Mercedes BluTec horror primer. Much useful info for TDI's too!!

goodmonkey

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2014 Passat TDI, 2011 Touareg TDI
A very long rant it seems against the design of the MB BluTec emission controls, MB, and MB owners. Very little technical information to make any kind of decision on. Interested though into looking at NOACK numbers in my own oil. Also interesting to hear about DPF cleaning on the car. He does make a really good point though: the engine is much more valuable piece vs the DPF, DPF cheaper to replace vs the engine.
 

Mike in Anchorage

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I had the impression the BlueTec motors were bullet proof and have been considering a Sprinter based motorhome for retirement travel. This article is a wakeup. I have the same question - for those who live in more extreme environments, would motorcycle oils be better for our TDIs?
 

GoFaster

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Joined
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Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
I don't place much credibility in long-winded rants like that. He makes a couple of good points:
- Don't cheap out.
- Don't use excessively long oil change intervals.
- Don't use a low-viscosity oil in a high-temperature environment.

Motorcycle oils have to be tailored to the requirements of a "wet" (oil-bath) friction clutch that most such engines have. Your automotive engine doesn't have that constraint. Motorcycle oils have also been reformulated for catalyst requirements - everything nowadays has a catalyst, including all new street-legal motorcycles.

The good ester-based motorcycle oils that he speaks of, are generally "racing" oils that are NOT designed for long oil drain intervals. (Motul 300V is a "racing" oil)

It is not a problem to find automotive oils with LOW viscosities (which would be better suited to cold environments - like Alaska). It is a bigger problem to find motorcycle oils with low viscosities. The common choices are 10w40 and 20w50.

If you want to play games with what's in your TDI (i.e. slightly higher viscosity) I'd lean towards using a diesel-engine-rated oil that is a 5w40 or some such (e.g. Rotella T6) as opposed to the 0w30 that is originally recommended. BUT for those of you with the EA288 (2015 models) which have had the "fix" and its lengthy warranty, I'd also strongly suggest not doing anything that could give VW the slightest excuse to invalidate it ... i.e. use what VW says you should use until that warranty is up.

I freshened up a bike engine last year with new piston rings etc. Know what's in there for break-in? The cheapest 15w40 that I could find ... Heavy-duty diesel oil ...
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
That guy is a well known whackadoodle. His rants seem to be based off of extreme examples. Not at all what I have seen, and why I had faith in purchasing my new Sprinter. Which since then the decision is reinforced almost daily with Transit and Promaster fails here at the shop, the other two vehicles in my choices. To be fair, 99% of the Promaster fails are related to the gasoline-fueled versions, which just use a minivan powertrain taxed beyond its limits in a giant Fiat van... the diesel version doesn't have to worry about any of that, but may have other issues I am not aware of due to the rarity of diesel Promasters sold here.

We are putting yet ANOTHER transmission in a Promaster today. :rolleyes:

I can count on one finger how many Sprinter transmissions I have had to replace. Not saying they never break, but we certainly do not see it here.

There is a sharp increase in engine management related issues with SCR equipped Sprinters. DEF tank heaters are common, various sensors, and some of them have issues with the support bracket for the DPF cracking, which causes a stress crack in the flange of the DPF's outlet that is such that the hot exhaust will melt the DEF injector. They've had an improved bracket for several years, though, so I doubt any of the originals are still left in place by now. The Sprinters hold a LOT of oil (11.5 liters on the 4 cyl, 12.5 liters on the V6), so running them the full service interval is not a problem. They also have low oil level sensors, too.

They relocated the DEF tank on the later Sprinters, and I have not seen any issues with heaters on those versions. In fact, I have not seen ANY problem of ANY kind on the 4 cyl versions, which were sold here from 2014-2016. We service a fleet of them, and just landed another customer that has a bunch more of them.
 

InfoSec

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Joined
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Location
Brighton, MI
I concur with oilhammer... I think that dude is whacko, but he is, if anything, passionate about his motorcycle oils...

I just tuned/deleted the old '10 MB Bluetec and did the oil cooler seals, so I hope I'm on my way to some carefree miles. I also had the timing chain replaced (it was so nicely stretched). I figure 9 qts of good oil changed frequently is good insurance.
 

jmodge

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Oilhammer, good details. Nothing beats experience, and it is always less painful when it is someone elses experience.
 

truman

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Most of the engine problems that I read about on MB Forums are issues with the Bluetec. More than a few Bluetec owners recommend against it. Some of the failures are catastrophic and many are expensive- 2500-5000/per. I wonder whether the automotive and truck applications may be different in some ways. Oil cooler, chain stretch, black death from injector seals leaking, DEF tank failures, sensors, turbo, and oil gelling, to name a few. MB owners seem feel lucky if they make it to 100k without a major failure.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
This is how see them:



They just run and run and run. And what is especially great about the Sprinters is that they are not hard on brakes, steering, suspension, rear axles, etc. NOTHING like the domestic vans (not even close).

I do think proper care is key, though. The ones that come in here get taken good care of. We hardly see any diesel MB passenger cars. The couple that we do see have had no issues though. But they are not driven nearly as much save for a 2005 E320 that has sailed past 300k miles already. Aside from ball joints and the SBC brake controller, that car has needed very little. That is still the inline 6 cyl engine.

As I said, the SCR equipped ones have some bits that are failure prone, but that seems to have been limited to the 2010-2012 era mostly.
 

jmodge

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This is how see them:

They just run and run and run. And what is especially great about the Sprinters is that they are not hard on brakes, steering, suspension, rear axles, etc. NOTHING like the domestic vans (not even close).
I do think proper care is key, though. The ones that come in here get taken good care of. We hardly see any diesel MB passenger cars. The couple that we do see have had no issues though. But they are not driven nearly as much save for a 2005 E320 that has sailed past 300k miles already. Aside from ball joints and the SBC brake controller, that car has needed very little. That is still the inline 6 cyl engine.
As I said, the SCR equipped ones have some bits that are failure prone, but that seems to have been limited to the 2010-2012 era mostly.
I had thoughts of picking one up to run cargo and see the country, if that idea comes to fruition I would like to bend your ear if I could.
 

ApriliaNut

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Interesting that a few posters label the author of this article a "Well known whackadoodle"; the article itself a " long winded rant"; [or whatever the descriptive adjective is chosen]. Jmodge compliments oilhammer with "nothing beats experience" yet dismisses Stephens experience. Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?!?



I had no personal experience with him nor his shop when it was up and running before he retired, but:

So for what it’s worth; in 1967, I got a job at the Mercedes-Benz dealer in Indianapolis. In those days, you could actually work your way through college. I was a Mechanic, Shop Foreman, & a Training Instructor. Finally, I was the Service Director for two Mercedes-Benz dealerships. Mercedes-Benz gave me the “Star Technician” award once & the “Mercedes-Benz Service Manager of the Year” award 5 times. Twenty-five years ago I started my own Mercedes-Benz shop. I retired at the end of 2017.


So with what looks to be 51 years of continuous MBZ servicing he would seem to be qualified to point out and list the nuances of this problem, which he has done.

I wonder if Jmodge and oilhammer read the entire, albeit lengthy, article? I did. I like long articles as it gives me a more clear understanding of what the individual author is trying to communicate. He certainly makes logical deductive conclusions given posited facts e.g. the tremendous heat generated by the under engine skid plate causing plastic and rubber lines to fail and cracking other valuable components relating to proper engine function; MBZ factory filling the sump with the same weight oil for the extreme cold of Canada to the heat of the desert southwest, and still recommending 20k oil change intervals! (and points out their incestuous relationship with Mobil, the oil company that fills the sump), He invites you to go to the Garrett turbocharger website [who makes the turbos for the blutec] FAQ section where he points out that the turbo should have its' own cooling system which it does not; I could go on and on.


It seems to me that this thorough article is not something to be looked at lightly should one be considering an upgrade from a TDI to a blutec or Sprinter.


YRMV...
 
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jmodge

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Interesting that a few posters label the author of this article a "Well known whackadoodle"; the article itself a " long winded rant"; [or whatever the descriptive adjective is chosen]. Jmodge compliments oilhammer with "nothing beats experience" yet dismisses Stevens experience. Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?!?



I had no personal experience with him nor his shop when it was up and running before he retired, but:

So for what it’s worth; in 1967, I got a job at the Mercedes-Benz dealer in Indianapolis. In those days, you could actually work your way through college. I was a Mechanic, Shop Foreman, & a Training Instructor. Finally, I was the Service Director for two Mercedes-Benz dealerships. Mercedes-Benz gave me the “Star Technician” award once & the “Mercedes-Benz Service Manager of the Year” award 5 times. Twenty-five years ago I started my own Mercedes-Benz shop. I retired at the end of 2017.


So with what looks to be 51 years of continuous MBZ servicing he would seem to be qualified to point out and list the nuances of this problem, which he has done.

I wonder if Jmodge and oilhammer read the entire, albeit lengthy, article? I did. I like long articles as it gives me a more clear understanding of what the individual author is trying to communicate. He certainly makes logical deductive conclusions given posited facts e.g. the tremendous heat generated by the under engine skid plate causing plastic and rubber lines to fail and cracking other valuable components relating to proper engine function; MBZ factory filling the sump with the same weight oil for the extreme cold of Canada to the heat of the desert southwest, and still recommending 20k oil change intervals! (and points out their incestuous relationship with Mobil, the oil company that fills the sump), He invites you to go to the Garrett turbocharger website [who makes the turbos for the blutec] FAQ section where he points out that the turbo should have its' own cooling system which it does not; I could go on and on.


It seems to me that this thorough article is not something to be looked at lightly should one be considering an upgrade from a TDI to a blutec or Sprinter.


YRMV...
Yes, I read his whole post some time ago. Did you read mine? LOOK! I did not comment or voice an opinion on Stephens post or him, therefore did you decide my opinion for me? It's not surprising you misquoted me, You also mispelled Stephens name.
 

ApriliaNut

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06 pkg 1 Jetta 191k w/Malone Stage 2
Yes, I read his whole post some time ago. Did you read mine? LOOK! I did not comment or voice an opinion on Stephens post or him, therefore did you decide my opinion for me? It's not surprising you misquoted me, You also mispelled Stephens name.



Hey, don't get bent all out of shape, and yes I did read your post also.


I know you didn't comment nor voice an opinion, I was just wondering if you read the entire thing, that's all.



Where, exactly did I misquote you?


Perhaps I should have used the term "by inference" when stating that you seem to dismiss Stephens experience whilst agreeing with Oilhammer. My apologies if I was unclear and by no means was it my intention to misquote anyone.



Thanks for the proof reading. Spelling corrected!


I still think this is a very useful article for potential purchase of one of these Blutecs. Were I to do so, I would certainly get rid of that underpan, and design and install a dedicated turbo cooling system! ;)
 

SoTxBill

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its not the base, its the additives!!
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I don't place much credibility in long-winded rants like that. He makes a couple of good points:


Motorcycle oils have to be tailored to the requirements of a "wet" (oil-bath) friction clutch that most such engines have. Your automotive engine doesn't have that constraint. Motorcycle oils have also been reformulated for catalyst requirements - everything nowadays has a catalyst, including all new street-legal motorcycles.

The good ester-based motorcycle oils that he speaks of, are generally "racing" oils that are NOT designed for long oil drain intervals. (Motul 300V is a "racing" oil)


I freshened up a bike engine last year with new piston rings etc. Know what's in there for break-in? The cheapest 15w40 that I could find ... Heavy-duty diesel oil ...

IIRC There are/was two different motorcycle oil specs.. one for wet clutch and another for none wet clutch. The one for none wet clutch has/had more "friction modifiers" in it and was considered the best oil you could buy as hd diesel oils had to meet emissions. But that was a few years back and have not looked recently. With motorcycles now doing emissions, that too may have changed.
 

turbobrick240

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maine
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Interesting that a few posters label the author of this article a "Well known whackadoodle"; the article itself a " long winded rant"; [or whatever the descriptive adjective is chosen]. Jmodge compliments oilhammer with "nothing beats experience" yet dismisses Stephens experience. Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?!?



I had no personal experience with him nor his shop when it was up and running before he retired, but:

So for what it’s worth; in 1967, I got a job at the Mercedes-Benz dealer in Indianapolis. In those days, you could actually work your way through college. I was a Mechanic, Shop Foreman, & a Training Instructor. Finally, I was the Service Director for two Mercedes-Benz dealerships. Mercedes-Benz gave me the “Star Technician” award once & the “Mercedes-Benz Service Manager of the Year” award 5 times. Twenty-five years ago I started my own Mercedes-Benz shop. I retired at the end of 2017.


So with what looks to be 51 years of continuous MBZ servicing he would seem to be qualified to point out and list the nuances of this problem, which he has done.

I wonder if Jmodge and oilhammer read the entire, albeit lengthy, article? I did. I like long articles as it gives me a more clear understanding of what the individual author is trying to communicate. He certainly makes logical deductive conclusions given posited facts e.g. the tremendous heat generated by the under engine skid plate causing plastic and rubber lines to fail and cracking other valuable components relating to proper engine function; MBZ factory filling the sump with the same weight oil for the extreme cold of Canada to the heat of the desert southwest, and still recommending 20k oil change intervals! (and points out their incestuous relationship with Mobil, the oil company that fills the sump), He invites you to go to the Garrett turbocharger website [who makes the turbos for the blutec] FAQ section where he points out that the turbo should have its' own cooling system which it does not; I could go on and on.


It seems to me that this thorough article is not something to be looked at lightly should one be considering an upgrade from a TDI to a blutec or Sprinter.


YRMV...

Oilhammer is right, and it is a long winded rant. Don't you think it's odd that 99.9% of the info on the net slagging the bluetec Mercs comes from this one guy?
 

truman

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columbia,MO,usa
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'05 Passat Variant, Still miss the 03JW
MB World is littered with OM642 horror stories. There are more than a few long time MB owners who have sworn off the brand as a result. Stephens is not the lone naysayer.
 

turbobrick240

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And this forum is also littered with horror stories. That's basically the nature of these forums.
 

truman

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MB World
Bluetec horror stories far outnumber gasser horror stories. Bluetec owners want to love their diesel but the reality leaves a bitter taste. The koolaid is not so good.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
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Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Oilhammer may love the Sprinters but around here, they rust like nothing else. When I bought my van 4 years ago, Sprinters were excluded from consideration because of that.
 

cevans

TDIClub Enthusiast, TDI Parts Ninja Vendor , w/Bus
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Hingham, MA
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2015 Beetle Conv. TDI 6-Speed & 2006 E320 CDI
That guy is a well known whackadoodle.
I smelled the crazy the moment I opened the page...

I dislike articles/paragraphs etc. that are hard to comprehend and end with "Your engine will DIE UNLESS YOU BUY XX PRODUCT". There are so many people selling "Fixes" for stuff that isn't broken. The oil filter isn't broken. Just like hammer, I've seen and worked on more than a few 400k mile sprinters...so much for bad oil.

We sell a LOT of DPFs, and a LOT of heater kits. Those are certainly problems. Depending on your year, you might spend $1k-$3k on replacing the DPF.

I continue to maintain that the HIGHEST mileage engines are the ones that are DRIVEN and MAINTAINED correctly. No billet purple fancy oil line bypass filter micron auxiliary cooler heavy duty kits.
 
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cevans

TDIClub Enthusiast, TDI Parts Ninja Vendor , w/Bus
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2015 Beetle Conv. TDI 6-Speed & 2006 E320 CDI
They relocated the DEF tank on the later Sprinters, and I have not seen any issues with heaters on those versions. In fact, I have not seen ANY problem of ANY kind on the 4 cyl versions, which were sold here from 2014-2016. We service a fleet of them, and just landed another customer that has a bunch more of them.
The 4-cylinder models are really special - everything seems to be completely problem free. Workhorse of a motor, and, by the time we got it a very matured engine that had been in Europe for more than 10 years.
 

ApriliaNut

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06 pkg 1 Jetta 191k w/Malone Stage 2
Oilhammer is right, and it is a long winded rant. Don't you think it's odd that 99.9% of the info on the net slagging the bluetec Mercs comes from this one guy?

Methinks you exaggerate the percentage for effect...:rolleyes:


Perhaps Mr. Stephens is just a "type A" when it comes to trying to help out his fellow man who has been given a raw deal by MBZ, after purchasing what factually looks like a terribly designed automobile in the major areas that matter most, and does little to help out the consumer as far as TSB's, service bulletins, and other corrective measures go. [Probably b/c they are such a small percentage of their total sales volume].
 

turbobrick240

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Methinks you exaggerate the percentage for effect...:rolleyes:
Perhaps Mr. Stephens is just a "type A" when it comes to trying to help out his fellow man who has been given a raw deal by MBZ, after purchasing what factually looks like a terribly designed automobile in the major areas that matter most, and does little to help out the consumer as far as TSB's, service bulletins, and other corrective measures go. [Probably b/c they are such a small percentage of their total sales volume].
Well, maybe he is Ghandi reincarnated ;). But, to me, his spiel comes across as more of a vendetta than a public service. Really can't blame the guy for preferring to wrench on the OM606 and older diesels though.
 

ApriliaNut

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Well, maybe he is Ghandi reincarnated ;). But, to me, his spiel comes across as more of a vendetta than a public service. Really can't blame the guy for preferring to wrench on the OM606 and older diesels though.

Your attempts at humor are, just that: attempts.
 

ApriliaNut

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https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/fatal-flaw-mercedes-benz-sprinters-tom-robertson


Another article, this time about the Sprinter van unit, which components the subject of this article are the same for the sedan model I presume.

I'm sure someone will correct me if that is wrong.

Pretty eye opening.

Looks like my interest in a Mercedes diesel sedan will be relegated to the 2005-2006 model years, if at all.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
Unfortunately, the intarwebs have a tendency to exaggerate the bad things, and skim right past the good (or, the "not bad"). And they often do not give good context as to the issue being discussed. You don't hear much about Toyota's GR engine problems, yet on any given day at the Lexus dealer where I worked (and one of my best buddies still works) there are several of those engines splayed out in pieces due to any number of major mechanical failures. If you walked into that shop, you'd swear off owning any modern Lexus too. We just had one in here that had a whole 17k miles on it that was in need of rings, it fit squarely into the TSB regarding the problem it was having. Yet I'll bet a lot of people would swear the IS250 is a "good" car. ;)
 

ApriliaNut

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Unfortunately, the intarwebs have a tendency to exaggerate the bad things, and skim right past the good (or, the "not bad"). And they often do not give good context as to the issue being discussed. You don't hear much about Toyota's GR engine problems, yet on any given day at the Lexus dealer where I worked (and one of my best buddies still works) there are several of those engines splayed out in pieces due to any number of major mechanical failures. If you walked into that shop, you'd swear off owning any modern Lexus too. We just had one in here that had a whole 17k miles on it that was in need of rings, it fit squarely into the TSB regarding the problem it was having. Yet I'll bet a lot of people would swear the IS250 is a "good" car. ;)

Good points all oilhammer. And yes the web does seem to hi light the negative.

I started this thread because, as a replacement for my 06 Jetta [no complaints at all here] I've been torn between the 335d and the larger MBZ blutec as both have gotten "affordable" [at least to me with what I'm willing to "take a chance on" purchase wise they being used] with the 335 a bit more so. And in my due diligence I found the article which I wanted feedback on.

Curiously, I have found very little negative wise, especially pertaining to the engine, on the 05-06 iterations of the E series diesel.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
If I could find one, and I could afford it, I'd seek out a 2014-2016 E250 with the OM651 2.1L 4cyl diesel engine. It is an uptuned version of the one in my Sprinter, and is an EXCELLENT engine. Not that the V6 is bad, but I think the 4 is better. Simpler, more efficient, easier to service. Surprisingly capable.

The older E-class with the 3.2L I6 does not have all the same emissions equipment, so it of course can cross any potential issues with those right off the list. The car itself is probably slightly worse in some respects compared to the newer ones, but not likely anything drastic and obviously a decade's worth of wear and tear and mileage could also change things too.
 

jmodge

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Hey, don't get bent all out of shape, and yes I did read your post also.


I know you didn't comment nor voice an opinion, I was just wondering if you read the entire thing, that's all.



Where, exactly did I misquote you?


Perhaps I should have used the term "by inference" when stating that you seem to dismiss Stephens experience whilst agreeing with Oilhammer. My apologies if I was unclear and by no means was it my intention to misquote anyone.



Thanks for the proof reading. Spelling corrected!


I still think this is a very useful article for potential purchase of one of these Blutecs. Were I to do so, I would certainly get rid of that underpan, and design and install a dedicated turbo cooling system! ;)
Ok, I will not be bent out of shape.
I read Stephens article a year or two back when I was considering my options so I could leave the shop. It turned me off the Sprinters at the time. I've talked to a few people with them and nothing I heard would convince me to, or totally put me off buying a used one. Never bought a van, but I left the shop anyway. Not sure if I will buy a van or truck for transport, but I know I don't want to trade reliability for efficiency.
Even though the internet and blogs are full of useful info, I believe the best way to wade through it all is to talk to and see people who have the experience to confirm or dispute information. I did not intend to disregard or disrespect your post.
 

ApriliaNut

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Ok, I will not be bent out of shape.
I read Stephens article a year or two back when I was considering my options so I could leave the shop. It turned me off the Sprinters at the time. I've talked to a few people with them and nothing I heard would convince me to, or totally put me off buying a used one. Never bought a van, but I left the shop anyway. Not sure if I will buy a van or truck for transport, but I know I don't want to trade reliability for efficiency.
Even though the internet and blogs are full of useful info, I believe the best way to wade through it all is to talk to and see people who have the experience to confirm or dispute information. I did not intend to disregard or disrespect your post.



:D I agree.



I like what Oilhammer said about the 4 cylinders above...but alas, those are WAY out of my price range lol!!



Oh well, like I said, my 06 runs like a scalded cat since I did the Malone stage 2 tune a little over a year ago!!



Saw 150HP and 215 lbs of torque on my Ultragage https://www.ultra-gauge.com/ultragauge/ [assuming it's accurate] when I hammered it after the install!


Hope this doesn't describe me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSF-T5gwdxU HA!
 
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