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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old October 19th, 2017, 18:23   #3376
turbocharged798
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Depends on what you mean by 'value'. Negative pricing is becoming more and more common on the grid largely due to wind. Utilities literally pay to get rid of energy.

Lots of wind generation expected tonight. Almost certainly gonna see negative pricing in the midwest.
Negative pricing is because solar and wind caused the grid to get so f-ed up the utility companies do not know what to do. That is NOT a good thing.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 18:58   #3377
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When I was growing up in New Zealand my dad had our electricity on demand system with the power company for water heater and furnace. We got a lower rate for that power as compensation for them being able to remotely turn the appliances off. Main reason it worked so well was the wet back fireplace - the water plumbing cycled through a loop embedded in the fireplace. Most of the winter we had the fire going for heating and byproduct was hot water.
I heard about CA power companies being able to shut off compatible appliances to balance peak load. Give me a decent discount and I'm on board for that.
Jason
That has been present for decades - what is new in the newer systems is integration with the thermostat. Instead of simply turning off the unit for an hour or more, it enforces a setback on the thermostat - this is a MUCH more controlled system, and will result in a much higher volunteer rate (the current systems are showing lower and lower enrollment, because it doesn't take long during one of the events for temperatures in the home to get up to 90F (these events are often triggered near peak solar intensity and over 110F ouside). Setting the thermostat back to 80F is a far more acceptable scenario than simply shutting it off.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 18:59   #3378
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Negative pricing is because solar and wind caused the grid to get so f-ed up the utility companies do not know what to do. That is NOT a good thing.
Sounds like we need more electric vehicles with connected chargers, doesn't it.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 19:20   #3379
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Sounds like we need more electric vehicles with connected chargers, doesn't it.
Precisely
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Old October 19th, 2017, 22:41   #3380
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My estimates were based on the US average. I agree they don't hold North of ~45 degrees but most people don't live that far North. I never claimed it applied to everyone. I said ON AVERAGE.
I caught that the first time. On average. Got it. Thanks.

Check that map again.

A solar generation site located in Edmonton (just north of Calgary by the way) produces more energy "on average" than ones located in Boston, New York, Chicago, and Detroit. Degrees latitude is one metric for solar output, but not the only one.

New York is the highest populated city in the US. It would appear that based on my results, "on average" solar production may not apply there either. At least we're in good company. We love New York.

I'd love to debate this further, but it's time to hitch up the team. Need to go hunt polar bears and finish building my igloo.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 22:56   #3381
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I caught that the first time. On average. Got it. Thanks.
Check that map again.
A solar generation site located in Edmonton (just north of Calgary by the way) produces more energy "on average" than ones located in Boston, New York, Chicago, and Detroit. Degrees latitude is one metric for solar output, but not the only one.
New York is the highest populated city in the US. It would appear that based on my results, "on average" solar production may not apply there either. At least we're in good company. We love New York.
Yes. Boston, New York, Chicago and Detroit are below average. Places like Denver and Atlanta would be Average while San Diego and Albuquerque would be above average. Glad we devoted 2 pages to agree on reality.

Like I said. The US ANNUAL AVERAGE is ~4.5 full hour per day. Not N America. Not Canada. Not Everyone. The US ANNUAL AVERAGE. Not sure what point you're trying to make. If it's that solar won't work as well for some people as it does for other I agree...... I've never claimed anything to the contrary....

Last edited by nwdiver; October 19th, 2017 at 23:12.
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Old Yesterday, 05:10   #3382
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Negative pricing is because solar and wind caused the grid to get so f-ed up the utility companies do not know what to do. That is NOT a good thing.
Hydro, not solar and wind: http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2017/08/28...ricity-prices/

Solar does create a massive supply increase during the day, but typically, in the American grid, negative pricing happens at night, when there's zero solar - solar's supply increase nearly coincides with a demand increase.

And, ultimately, negative prices can act as an economic incentive for companies to help stabilize the grid - manufacturers can schedule electrical demand-causing activity to occur during times of negative pricing, things like ice storage HVAC and hot water storage systems can be activated (reducing demand later in the day), and energy companies can react to negative pricing by taking energy off the grid into things like battery and pumped hydro storage (and then sell it back to the grid later during times of high demand and low supply, avoiding usage of inefficient peaker plants - add enough storage, and you won't need peakers or base load, storage can take both of those roles).
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Old Yesterday, 05:31   #3383
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My question is, as it always has been, it would seem the OBVIOUS most useful purpose for solar would be on site commercial (or residential) linking to A/C systems. More sun = more available power, and more available power is needed because the heat load is higher, and when the heat load is higher, you need more cooling capacity!

And these could be setup on rooftops and be not attached to the grid if you like. They just work to counteract the heat load to maintain comfortable temps in the building.

Simple, but there must be some reason why this method is not employed much. There has to be a downside. What is it?
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Old Yesterday, 06:05   #3384
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One problem is that there is a few hours delay between the solar peak and the demand peak - the sun keeps adding energy to the system even after the solar peak, and there's other non-AC demand increasing in the afternoon (cooking and entertainment being some examples).

That said, ice storage can handle that peak shifting easily enough. (Basically, make ice with any surplus energy, then use that ice later when energy demand exceeds supply.) Ice storage systems are a relatively new technology, but are just now being scaled down to residential scale.

https://www.ice-energy.com/ is a company that has pushed it down to that residential scale, I wonder what the pricing is on those systems. (They claim that in some areas, the utilities will actually just straight-up provide a unit to a building owner for free, because the utilities themselves get benefit from them being on the grid, as they can be controlled by the utility to manage demand.)
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Old Yesterday, 08:41   #3385
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My question is, as it always has been, it would seem the OBVIOUS most useful purpose for solar would be on site commercial (or residential) linking to A/C systems. More sun = more available power, and more available power is needed because the heat load is higher, and when the heat load is higher, you need more cooling capacity!
And these could be setup on rooftops and be not attached to the grid if you like. They just work to counteract the heat load to maintain comfortable temps in the building.
Simple, but there must be some reason why this method is not employed much. There has to be a downside. What is it?
The reason is that there would be no benefit vs a grid-tied system. A grid-tied system can power other electrical loads on cool days when A/C isn't needed or your neighbors house if you're on vacation.
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Old Yesterday, 09:53   #3386
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Not sure what point you're trying to make.
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300w is pretty standard these days. 3 miles/kWh is about average for an EV. 10 panels would be 3kW. The US average solar insolation is ~4.5 full hours of sun per day. 3kW x 4.5hours/day = 13.5kWh/day. That's 4927.5kWh/yr or enough energy to drive ~14800 miles per year ON AVERAGE.
Since you asked, the point is that you make assumptions like the one above that are overly optimistic and/or biased towards furthering an agenda, and without context. You then end up having to backpedal on those assumptions when they don't hold up under scrutiny based on actual data like mine. When caught, you hide behind a technicality like "on average" when the actual, real world results (in large US cities like New York, Boston, Chicago, etc) may be 50% less than the "ON AVERAGE" figure you're leading people to believe.

This isn't a question about about solar working better for some than it does for others, it's about being straight with people, and setting realistic expectations.
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Old Yesterday, 10:14   #3387
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This isn't a question about about solar working better for some than it does for others, it's about being straight with people, and setting realistic expectations.
??? LOL... Please specify exactly which part of my statement was misleading, unrealistic or incorrect. I repeatedly stressed it was the 'US Average' you appear to be alone in taking exception to this. Would you have preferred 3-7 full hours of sun? Would that have met your high standards?

No backpedaling or assumptions... the US receives ~4.5 full hours of sun per day on average... that's just a fact.

Here's some real world data from a 11kW system I recently installed... I look forward to your retort that this isn't 'Average'.... LOL



OR better yet... How would YOU explain the viability of solar to the AVERAGE person living in the US.

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Old Yesterday, 19:20   #3388
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4.5 hours of full sunlight per day avg. sounds pretty reasonable to me for the US. That's what I get at 44 N, in Maine.

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Old Today, 13:04   #3389
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Originally Posted by Oilerlord View Post
Since you asked, the point is that you make assumptions like the one above that are overly optimistic and/or biased towards furthering an agenda, and without context. You then end up having to backpedal on those assumptions when they don't hold up under scrutiny based on actual data like mine. When caught, you hide behind a technicality like "on average" when the actual, real world results (in large US cities like New York, Boston, Chicago, etc) may be 50% less than the "ON AVERAGE" figure you're leading people to believe.

This isn't a question about about solar working better for some than it does for others, it's about being straight with people, and setting realistic expectations.
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??? LOL... Please specify exactly which part of my statement was misleading, unrealistic or incorrect. I repeatedly stressed it was the 'US Average' you appear to be alone in taking exception to this. Would you have preferred 3-7 full hours of sun? Would that have met your high standards?

No backpedaling or assumptions... the US receives ~4.5 full hours of sun per day on average... that's just a fact.

Here's some real world data from a 11kW system I recently installed... I look forward to your retort that this isn't 'Average'.... LOL



OR better yet... How would YOU explain the viability of solar to the AVERAGE person living in the US.

Youre both pretty. Please stop.
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