Eastern USA Local discussions for those in the Eastern USA. (Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Maine, Washington, DC. New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, West Virginia) |
January 11th, 2018, 15:17
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#46
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TDIClub Enthusiast Veteran Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Nashua, NH, USA
Fuel Economy: Who cares? It's a DIESEL! Great fuel economy comes as a bonus!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubTDI
While this year seems to be particularly bad for gelling, the fueling infrastructure has never been great. From algae to water to gelling and beyond, there have been cautionary tales and horror stories about fueling in the US for as long as I can remember.
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The algae in diesel fuel is anaerobic bacteria. No Oxygen is needed (anaerobic), only food (hydrocarbons in diesel fuel) and WATER  are needed. Bacteria feeds on the fuel and growth will be limited by the available water in the fuel. Avoiding water in diesel fuel will prevent anaerobic bacteria growth.
Fueling up ONLY at high diesel turnover stations along major routes will help prevent these problems. Go where the big rigs go to fuel up.
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January 11th, 2018, 17:13
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#47
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TDIClub Enthusiast Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Join Date: Jun 1998
Location: Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
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Although that is not diesel road fuel, it is also not ice and not water contamination.
'nuff said.
__________________
If the quantity of carbonic acid increases in geometric progression,
the augmentation of the temperature will increase nearly in arithmetic progression.
Svante Arrhenius 1896
Cogito ergo soy (I think, therefore: Biodiesel)
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January 11th, 2018, 17:35
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#48
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TDIClub Enthusiast Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Join Date: Jun 1998
Location: Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyBees
.... I have often thought maybe diesel fuel might hold "moisture" in suspension, similar to humidity in the air. If so, at what temp does it "frost" out? Where does it frost out, in the tank, on the inside of the fuel lines, in the filter? Or, if it does in fact contain water in suspension, will it frost out?
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Petro diesel does not retain much water. Water will tend to settle out in a layer. The water that separated out and sank to the bottom of the filter will freeze, but the fuel will still flow above that.
Biodiesel is very hygroscopic. It will adsorb and hold great amounts of water in suspension.
A bio/petro blend that would be good to 0F with "dry" bio, might be only good to 25F. Don't forget, that the bio will adsorb any water that were in the petro. The water separator that would retain the water from petro only, won't catch water when the bio has in effect locked the water within and between its molecules.
The wet bio fuel will freeze in the tank, lines, filter, but usually the lines are the plug point due to the large area to volume ratio.
Water is probably not a big concern for most, as most don't run bio as I do.
__________________
If the quantity of carbonic acid increases in geometric progression,
the augmentation of the temperature will increase nearly in arithmetic progression.
Svante Arrhenius 1896
Cogito ergo soy (I think, therefore: Biodiesel)
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January 12th, 2018, 07:37
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#49
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Annapolis, MD & The Berkshires, MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powder Hound
But this winter, I'm having troubles with worn ignition switches dying in the cold. In my wife's 2 cars, anyway. My 4-dr I'm the original purchaser, and I've never hung other keys on the fob. Hers - we don't know their history, but judging by the feel, previous owners have been hanging their workout barbells on the fob. Subsequently, on the coldest mornings, we are seeing ignition switch refusals to start.
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PH-What's the relationship between the temp and the ignition switch working/not working?
__________________
Now: 03 Golf GLS TDI 5SPD & (hers) 03 Jetta GLS TDI 5SPD
Then: 99 Jetta GLS TDI, 94 Golf GL, 85 Golf GL, 85 Golf, 79 Rabbit C, 68 Beetle, 65 Beetle
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January 12th, 2018, 07:46
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#50
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: South of Boston
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A co-worker was having what he thought were problems with his ignition switch on his '02 Golf earlier this week. Turns out it was a weak battery.
__________________
2002 Jetta wagon, 362K, RC3+; 1993 Mercedes-Benz 300D 2.5, 197K; 1997 Passat, 285K; '99.5 Golf, 257K; 2011 335d, 56K; 2015 Golf Sportwagen, 8K. Principal, http://www.idparts.com
Kid's cars: 2002 Golf TDI, 2002 Jetta TDI
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January 12th, 2018, 18:16
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#51
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Burlington Vt
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I thought my ignition switch was bad so I replaced it. A while later it randomly refused to start again. I replaced the battery cables and it hasn't happened since. Battery is what affects the ignition switch in cold weather, due to being weak or having loose/corroded connection.
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January 14th, 2018, 15:26
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#52
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Conkud, New Hampshiyuh, USA
Fuel Economy: pretty freakin' good.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hskrdu
PH-What's the relationship between the temp and the ignition switch working/not working?
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I had troubles when the temp (absolute, not counting any wind chill) was -5F or lower on the Jetta, the one I fixed. The NB was probably more like -8F or lower.
The one with the most wear was resolved with a new OEM switch, and the other's (the NB TDI) wear was not as bad and has only displayed one no-start episode. I figure as long as my wife doesn't have that happen to her, I won't have to replace it for quite a while (several years) as we're planning on moving south later this year. (I.e. we probably won't be seeing temps this cold after this winter, ever again.)
And the batteries in both of those cars are great - one is 3 months old and the other is about 18 months old. They're both Deka built 'Duracell' branded batteries, AGM, very high RC indicating at least 80 AH capacity (for the one, slightly smaller for the NB because it can't fit a group 49 size) sold by Sam's Club. Since the Jetta with the replaced switch is working perfectly now, I think it was the switch, not the battery. And if it goes dead when you turn it to crank, and then it cranks when you push the key forward, then it probably isn't the battery. This behavior demonstrates internal wear in the switch (IMO, of course - seems logical, anyway). If it has this kind of wear, and cranks anyway, then it is probably arcing inside, and could get really exciting. You might be smelling it in that case.
Anyway, if it was just a slow crank, I would never have played with the ignition switch. But to me, the going completely dead with no solenoid clicks or dash lights when the key was turned to crank, then cranking when the key was pushed forward, says ignition switch.
Cheers,
PH
__________________
You always pay for what you get. Sometimes you get what you pay for.
It is called dope because it does make you dumb.
Thinking outside the box is difficult for some. They're afraid they'll fall off the edge of the box and be lost to oblivion.
Last edited by Powder Hound; January 14th, 2018 at 15:40.
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January 15th, 2018, 08:10
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#53
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin
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I hate to ask the question, but why are posts involving ignition switches in a thread titled "Boston Area Gel Issues"? For others to find information on ignition switches in the future, they likely won't look in a thread with this title.
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January 15th, 2018, 09:47
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#54
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TDI Owner/Operator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: NW IN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93celicaconv
I hate to ask the question, but why are posts involving ignition switches in a thread titled "Boston Area Gel Issues"? For others to find information on ignition switches in the future, they likely won't look in a thread with this title.
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I understand your logic here but it's also relevant that a failing ignition switch or weak battery can have same effect as gelled fuel - as in vehicle won't start (or will fail on road in case of weak battery or gelled fuel) which is the main concern under discussion here. Many threads here and elsewhere tend to get some "thread drift".
Also, if one searches for keywords here about ignition switches this thread should pop up in the search results. Note I said keywords, not searching for thread subject - there is a difference!
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January 15th, 2018, 15:09
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#55
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Annapolis, MD & The Berkshires, MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powder Hound
I had troubles when the temp (absolute, not counting any wind chill) was -5F or lower on the Jetta, the one I fixed. The NB was probably more like -8F or lower.
The one with the most wear was resolved with a new OEM switch, and the other's (the NB TDI) wear was not as bad and has only displayed one no-start episode.
And the batteries in both of those cars are great - one is 3 months old and the other is about 18 months old... And if it goes dead when you turn it to crank, and then it cranks when you push the key forward, then it probably isn't the battery. This behavior demonstrates internal wear in the switch (IMO, of course - seems logical, anyway). If it has this kind of wear, and cranks anyway, then it is probably arcing inside, and could get really exciting. You might be smelling it in that case.
Anyway, if it was just a slow crank, I would never have played with the ignition switch. But to me, the going completely dead with no solenoid clicks or dash lights when the key was turned to crank, then cranking when the key was pushed forward, says ignition switch. Cheers,
PH
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Thanks PH. I agree with your diagnosis- The troubleshooting for a NSC points to ignition switch under the circumstances you describe.
My question was more about the relationship between the temp and the switch. I was thinking that a failing switch would show itself regardless of temp, while fuel gelling as a cause of a NSC would (obviously) only take place in bitter temps, and weak battery as cause of a NSC is much more likely during cold temps.
__________________
Now: 03 Golf GLS TDI 5SPD & (hers) 03 Jetta GLS TDI 5SPD
Then: 99 Jetta GLS TDI, 94 Golf GL, 85 Golf GL, 85 Golf, 79 Rabbit C, 68 Beetle, 65 Beetle
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January 15th, 2018, 15:17
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#56
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Annapolis, MD & The Berkshires, MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93celicaconv
I hate to ask the question, but why are posts involving ignition switches in a thread titled "Boston Area Gel Issues"? For others to find information on ignition switches in the future, they likely won't look in a thread with this title.
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If Fred's kept threads restricted to title content, instead of relevant associated topics, we'd all be stuck with only a few solutions to a problem. Powder Hound mentioned ignition switches as one portion of his NSC, such that some members thinking they have a gelling issue, might be enlightened to discover that they have a different issue altogether. Does this help bt (the OP)? No, not unless his issue is other than gelling, but it may help many others who still use a key to start the car and find they have the problem that PH described. I can't count the number of times I thought I knew what the source of a problem was, only for a good thread to lead me to the actual culprit.
__________________
Now: 03 Golf GLS TDI 5SPD & (hers) 03 Jetta GLS TDI 5SPD
Then: 99 Jetta GLS TDI, 94 Golf GL, 85 Golf GL, 85 Golf, 79 Rabbit C, 68 Beetle, 65 Beetle
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January 15th, 2018, 15:43
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#57
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hskrdu
If Fred's kept threads restricted to title content, instead of relevant associated topics, we'd all be stuck with only a few solutions to a problem. Powder Hound mentioned ignition switches as one portion of his NSC, such that some members thinking they have a gelling issue, might be enlightened to discover that they have a different issue altogether. Does this help bt (the OP)? No, not unless his issue is other than gelling, but it may help many others who still use a key to start the car and find they have the problem that PH described. I can't count the number of times I thought I knew what the source of a problem was, only for a good thread to lead me to the actual culprit.
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Yes, when you look at it as you explained, it does make sense. Appreciate the inputs.
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January 17th, 2018, 10:57
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#58
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Conkud, New Hampshiyuh, USA
Fuel Economy: pretty freakin' good.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hskrdu
Thanks PH. I agree with your diagnosis- The troubleshooting for a NSC points to ignition switch under the circumstances you describe.
My question was more about the relationship between the temp and the switch. I was thinking that a failing switch would show itself regardless of temp, while fuel gelling as a cause of a NSC would (obviously) only take place in bitter temps, and weak battery as cause of a NSC is much more likely during cold temps.
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I agree. In my case, I theorize that it might have to do with the differences between the coefficient of expansion at low temps - what a slight amount of wear will do when it gets cold, even though it works fine at 30 or 40 degrees warmer. That might be a contributor to the weak battery cause - if the battery is marginal, a little more resistance during the glow cycle, and the battery voltage dropping just enough that it can't bridge a wear-caused gap. It is hard to say, and it would probably take a lot more resources than any of us have to figure it all out under controlled conditions.
__________________
You always pay for what you get. Sometimes you get what you pay for.
It is called dope because it does make you dumb.
Thinking outside the box is difficult for some. They're afraid they'll fall off the edge of the box and be lost to oblivion.
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