30.6,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,10.37,66.6,0.0,29.7,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,10.76,66.6,0.0,30.6,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,11.15,67.5,0.0,30.6,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,11.54,67.5,0.0,31.5,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,11.93,67.5,0.0,31.5,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,12.32,67.5,0.0,32.4,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,12.70,67.5,0.0,32.4,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,13.08,67.5,0.0,32.4,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,13.46,67.5,0.0,33.3,84.6,,,,,,,,,,
,13.84,67.5,0.0,33.3,85.5,,,,,,,,,,
,14.21,67.5,0.0,34.2,85.5,,,,,,,,,,
,14.59,67.5,0.0,34.2,85.5,,,,,,,,,,
,14.98,67.5,0.0,35.1,85.5,,,,,,,,,,
,15.37,67.5,0.0,35.1,85.5,,,,,,,,,,
,15.76,67.5,0.0,36.0,85.5,,,,,,,,,,
,16.15,67.5,0.0,36.0,85.5,,,,,,,,,,
,16.55,68.4,0.0,36.0,85.5,,,,,,,,,,
,16.94,68.4,0.0,36.9,85.5,,,,,,,,,,
,17.33,68.4,0.0,36.9,86.4,,,,,,,,,,
,17.72,68.4,0.0,37.8,86.4,,,,,,,,,,
,18.11,68.4,0.0,36.9,86.4,,,,,,,,,,
,18.50,68.4,0.0,36.9,86.4,,,,,,,,,,
,18.89,68.4,0.0,36.9,86.4,,,,,,,,,,
,19.27,68.4,0.0,36.9,86.4,,,,,,,,,,
,19.63,68.4,0.0,37.8,86.4,,,,,,,,,,
,20.01,68.4,0.0,37.8,86.4,,,,,,,,,,
,20.39,68.4,0.0,37.8,86.4,,,,,,,,,,
,20.77,69.3,0.0,38.7,86.4,,,,,,,,,,
,21.16,69.3,0.0,38.7,86.4,,,,,,,,,,
,21.55,69.3,0.0,38.7,87.3,,,,,,,,,,
,21.94,69.3,0.0,39.6,87.3,,,,,,,,,,
,22.33,69.3,0.0,39.6,87.3,,,,,,,,,,
,22.73,69.3,0.0,39.6,87.3,,,,,,,,,,
,23.13,69.3,0.0,39.6,87.3,,,,,,,,,,
,23.53,69.3,0.0,38.7,87.3,,,,,,,,,,
,23.92,70.2,0.0,37.8,87.3,,,,,,,,,,
,24.31,70.2,0.0,36.9,87.3,,,,,,,,,,
,24.70,70.2,0.0,36.9,87.3,,,,,,,,,,
,25.08,70.2,0.0,36.0,87.3,,,,,,,,,,
,25.46,70.2,0.0,36.0,87.3,,,,,,,,,,
,25.83,70.2,0.0,35.1,88.2,,,,,,,,,,
,26.21,70.2,0.0,35.1,88.2,,,,,,,,,,
,26.59,70.2,0.0,35.1,88.2,,,,,,,,,,
,26.97,70.2,0.0,34.2,88.2,,,,,,,,,,
,27.37,71.1,0.0,34.2,88.2,,,,,,,,,,

This was with a pretty fast and smokey remap but maximum IAT is 40deg.C and my mapsensor do now seem to work as it should.

//Theo

Haven't read the whole thread, so i don't know if someone has already said it. But here goes. Why use that heat wrap on the manifold. I know it will keep engine bay temp. down. But it sure as hel* will keep that manifold hot to. I've tried using it on turbo maniflolds but it has given nothing more than problems, the manifolds can get so hot they break. Now i never use it, and since that, the manifolds hold forever. and engine bay temps. never give any problems anyway.

vwmikel said:

The pressure may be good, but the air temps are probably very high so the density is very low and causing the smoke/high EGT's.

Click to expand...

I agree........its working out of its efficency zone......Theo this is ok for street power but will fall short on the track because you know you want that bit extra hp for keeping up with certain cars yeah then when your tuner tries to dial this power inn is when all the problems start with egt's/overboosting

You will have to get used to driving with a little more lag than your used to and you could wrap the exhaust/manifold to keep the heat in and to keep up the exhaust velocity/boost , or live with what you got

you wrap/coat a manifold to keep the heat IN. you don't want the heat getting out of a manifold on a turbo'd engine. what drives the turbo? answer - heat energy. the more heat you allow to escape from the header the laggier the turbo will be down low. its not just air pressure that drives a turbo.

if your headers are cracking my guess is you aren't using enough flex in the appropriate areas. my dmax runs headers and it gets way over 2200* to the point the headers glow so hot you can see them through the black feder liner as if it wasn't there

as long as we use proper flex they won't crack.

Ian Collins said:

Haven't read the whole thread, so i don't know if someone has already said it. But here goes. Why use that heat wrap on the manifold. I know it will keep engine bay temp. down. But it sure as hel* will keep that manifold hot to. I've tried using it on turbo maniflolds but it has given nothing more than problems, the manifolds can get so hot they break. Now i never use it, and since that, the manifolds hold forever. and engine bay temps. never give any problems anyway.

Click to expand...

EMP is low and boost air temp is low so it cannot be that bad. And it does not make any funny sounds, does it?

On the contrary that MB GT2359V will squeal like a pig after 1.5 bar . I think it has too high exducer for a 1.9 but could be wrong.

I'm sure no one is interested but could we see Audi GTB2260VK compressor map?

TDIfreak said:

EMP is low and boost air temp is low so it cannot be that bad. And it does not make any funny sounds, does it?

On the contrary that MB GT2359V will squeal like a pig after 1.5 bar . I think it has too high exducer for a 1.9 but could be wrong.

I'm sure no one is interested but could we see Audi GTB2260VK compressor map?

Click to expand...

What do you mean by it squealing? And I don't have the GTB2260VK compressor map

Well it might still be coincidence but both two GT2359V's that I know makes the sound at high boost.
One of the turbos have been in two different cars already making the sound. And the turbo was serviced in between.
It sounds bad but don't know why. Comp surge maybe?

Mike we are sure you get that map eventually .

TDIfreak said:

Well it might still be coincidence but both two GT2359V's that I know makes the sound at high boost.
One of the turbos have been in two different cars already making the sound. And the turbo was serviced in between.
It sounds bad but don't know why. Comp surge maybe?

Mike we are sure you get that map eventually .

Click to expand...

You can use a IVECO GT2259S compressor cover it´s compatibile with 59mm compressor, so you´ll have a anti-surge options for better spooling.

StingrayRT said:

You can use a IVECO GT2259S compressor cover it´s compatibile with 59mm compressor, so you´ll have a anti-surge options for better spooling.

Click to expand...

I can't find one of those

IVECO - a small european truck GT2259S waste gated turbo.

bigger FMIC!

i always thought your FMIC was quite small from the pics in your build thread. get one thats the full height of the radiator, and 2.5" thick.
oh and if you want a GT2359V i have one in the classifieds

StingrayRT said:

IVECO - a small european truck GT2259S waste gated turbo.

Click to expand...

Yes, but due to beurocratic BS I can't order one. Often I have to deal with what I can find on ebay.

It has been said by many that the 2260 isn't the best turbo, though many also thing it's the greatest thing ever, personally i wouldn't use it, though that's just my opinion. There are way better compressor maps out there.

I did say in another thread that your FMIC is a little small, though 40degC (104degF) is not really high.
What was the outside temp when your IAT was 40degC though ?

TheoSweden said:

Yeah compressormap is for sure strange...
I do got low EMP, always lower than boost, and at 5000rpm it is the same as boost.

What do you think is the hickup in my engine then?

Click to expand...

I know nothing about PDs, but Ruben got you a nice list although it's missing few things IMO.

Are you sure your ex. mani id is 28mm? Maybe 38mm?

Now, You don't have high EMP and you have also moderate IAT, so maybe it's not the turbo...

With gt2260v you don't need ported shroud as it spools low enough as it is. Surge is possible with 1.9L, but as it can deliver ~1,5bar @2000rpm as it is, nothing fancy is needed. IMO gt2359v is obsolete compared to this one and has lower operating PR (spool is much worse too).

Gt2260v is not the ultimate thing for high top hp but it gives a nice broad powerband which is nice when you are street driving. It delivers 300++hp in BMW 330D engine as it is with PR ~3, so we are kind of long way from that chart mentioned before...

shadowmaker said:

Gt2260v is not the ultimate thing for high top hp but it gives a nice broad powerband which is nice when you are street driving. It delivers 300++hp in BMW 330D engine as it is with PR ~3, so we are kind of long way from that chart mentioned before...

Click to expand...

This is very good point.

There might be some reason for cutting the map of 2260V but we haven't seen the reason in practise, not is a small engine and especially not in a larger one.

re

TDIfreak said:

This is very good point.

There might be some reason for cutting the map of 2260V but we haven't seen the reason in practise, not is a small engine and especially not in a larger one.

Click to expand...

Better option for BMW, AUDI GT2260V is to use a Iveco GT2260V (HPT 3.0 engine) due possibilities of ported shroud compressor cover.

Thursday,09,April,2009,13:54:51 038 906 012 FK ,,1.9l R4 EDC 0000SG 3357,
,Group A:,'011,,,,Group B:, Not Running,,,,Group C:, Not Running ,,Engine speed,Specified MAP,Actual MAP,D.cycle MAP v.,,,,,,,,,, ,TIME,rpm,1850-1950 mbar,1700-2080 mbar,45-95%,TIME,,,,,TIME,,,, MARKER,STAMP, /min,,, %,STAMP,,,,,STAMP,,,, ,0.00,1722,1821.2,1805.5,39.8,,,,,,,,,, ,0.40,1785,1884.0,2009.6,43.0,,,,,,,,,, ,0.79,1827,1962.5,2150.9,40.2,,,,,,,,,, ,1.18,1911,2072.4,2182.3,49.0,,,,,,,,,, ,1.57,1995,2182.3,2276.5,55.0,,,,,,,,,, ,1.97,2058,2292.2,2307.9,54.2,,,,,,,,,, ,2.36,2142,2355.0,2355.0,58.6,,,,,,,,,, ,2.75,2226,2433.5,2402.1,57.8,,,,,,,,,, ,3.15,2310,2480.6,2449.2,59.8,,,,,,,,,, ,3.54,2394,2527.7,2480.6,61.8,,,,,,,,,, ,3.93,2478,2574.8,2527.7,63.4,,,,,,,,,, ,4.33,2541,2621.9,2590.5,63.0,,,,,,,,,, ,4.72,2646,2684.7,2653.3,61.0,,,,,,,,,, ,5.11,2730,2731.8,2731.8,62.2,,,,,,,,,, ,5.51,2814,2778.9,2794.6,63.0,,,,,,,,,, ,5.90,2898,2826.0,2857.4,64.5,,,,,,,,,, ,6.29,2982,2873.1,2904.5,65.3,,,,,,,,,, ,6.68,3066,2888.8,2951.6,67.3,,,,,,,,,, ,7.08,3150,2904.5,2967.3,68.5,,,,,,,,,, ,7.47,3276,2904.5,2983.0,68.9,,,,,,,,,, ,7.86,3339,2920.2,2998.7,72.1,,,,,,,,,, ,8.26,3423,2920.2,3014.4,72.1,,,,,,,,,, ,8.65,3486,2935.9,2998.7,73.3,,,,,,,,,, ,9.04,3570,2935.9,2983.0,72.9,,,,,,,,,, ,9.43,3654,2920.2,2967.3,75.3,,,,,,,,,, ,9.83,3696,2920.2,2951.6,74.5,,,,,,,,,, ,10.22,3780,2920.2,2951.6,74.5,,,,,,,,,, ,10.61,3843,2920.2,2935.9,76.1,,,,,,,,,, ,11.01,3885,2920.2,2935.9,76.5,,,,,,,,,, ,11.40,3969,2904.5,2920.2,75.7,,,,,,,,,, ,11.80,4032,2904.5,2920.2,76.9,,,,,,,,,,


This is a log with the gtb2260vk from yesterday, can't say it spools bad, and emp keeps under boost till 5000rpm with 1.9 bar boost, afterwards emp gets a little higher, but I think it will be better when egt is higher, now I only see 700°C or so at 5000rpm,

Theo, can you post a log of channel 4? are you using stock CR? is you cam timing correct?

1 bar at 1800 rpm .

Quote.....Shadowmaker
"Are you sure your ex. mani id is 28mm? Maybe 38mm?"

This is why i asked this question also!

Here's a partial dyno plot from 330D with gt2260v. It's not mine so I won't show complete plot. ~350bhp.



I don't get the ported shroud thing. Why would you want less efficiency with your compressor if it's not needed? I understand it when surge is present, but it is capable of 1,0bar @1800rpm without it. Do you really need more boost down low?

mojogoes said:

I agree........its working out of its efficency zone......Theo this is ok for street power but will fall short on the track because you know you want that bit extra hp for keeping up with certain cars yeah then when your tuner tries to dial this power inn is when all the problems start with egt's/overboosting

You will have to get used to driving with a little more lag than your used to and you could wrap the exhaust/manifold to keep the heat in and to keep up the exhaust velocity/boost , or live with what you got

Click to expand...

Yes, I know I can have it last on the street for very long with 240-250hp (pretty much smoke tough) but as said EGTs go up MUCH on a track a warm day, so that powerlevel is not possible to use with this setup, pretty simple.

So whats need to be changed/done is the main question, and I think you are totaly right, I have to realize I need a bigger turbo and get a little laggier setup. Street is one thing, racing is something else.

TDIfreak said:

EMP is low and boost air temp is low so it cannot be that bad. And it does not make any funny sounds, does it?

Click to expand...

Yes, at the moment IAT is low, and EMP seems great to me. No funny sounds eather, I was hoping more "clean" power was possible, but maybe not then...

fenwick458 said:

bigger FMIC!

i always thought your FMIC was quite small from the pics in your build thread. get one thats the full height of the radiator, and 2.5" thick.
oh and if you want a GT2359V i have one in the classifieds

Click to expand...

I think thats a good idea to. Tough I got a FMIC that is a bit bigger than on the photos, it is 230x550x65mm. I used a smaller one in my VNT20 setup.

shadowmaker said:

I know nothing about PDs, but Ruben got you a nice list although it's missing few things IMO.

Are you sure your ex. mani id is 28mm? Maybe 38mm?

Now, You don't have high EMP and you have also moderate IAT, so maybe it's not the turbo...

With gt2260v you don't need ported shroud as it spools low enough as it is. Surge is possible with 1.9L, but as it can deliver ~1,5bar @2000rpm as it is, nothing fancy is needed. IMO gt2359v is obsolete compared to this one and has lower operating PR (spool is much worse too).

Gt2260v is not the ultimate thing for high top hp but it gives a nice broad powerband which is nice when you are street driving. It delivers 300++hp in BMW 330D engine as it is with PR ~3, so we are kind of long way from that chart mentioned before...

Click to expand...

28mm yes. ~(like the diameter of the exhaust port)

We can make my turbo surge as hell if we want, I have 1,6-1,7bar already at 2300rpm and that is "to much" for the engine. No use to get that high before 3000rpm.

Scott02 said:

It has been said by many that the 2260 isn't the best turbo, though many also thing it's the greatest thing ever, personally i wouldn't use it, though that's just my opinion. There are way better compressor maps out there.

I did say in another thread that your FMIC is a little small, though 40degC (104degF) is not really high.
What was the outside temp when your IAT was 40degC though ?

Click to expand...

I wouldnt use it eather If I made a choise now...

As I wrote it was +15deg. C outside when I did that log...

Rub87 said:

.......

This is a log with the gtb2260vk from yesterday, can't say it spools bad, and emp keeps under boost till 5000rpm with 1.9 bar boost, afterwards emp gets a little higher, but I think it will be better when egt is higher, now I only see 700°C or so at 5000rpm,

Theo, can you post a log of channel 4? are you using stock CR? is you cam timing correct?

Click to expand...

I send you a PM with the log before I have talked to my tuner..

CR is lowered, Around half the lip on the piston is cutted, Around 18:1 or something? Cam timing is a bit changed around -2 "Syncro angle"

Some thoughts:

-maybe EGT gauge is not right

-What piston bowl design do you have?
-Try other cam this gives lower dynamic compression.
Less exhaust gasses stay in cilinder so more cold air and lower egt.
And help spooling big turbo.

-How much deg. injection do you have?
-How high is compression?
-Measure the pressure differents between just after compressor and intake manifold.
Than you know efficient your ic system is.
When you have for example 0.3 bar if you can make it 0,1 bar you have 0,2 bar lower emp with same MAP => more power with lower EGT

Johan

Thanks Johan

EGT gauge might be wrong, but I dont think it is. Autometer something, not the most expensive but...

As said a little left on the "lip" my guess is 18:1, but might be a little lower.

Show me a cam that lasts and I'll probably buy one I used regular full synthetic 10W50 oil last year, that worn the stock cam and lifters..

We have tryed up to 32 deg. duration, and injectors seem to give huge amounts of fuel.

I can try to measure that later, could be intresting.

turbo johan said:

Some thoughts:

-maybe EGT gauge is not right

-What piston bowl design do you have?
-Try other cam this gives lower dynamic compression.
Less exhaust gasses stay in cilinder so more cold air and lower egt.
And help spooling big turbo.

-How much deg. injection do you have?
-How high is compression?
-Measure the pressure differents between just after compressor and intake manifold.
Than you know efficient your ic system is.
When you have for example 0.3 bar if you can make it 0,1 bar you have 0,2 bar lower emp with same MAP => more power with lower EGT

Johan

Click to expand...

TheoSweden said:

As I wrote it was +15deg. C outside when I did that log...

Click to expand...

So it was 15degC outside and you had IAT of 40degC... That's not that good.

104degF - 59degF = 45degF rise

That's a pretty big change.

On my car with a pretty huge FMIC and large diameter piping and 18psi (stock intake manifold and head).
I can do back to back to back 30-70mph 3rd gear pulls on a 80degF day,
and only see ~12degF over ambiant temperature.

I've seen the log of channel 4, the timing duration is very good, that will not be the cause of the high egt's.. maybe there's too little lip on the pistons?

Rub87 said:

...maybe there's too little lip on the pistons?

Click to expand...

This was the first thought in theo's other threads about increased smoke, if i rememeber correctly.
Sorta makes sense that the bowl lip could be the entire culprit this whole time.

Yes could be the maybe to small lip that couses much of the smoke, but I know a few with even bigger bowl diameter(no lip at all) that its working better for...

Been testing my current remap more now, and it runs just great and are smoke free when I have full boost (2,0bar) but its just 210-220hp. EGT only goes up to 850deg. when driving up to 200km/h in 5th gear (5000rpm). Better intercooling and changed intake might make it possible to put in a little more fuel...

Theo! it maybe because these other people's bowls are much larger/deeper with x amount of fuel being injected = (not too excessive/max) so they don't get too much smoke output...........at one time i also was going to do the same as you to the lip as i not only wanted lower cr but to be able to increase fueling real high........but was told under no circumstances to do so because of the exact reason you speak of here plus of possible high heat spots too.

And if it is because of having no lip there is no way around ever getting rid of this condition as its at source unlike other scinarios such as too much fuel and not enough air ........you would have to run too lean to clear up this problem leaving the performance a little lack luster and plain jane.

re

TheoSweden said:

Yes could be the maybe to small lip that couses much of the smoke, but I know a few with even bigger bowl diameter(no lip at all) that its working better for...

Been testing my current remap more now, and it runs just great and are smoke free when I have full boost (2,0bar) but its just 210-220hp. EGT only goes up to 850deg. when driving up to 200km/h in 5th gear (5000rpm). Better intercooling and changed intake might make it possible to put in a little more fuel...

Click to expand...

850°C is okay - still cold! Seems that you´ll have a nice boost pressure 2bar but less density due the restriction at intake side.