Appears to be a Fix for Gen 1 cars! Gen 2-3 are Software.

Tankbuster

Well-known member
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Aug 21, 2016
Location
Tennessee
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2011 Jetta TDI
On my 2011 TDI if VW replaces my DPF I'm much more likely to do the fix. If not more likely to do the buy out and get a 1.4t Jetta.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
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Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
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2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
Gen 3 required faster urea / SCR consumption. Correct? They faced either more diesel to the LNT, or boosting SCR, to get NOx down. The problem with running lean (efficient) is it leads to greater NOx, not less, as I understand it.

I believe the whole backstory of breaking the law was partially a choice not to sacrifice the true efficiency gains VW had achieved with its EA189 motor, or I think the injection strategy you're talking about. It's like telling your engineers you want power and efficiency and, "oh, by the way can you squirt some extra diesel at those cats". In the end, the LNT strategy was never capable of even the Euro 6 spec (.07~.08/km NOx) much less our own.
Correct, Gen 3 (and Gen 2 when the fix gets approved) do require a higher adblue dosing rate to come close to compliance. And yes, lean burn engines, like diesels, have a very difficult time reducing NOx.

Bear in mind that these commonrails are not your daddy's diesels, though. They can perform a LOT more injection events per combustion cycle (around 7 for the gen 1 piezo injectors), and very finely controlled by the ECU. There is a lot to R&D on with the number of injection events, their individual timing and quantity strategies under certain conditions that can help control emissions as desired. And the story I've been hearing is they have come up with a new strategy that has partially helped. Does it make them 100% compliant to what they were originally certified to? No.

But, that's where reading the court documents to wrap your head around what was agreed upon comes in. They have already spelled out the LNT they want to see conforming to a specific BASF standard and an updated exhaust flap. Beyond that, there isn't any specific hardware mentioned for them. Furthermore, you can read that gen 1 cars in particular are being allowed significantly relaxed targets to meet approval for a "fix" compared to what they were originally certified to.

So, while not having SCR makes it so the gen 1 cars cannot realistically meet emissions under some real-world conditions, the agreement was created to give VW a realistic chance of meeting a new, less strict target without having to re-engineer the entire system and retrofit SCR.

Despite how long this has dragged on, the agreement was written to bring this ordeal to a conclusion without massive, complicated retrofits to meet the original certification for the gen 1 cars. This was also factored in to the fines the EPA is paying. Furthermore, if I recall from when I last went through the docs, approval seemed almost assured to happen anyway, and for every little bit VW's proposed fix misses the newer, relaxed targets, VW will simply pay further fines and everyone will be able to move on anyway.

Either way, the snippet of information about the Gen 3 fix about a "change in engine tone and/or volume" is representative that there has been a change in injection strategy, and a similar effect is almost assured to happen with the Gen 1 cars. If I'm not mistaken, the piezo injectors in the Gen 1 cars have greater control over injection events than the cheaper solenoid injectors the gen 2 and 3 cars have. So, it will be interesting to see how it plays out and what effects the gen 1 cars will have, but the agreement is written to be very consumer friendly.

People worry about a decline in DPF longevity, but VW is also being required to extend a warranty on them along with many other emissions devices that VW previously had been able to get out of warrantying because the EPA hadn't updated its emissions warranty rules to reflect more recently implemented emissions controls equipment. Not only that, but there is a bit in the agreement about durability testing of the whole package, any new hardware and the effects any change in injection strategy will have on them.
 

uchu

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Markham ON
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2012 Passat Highline - in VW's possession
Yes, I am aware of the final deadline. I just thought that it would be some kind of news release once FDA approves the fixes for Gen 1 and 2 engines. (if they approve them, of course), the same way they did for the Gen 1.
 

DanB36

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If and when EPA/CARB (not FDA) approve fixes, there will no doubt be news releases.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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This blog article is now saying that it would be until the end of the year when we find out whether Gen 1 and 2 engine can be fixed...I thought it would be a heck of a lot sooner, like April or so for Gen 1 and June or July for Gen 2.

Am I missing something? :confused:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-vw-diesel-emissions-scandal/
I think this is a re-hash of an article they published last year. I bet the writer didn't research when updates will be available in any meaningful way. Not that anyone would tell him. I would disregard.
 

sohccammer427

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2015 Passat SE TDi 6 Speed Manual
...
Either way, the snippet of information about the Gen 3 fix about a "change in engine tone and/or volume" is representative that there has been a change in injection strategy, and a similar effect is almost assured to happen with the Gen 1 cars....
.
No doubt that my EA288, after the fix, sounds different. One of just a couple of changes I can tell. The other being idle RPM seem to be around 900 now whereas before the fix around 100 RPM lower.
.
My fuel mileage is still acceptable, although sometimes to me it appears to take longer to get the MDF to get into that 45 mpg range.
.
But at this point I just drive on. I've put 2.5 gallons of DEF in it for 20,000 miles before the fix. I'm anticipating an increase in DEF usage, but i suspect it will be minimal.
 

PFCoppinger

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Worcester, MA
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2014 Jetta Sportwagen
Fooled again.

Every once in awhile, I look over this site, and see that this thread is near the top,and think "hooray!" only to find that some "expert" has opined that Gen1 and Gen2 2.0L cars will NEVER get a fix because it is to complicated to install a urea system; or someone talking about the fix for the 2015s or for the 3.0L engines, or someone posting something old.

Sigh.
 

LostArk

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Location
Buffalo, NY
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2011 Golf TDI
This blog article is now saying that it would be until the end of the year when we find out whether Gen 1 and 2 engine can be fixed...I thought it would be a heck of a lot sooner, like April or so for Gen 1 and June or July for Gen 2.
Am I missing something? :confused:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-vw-diesel-emissions-scandal/
I talked to a nice lady at CARB. She said their office and VW are "going back and forth" on a fix for gen 1. On April 3rd it will have been 45 business days since VW's submittal deadline. What I gleaned from my phone conversation is that the deadline is not set in stone if both CARB and VW believe they are on track to a fix. I would cautiously assume, therefore, that if there's no news on or past April 3rd, hope for a fix may yet hold out, as the deadline would not be extended if negotiations were dead in the water. Of course, VW might just drag out the process and use owners who opted for the fix as a buffer against their current logistical nightmare. :(
Whatever, worst case scenario I drive the car depreciation-free for a year and then dump it for something brand new. If that's not first world problems I don't know what is.
 

BleachedBora

Vendor , w/Business number
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Dug this up from about 2-weeks ago.
Dear Dealer Partners,
Today a U.S. District Court held a plea hearing, a procedural step in connection with the settlement Volkswagen reached with the U.S. government on January 11, 2017. A sentencing hearing has been scheduled for April 21, 2017 to finalize and approve the terms of this settlement.
As previously announced, the plea agreement, among other terms, will provide for the payment of a penalty of $2.8 billion and the appointment of an independent monitor for three years to ensure Volkswagen meets certain ethics and compliance commitments.
Today is another important step forward for our company, we are determined to address the misconduct that went against Volkswagen's values. As you know, we are taking significant steps to strengthen our operational processes and improve transparency across our business. We are determined to make things right for our customers, rebuild the trust of the American public and make Volkswagen an example of how a socially responsible company should act and lead in the years ahead.
We continue to work tirelessly to resolve outstanding legal issues related to the diesel matter. Last month we received preliminary approval for our 3.0L TDI V6 settlement and a final approval hearing has been scheduled for May 11, 2017. Once approved, this settlement will build on the substantial progress we are making with our 2.0L TDI program, and provide a fair resolution for our remaining affected customers in the United States.
We will ensure that you are kept updated on developments. As always, thank you for your continued partnership and support.
Best Regards,
Hinrich J. Woebcken
President & CEO, VWGoA
Also, there was this, it's probably already posted somewhere around here by now...
March 6, 2017
On February 14, 2017, the Court preliminarily approved a proposed class action settlement between Bosch and class plaintiffs related to the TDI diesel emissions matter. Today, Bosch will begin the process of sending official notice and communicating the details of their settlement to current and former owners/lessees of affected 2.0L and 3.0L TDI vehicles. Although these communications will direct consumers to the Bosch Settlement website, you may also receive questions.
The Bosch settlement is separate and apart from, and in addition to, the VW settlements. As such, we recommend that you refer and all questions you may receive regarding the Bosch settlement directly to www.BoschVWSettlement.com or to Bosch's settlement hotline at 1 (844) 305-1928.
We will keep you updated as new information becomes available. Thank you for your continued patience and cooperation.
 

ecode

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Location
Toronto
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Mk6 Wagon
2015 fix approval allows dealer new car inventory of ~12,000 new TDIs to go on sale in the US! !!hurrah!!
approval allows for dealer sales of about 67,000 diesels from the 2015 model, and about 12,000 of which are currently in new car dealer inventory!
~12,000 new TDIs about to go on sale in the US! !!hurrah!! with two years of pent up demand for new VW diesels these things will be picked up pretty fast...
Source?

I thought they had to wait until they were fixed with phase 2 before selling them?
 

ecode

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Location
Toronto
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Mk6 Wagon
2015 fix approval allows dealer new car inventory of ~12,000 new TDIs to go on sale in the US! !!hurrah!!
approval allows for dealer sales of about 67,000 diesels from the 2015 model, and about 12,000 of which are currently in new car dealer inventory!
~12,000 new TDIs about to go on sale in the US! !!hurrah!! with two years of pent up demand for new VW diesels these things will be picked up pretty fast...
https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...paired-diesels
http://www.reuters.com/article/volks...-idUSL2N1H7029
Thanks for the links :)

I wonder how this affects people who buy them with only half of the fix done... I'd expect that those cars are not part of the settlement anymore? Even though the cars still technically need a second part of the fix?
 

BleachedBora

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Nice! The Bloomberg link is dead though...
 

kjclow

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Thanks for the links :)

I wonder how this affects people who buy them with only half of the fix done... I'd expect that those cars are not part of the settlement anymore? Even though the cars still technically need a second part of the fix?
I would assume that part of the sales agreement is that you have to bring it back for the stage two fix. Probably give you some type of cash incentive after the fix to make sure it gets done. Now I only need to find a red GSW.
 

piotrsko

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Or they fix it during "free" maintenance. Damn warranty oil is hard to come by
 

meerschm

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2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
If I recall correctly, the incentive for 2015 models is split,

part after the first fix, part after the second fix

with extended warranty provided after each phase of the fix
 

MollyC82

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Location
Decatur, IN
TDI
2011 Jetta Sportwagon
I spoke to someone in the "Chat" option in the settlement portal. They said that the 2009-2014 emissions modification proposal was submitted on 1/27/17. I asked if there was any chance that there won't be a fix and she said that she does not think they would offer a fix if it wasn't possible.
 

turbobrick240

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maine
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Huh? Well, I guess that settles it then. :D
 

BleachedBora

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'81 DMC-12, '15 GL350 CDI 275 hp/448 tq - '81 Caddy CJAA, '05 E320 CDI 250hp/450 tq, '23 ID4 AWD Pro S Plus
Not sure how much I trust customer care...
 

BleachedBora

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Joined
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'81 DMC-12, '15 GL350 CDI 275 hp/448 tq - '81 Caddy CJAA, '05 E320 CDI 250hp/450 tq, '23 ID4 AWD Pro S Plus
April 30 - from Mr. Woebcken:

We are happy to say that we have completed over 215,000 buybacks to date and since receiving approval in January for the MY15 vehicles, over 5,500 emissions modifications have been completed. We expect to receive approval for emissions modifications on all other 2L vehicles in the coming months and are excited to provide more people the opportunity to stay in the car that they’ve grown to love over the years.

...
A key element of our agreed upon plan to resell these vehicles is ensuring that all vehicles have received an Approved Emissions Modification, are labeled properly, and customers are made aware of any subsequent services required on the vehicle they are purchasing prior to offering for sale. Labeling and disclosures are being prepared for distribution and will arrive in your stores shortly upon your return from Las Vegas. We will also provide updates to the IN-FORM tool to ensure that you are able to implement this simply and quickly.

We will be providing further details for the resale of MY15 new stocks and buyback vehicles next week at the dealer meeting, and in the coming weeks you should be on the lookout for four key communications...

----------
There's more, but that's the bulk of it...
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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Oklahoma
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2015 VW Golf S DSG Silver
April 30 - from Mr. Woebcken:
We are happy to say that we have completed over 215,000 buybacks to date and since receiving approval in January for the MY15 vehicles, over 5,500 emissions modifications have been completed. We expect to receive approval for emissions modifications on all other 2L vehicles in the coming months and are excited to provide more people the opportunity to stay in the car that they’ve grown to love over the years.
...
A key element of our agreed upon plan to resell these vehicles is ensuring that all vehicles have received an Approved Emissions Modification, are labeled properly, and customers are made aware of any subsequent services required on the vehicle they are purchasing prior to offering for sale. Labeling and disclosures are being prepared for distribution and will arrive in your stores shortly upon your return from Las Vegas. We will also provide updates to the IN-FORM tool to ensure that you are able to implement this simply and quickly.
We will be providing further details for the resale of MY15 new stocks and buyback vehicles next week at the dealer meeting, and in the coming weeks you should be on the lookout for four key communications...
----------
There's more, but that's the bulk of it...


Date?
 

whatnxt

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Lk Stevens, WA
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2015 Q5 TDI Premium +
Any news on the 2016's?

The '16s have a different entertainment system, with Car Play, which would be great. No other differences that I know of.
 

BleachedBora

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Gresham, Oregon
TDI
'81 DMC-12, '15 GL350 CDI 275 hp/448 tq - '81 Caddy CJAA, '05 E320 CDI 250hp/450 tq, '23 ID4 AWD Pro S Plus
Sorry - March 30th. Have too much going on this morning!

The 16's in the lot should be ready for sale by the end of May.

Apparently there are a few Alltrack TDI's. One of my dealers has a few on the lot, already spoken for.
 
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