auto to 5spd manual swap, transmission knocking noise

Hey Guys,

I Just fired off a message to Frans at Dutch Auto Parts about a knocking noise from one of his transmissions I just finished installing.
However, with the time differences it may take a day or so for him to get back to me.

I have DUK 5spd transmission.

I am pretty sure even a transmission with no fluids in it should not be making these knocking noises.

I am open to suggesting that I am possibly way off base, so your feedback and opinions are what I am looking for here.

Does anyone know he if ships the transmissions dry? I can't see any marks on the drain plug from draining it.

I am hoping to avoid throwing $90 worth of tranny fluid in just to find it is a transmission issue.

I went to the point of testing up on jack stands and even when I stall the driver side wheel by hand from turning in
3rd gear at idle I still hear the knocking and feel a corresponding pulsing in sync with the noise.

Initially I headed for a test drive and returned back to my garage after about 300 yards or less at 10kmh as the noise
and pulsing was feeling like it could possiblly lead to some kind of failure. It definetly gets worse as speed is increased.

So you drove this without knowing if the transmission has gear oil in it? Am I correct?

Did you take out the fill plug to check the fluid level?

Petesaguytdi said:

Hey Guys,

I Just fired off a message to Frans at Dutch Auto Parts about a knocking noise from one of his transmissions I just finished installing.
However, with the time differences it may take a day or so for him to get back to me.

I have DUK 5spd transmission.

I am pretty sure even a transmission with no fluids in it should be making these knocking noises.

I am open to suggesting that I am possibly way off base, so your feedback and opinions are what I am looking for here.

Does anyone know he if ships the transmissions dry? I can't see any marks on the drain plug from draining it.

I am hoping to avoid throwing $90 worth of tranny fluid in just to find it is a transmission issue.

I went to the point of testing up on jack stands and even when I stall the driver side wheel by hand from turning in
3rd gear at idle I still hear the knocking and feel a corresponding pulsing in sync with the noise.

Initially I headed for a test drive and returned back to my garage after about 300 yards or less at 10kmh as the noise
and pulsing was feeling like it could possiblly lead to some kind of failure. It definetly gets worse as speed is increased.

Click to expand...

They have to be shipped dry. So didn't you check the fluid level? Even if it wasn't shipped dry I would use the opportunity of transmission replacement as a good time to change out the fluid. You really have no idea when the last time the fluid was changed anyway.

Seriously?

Nash_TDI said:

Seriously?

Click to expand...

This is kinda what I was thinking too...

So my question then with all the OMG replies is what would start such a sound within the first few feet of moving. I simply had to drive far enough to turn around and come back to my garage.

What I don't know is how the eps system works on a standard as that would be the only possible thing I can think of that cause something to happen so instantly.

The other question would be hypothetical. If for instance your tranny was running fine and then the cases took a hit and all the fluid drained out, how long could it run for?

So please easy on the major fail comments and if you can please advise from experience if this tranny should be dead within a few feet of moving with no fluids.

I find it hard to believe. I could not see any signs of tool marks on the drain plug so assumed it had fluid still in there.

An additional observation: in reverse the sound goes away.

I will be checking if there is fluid in there tonight and advise.

Thanks for the replies so far as I really need to understand where this is leading.

Peter

I know what of the original O2Ms Ryanp sent over was put in with no fluid. It ended up cooking all the bearings, but was driven way more than yours, just not sure how far. I got to see it in person and it was ugly. He ended up red tagging all of the trans saying no fluid after that.

THREAD IN QUESTION

I can say from experience (not on a vw), that a FWD manual transmission, completely drained of fluid. made it 30 km in my local hilly city before the synchros became much less effective and one of the bearings started to whine. It was filled with the appropriate fluid and lived several more years like that.

You're shy on the actual details for your transmission.

If you started the engine and moved the car a few feet, the residual oil on the gears and bearings should prevent any damage. If taken down the road under load... All bets are off.

Have you checked and or filled the transmission fluid yet?

I would expect that the gears in the transmission would clatter a lot more without the gear oil to cushion them, as any gear not in use will be freewheeling around with no load.

Fill / top-up the transmission with a GL4+ oil and see if the noise goes away.

At the very least check the actual fluid level and report back.

^^Ditto

yeh filling up tonight and doing a video of the draining. If it somehow made it over to me filled that would sure ease my mind. I didn't think these transmisison were much different than others and as many can see on the internet many people have driven a manual for quite a few miles when low on fluid without incident.

The only reason for an instant failure I could think is if the transmission were flushed with a solvent to remove any residual gear oil. Pretty sure that would not be the case

Just another 6 hours at my day job and I will tackle this and post up the outcome.

Thanks all.

You transmission was shipped dry. I have bought dozens from Frans.

Petesaguytdi said:

yeh filling up tonight and doing a video of the draining. If it somehow made it over to me filled that would sure ease my mind. I didn't think these transmisison were much different than others and as many can see on the internet many people have driven a manual for quite a few miles when low on fluid without incident.

Click to expand...

Low, Yes. Empty? Nope.

Low fluid will still splash and lube bearings and gears. Empty transmissions aren't that lucky.

Does the noise lessen or go away when you push in the clutch?

vwztips, sorry can't answer that question with full confidence, but I think the answer is yes, because in neutral it did not make the noise and I just now pulled the drain plug.

However, my suspicions that the tranny was never emptied was bang on.
Remember above I mentioned the corrosion around the plug that led me to
believe the nut had not been turned in eons.

I have no idea if Frans does all the wrenching himself on these, my quess is no, and this one slipped out without being emptied.

It was full to the rim and right now I am just letting the residuals drip out. So this tranny arrived with some issues already.

I will let Frans know and see what the next step is. At this point I really wish I had a hoist and not have to pull the engine to replace this.

Thanks all, I am sure Frans will come through as it was his reputation that led me to purchase from him in the first place.

I'll let you all know.

Fwiw, I have received 3 or 4 gearboxes still filled, but the rest have been emptied

vwztips,

Thanks for that tidbit.

lesson learned here though, the small amount of time to check would have saved a lot of concerns if done in the first place.

Thanks

So Frans has a little weekend project for me of pulling the differential cover. Not sure where this leads after that. If it is a blown bearing or sleeve, not sure I would want to keep this in my car.

I guess I will be checking for shrapnel or any obvious defects in the differntial area.

300m at 10km/h will not do anything to a drained transmission. Even if hough it was drained, it will have some oil left in it that will keep the internals intact.

Is this sound closer to a knocking, whining, tapping, growling?

Ok people,

just finished pulling the differential and not see what I would consider to be any major concerns there.

You can see the magnet pickup at the back (passenger side) has a bit of wear material there, but no
big chunks or what I would think is unusual where. I'm not however overly experienced on what is
normal.

I was willing to try pulling this with the transmission still in the car as I figure if there was something wrong in there
at least I could just swap the diff.

I truly did not expect to find anything in the differential as was noted before the sound is
not there in reverse.

I did get through to 3rd gear as a test and can confirm the first 3 gears were
affected. I did not wish to push my luck and possibly lock up a transmission and have the car stuck in my
alley by trying 4 or 5 as I was keeping my run as short as possible.

Follow my links below to see the condition of things.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByNjehUx62NgRDZvNXVJaUxzSE0
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByNjehUx62NgSzhYVlhiR0Vrc0k
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByNjehUx62NgTnh6ZDM1aEFIYUU
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByNjehUx62NgV19rTUR4cUdWcjA
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByNjehUx62NgYkt5RjVic1hJWTQ

Thoughts?

cv?

Doubt it, my diagnosis when up on stands with wheels free wheeling was to listen to the sound with the left or the right side tires held in position to see if there was a particular side creating the sound.

Both outer cv's were definitely good as I had repacked both those myself recently. The Inner cv's came from what Frans sent me, but again it didn't matter which side I held from spinning the sound was always there.

I suppose there is a very slight chance that I was sent two defective inner cv joints, but from my experience it is is pretty much always the outer ones going, likely because they have to deal with the higher steering angles.

I am Personally going on 15 years now with vw front wheel drive cars and yet to have an inner cv fail.

Pretty tech savvy myself, just not so much with transmission diagnosis though, so feeling the crowd for ideas.

Appreciate the the feedback, to define it a bit, the sound I have been hearing is definitely different than the sound that you get from a failing cv and does not alter with steering pitch at all.

I have no idea what would cause a cyclical thumping from the drive train that is not apparent in reverse or neutral.

Keep the ideas coming!

QuickTD,

It does increase with speed. However right now it is all in pieces with the deferential removed.

I don't really want to rebuild and attach the axles for testing at this point.

Wish I had a hoist, just axle stands

Frans will hopefully get back to me sometime in the next 12 hours.

I can see if the differential was toast then an easy fix would have been to ship one out.

Since he is overseas I was more than willing to do a bit of digging.

However I am in Alberta and to quote Game of Thrones, "Winter is Coming"

I Need this installed and running before the snow flies.

No lift in my garage so replacing this is a huge PITA

Before you took it apart, did you drive it? if so how far?

If not, have all of the noises been under a no-load situation?

You describe above that the noise occurs whether you hold one wheel or the other, good for eliminating driveshafts, but holding a wheel makes the spider gears work excessively, and causes other noises.

If it were mine, I would put the diff back in, fill it with some cheap diff 75w90 and go for a drive - to listen for when the noise happens in each gear.

Hey Windex,

I drove it maybe 200 ft (5 houses down on 40 foot lots) and turned around afraid to have the tranny lock up and leave me blocking my narrow alley.

I reasembled the differential and tested as Frans asked me too with no axles attached and also checked for any pinion gear shaft play. Nothing seems off there.

So without the inertia load from the axles and wheels gone there are no noises similar to what I heard before.

I am thinking the weight of the wheels in tandem with the diesel pulsations brings out the noise when on the stands with no other load.

However when I test drove the sound was instant the moment I started rolling. I noticed it within the first 10 feet of moving.

I checked both drive shafts and can't find any obvious slop on the inner cv's. The outers were know good taken from my old automatic setup.

So appears now any testing without the wheels attached may be a waste of time.

Seems to me to be honest at this point any more testing is a waste of time and money.

I assumed I was buying a good used transmission, ie covers pulled and things checked. Not a luck of the draw
transmission. I guess I made an assumption on my part.

I have asked Frans 3 times now what his intentions are if this is not fixable and he diverts the question to test this or that.

Up till now those requests have made sense and could have worked in my best interests,
but I still would like to know if he intends me to eat the cost of this transmission.

Hopefully what has been tried so far is enough to clearly show there are internal issues with this transmission.

So for today's trouble shooting I will be running an axle and wheel per side independently to see if one or the other or both cause the sound to reappear.

Hoping maybe as hard as it is to believe that there is a defective axle/cv combination
causing the issue.

Wheel bearings fell ok?

Turns out the culprit in all this was found when testing the axles. Without the wheels attached I could hear a slight thud as the driver side axle was turning.

Outer surface of the brakes looked ok for sitting for over a year. but the inner side was a different matter. Looked almost like the pads had absorbed some rust. Sanded down the rotors and filed the rust off the pads.

Tested in 5th gear and gave it some good speed and sounded like the sounds were much improved. Put the wheels back on and the sound was 99% gone.

Took it for a road test and seems to be good now aside from crappy braking till the pads can set back in.

Thanks everyone for the input as it kept me on track seeking the source. The transmission seems to be a resonating box that amplifies sound and made it very difficult to picture the sound coming off the brakes.

So glad I don't have to pull the transmission.

Cheers, Peter

So, it was a rusty brake rotor?

Windex said:

So, it was a rusty brake rotor?

Click to expand...

Sounds that way.