Bad, bad clutch noise

kpgubert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Location
Thornville, MI
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
It's been a long time since I've posted. Always too busy, but on the bright side my TDI has pretty much been trouble free for the past 120k miles (207k now). Until now...
Starting a year or so ago I started hearing a rattling noise when stopped, clutch out. The noise didn't seem very rhythmic, and if I put a little pressure on the clutch pedal, it would go away. It seemed its worst when first started – after driven and warmed up the noise seemed to almost go away. Unfortunately I never took a video of this noise. Seemed to me possibly a throw out bearing or an aging DMF.

Fast forward to a few months ago. Driving home from work one day, clutch pedal started not springing all the way up, and of course the clutch not wanting to release all the way. I tried just replacing the master cylinder myself (and bleeding of course), but no such luck. It work for a few pumps, but then act like it needed to be bled again (same problem).

I had actually already ordered a DKM Stage 2 clutch kit (with single mass flywheel). Unfortunately I didn't have the time or space to do the work myself, so I had a transmission shop who has done good work for us in the past do it. Clutch seemed to work alright. Definitely holds better than the stock one, but a heavier pedal. It does seem to bring out a harmonic vibration at ~2100 RPM in any gear. It's only very noticeable at that RPM when really pouring the fuel on. Neither one of those things is a big deal to me. The heavier pedal is to be expected, and I assume the harmonic vibration is a result of the SMF.

However, I now have a major noise at idle, neutral, clutch pedal out/up. The noise doesn't subside until the pedal is pushed far enough to release the clutch (slight pressure or movement on the pedal doesn't do anything – has to go far enough to disengage the transmission). It is worse when it's warm after driving for a while. Here's the video I took:

2.0 TDI Neutral Noise

The video doesn't pick up the noise very well when inside the car, but after I move outside it's very audible (second part of video). Nasty nasty. It sounds like a noisy diesel noise, except it's not the diesel part! As you hear the noise come and go outside the car that's be still working the clutch pedal.

It's been a few thousand miles since the clutch install. The noise doesn't appear to be getting any worse, but certainly not any better. I didn't have a noise like this at all before the clutch install. Could have the SMF brought this out? I find it hard to believe this noise is normal...
Any insight is much appreciated. Thank you!
 

kdawg89

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Location
Spanish Fork, UT
TDI
15 Golf DSG 06 Jetta (sold)
Single mass flywheels are known to make a bunch of noise at idle with the clutch out, probably normal for that flywheel.


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Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Vw used a DMF to prevent just that kind of noise. I switched to a smf when I did the clutch on my 05 the first time. It was a good clutch but I never liked the noise from the day I installed it.

Fast forward 150k miles and I put a sacks quiet clutch smf in. So much quieter. That sounds a lot like clutch noise however it is a little louder than mine ever was. Baring some installation fopaw on the part of the installer, you may have to live with it unless you want to pay for another clutch job.
 

kpgubert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Location
Thornville, MI
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
I suspected that might be the report. Hindsight is 20/20, and I should have probably just stuck with a stock replacement. I'm definitely not paying to have the clutch changed again. We'll see this summer when the weather is nice. If the noise is still annoying I'll change it myself then. Of course I'll still have to buy a new clutch and DMF.

I thought about trying a different transmission fluid, but from what I found on other threads different fluids doesn't seem to help noises like this.

Thanks for the help!
 

kdawg89

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Location
Spanish Fork, UT
TDI
15 Golf DSG 06 Jetta (sold)
You could look at Sachs quiet clutch rather than stock replacement. People seem to have good luck with it, quietest choice will always be a DMF though.


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kpgubert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Location
Thornville, MI
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
I didn't know about that one. I also see there are a few options for DMF kits with added capacity. I really don't need much added capacity (if any), but the old one wouldn't hold sometimes and I didn't want that to happen again.

We'll see how I feel about this when summer time gets here. If I have the time and money to switch it, I will probably just revert to a DMF setup.
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
Karl
Try placing your hand over end tin cover on the trans. Those covers will resonate with the clutch chatter. If that helps then....
I have been putting 3layers of the 1/8” thick sticky panel sound deadening material on them to make it a little more tolerable.


OOPS...
Forgot that you have the 2.0 CR w/ 6 speed and it may not have the tin cover.
 
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kpgubert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Location
Thornville, MI
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
Martin,
Thanks a lot! I'll definitely check. Where should I look for the cover (if mine has one)? It's a bit curious because I can definitely pick up on the noise inside the car, but it's much, much louder outside the car.
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
It would be on the drivers end of the trans on the 5speed manual. After looking at a couple of pics, I don’t think it applies to the 02Q 6 speed manual.
 

Ol'Rattler

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Location
PNA
TDI
2006 BRM Jetta
Took me a while to understand why the gear rattle was going on and off. On the vid you were pushing the clutch petal in and releasing it several times. Why were you doing that? The noise you hear is normal for a SMF at idle with the clutch not pushed in.

A SMF should not be used with a 6 speed. Over time it will tear up syncros.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=435822&highlight=smf
 
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kpgubert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Location
Thornville, MI
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
Took me a while to understand why the gear rattle was going on and off. On the vid you were pushing the clutch petal in and releasing it several times. Why were you doing that? The noise you hear is normal for a SMF at idle with the clutch not pushed in.

A SMF should not be used with a 6 speed. Over time it will tear up syncros.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=435822&highlight=smf

I wanted to record what the sound was with the clutch pushed in and not pushed in. Sorry, should have noted that in the original post.

It seems the consensus is that this amount of noise is normal for a SMF. Like I mentioned before, I may swap this setup out for a DMF setup when the warmer weather gets here.

Thanks for the link to that thread. They talk about the "synchros" getting chewed up. It sounds like it's the synchronizer block rings getting chewed up. I've never had apart one of these trans' or any FWD transmission before, but I assume they use block rings just like the Borg Warner or Mazda RWD transmissions I have done.

Maybe if I do change the clutch and/or flywheel I'll freshen up the gearbox too at the same time. Almost 209k miles on the clock now.
 

kpgubert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Location
Thornville, MI
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
Well, I can't take it. I just ordered a engine support bar and I'm going to find time to change definitely the flywheel and possibly the clutch back to what I should have done in the first place – an OEM replacement. Which leads me into what I wanted to ask (and didn't feel like starting a new thread for it): What's the best way to go for an OEM replacement? Sachs clutch with a Luk DMF? Are there certain part numbers I should look for?

I just cannot take the racket this thing makes. It's horrendous, especially when warm. On top of that, two more points: 1) This clutch seems it doesn't always release correctly. Sometimes it's like the pedal isn't pushed all the way down, but it is. I pretty sure I know what the pedal feels like if there's air in the line, but it's definitely not like that. And, 2) I'm finding signs that that shop I had to the clutch may have at least done some hack work. For example, some of my belly pan bolts were missing, some of them were there but obviously from somewhere else on the car (different size Torx head). I found a mysterious free nut sitting on the belly pan when I did the first oil change after the clutch. And, I have an unknown rattle coming from somewhere in the vicinity. I need to tackle this myself, which is what I should have done in the first place. You live and learn.
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
I’ll be interested to hear what you find. I’m beginning to lean towards a faulty installation.
 

kpgubert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Location
Thornville, MI
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
It won't be for at least a couple weeks until I pull her apart, but when I do I'll definitely post the findings.
 

kpgubert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Location
Thornville, MI
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
Yes, I've been putting this off for a long time, but it needs to happen this year. It looks like I'm going to piece meal the parts together. As of now I plan to use a Luk DMF (p/n DMF 123) and a Luk clutch kit. It appears there are two clutch kit options: A 02057 and a 02056. It appears the 02057 uses coil springs in the pressure plate while the 02056 uses more traditional "fingers" springs. I believe the 02057 with coil springs is the OEM option, so I'm inclined to choose that option. Is there any reason to choose the 02056 with the fingers? Do they have more holding power?
Of course I'll be replacing the slave cylinder, but besides that, is there anything else I should opt for?
Thank you!
 

kpgubert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Location
Thornville, MI
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
Well, after only a year and a half (heh :D), I've finally commenced the clutch swap! For the record, I went with a Luk DMF123 dual mass flywheel and a Luk 02057 coil spring clutch. I've never pulled the transmission out of a FWD anything, so I was a bit apprehensive. I've done quite a few RWD/4WD cars/trucks. Honestly, it isn't bad at all. The transmission is heavier than you might expect. I just muscled it down, but it left bruises on my chest/rib cage.
I've heavily referenced this write-up:
MKVI GTI 6 Speed Manual Clutch Replacement DIY
Granted, it's for a MKVI GTI, but 96% of it is exactly the same. The parts that aren't are obvious. Thank you to the author if it!!!
The most challenging part is wrestling the transmission out – or at least so far, because I haven't reassembled it yet. It requires lowering the back end of the engine down a little bit (but not too much) and wiggling the trans around. Also, I have a FrostHeater "block" heater installed. It was in the way. I unbolted it from its mount and I was able to slip the trans past it, but for re-installation I'm going to disconnect at least one of the lines to get it even more out of the way. I think it created a big enough obstacle getting it completely out of the way it worth it.
I'll update this thread when I have it put it back together!
 
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kpgubert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Location
Thornville, MI
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
Alright guys, I just wanted to bring this thread to a conclusion – and it's a happy conclusion!
The install went pretty well. The clutch alignment tool included with the Luk clutch wasn't right (sized for a car that uses a pilot bearing). I had to order the correct one. I think they're becoming more easily available. I bench bled the slave cylinder just by putting a half full bottle of brake fluid on its side, sticking the connection end in (having it higher than the rest of the cylinder assembly), and just pumped it with my fingers until I stopped seeing bubbles. This helped immensely later on while bleeding. Super easy.
Getting the trans up into place was quite the process. It took me a while, and I think I finally just got lucky and it slipped into place. I did stick the CV axle flanges in temporarily when the trans was close to being in position, then sticking the trans into a gear (any gear) I could rock the flanges back and forth to know when the splines were lined up with the clutch. There is an eye on the top of the trans near the back. This is immensely helpful. I hooked [another] ratchet strap to this eye and using the engine support this really helped pull the trans into the correct position.
Oh, don't forget to refill the trans once the CV flanges are reinstalled! I didn't forget, but it'd be easy to do.
Now, for the really good news: All the bad noises are gone! Totally, and completely gone! It's like a brand new car! The pedal effort is back to being super easy and the clutch releases every time (unlike that other thing). I am so happy I did this. My Jetta is back to being the purring kitten smooth car I know and love.



 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Good job. Did you find anything wrong with the old clutch that caused the noise or was it just normal for that clutch?
 

kpgubert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Location
Thornville, MI
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
Thanks! I do feel quite accomplished. Besides they broke the battery tray (the standoff that is supposed to support the air box), dislodged/broke one of the rubber air box mounts, and broke both the air duct inlet and the air duct cover, I didn't find anything wrong with the install. Oh, and I was able to identify that loose nut I found. It was one that held the wire loom/connector bracket to the starter bolt/stud.
And nope, absolutely nothing wrong with the flywheel or clutch. I did notice that that SMF flywheel and clutch was super heavy (picking it up weight). Considerably heavier than the Luk stuff I replaced it with.
I also did notice the previous throw out bearing didn't have rubber on the interface between the bearing and clutch fingers like the new one does (the rubber can be seen in the picture of the new TOB above). This wasn't the source of the noise because if it was, the noise would have subsided when I put any pressure on the clutch – which it did not. However, I wonder if this contributed to the clutch not releasing quite all the way sometimes?
Anyway, I have the clutch I took out of it. If anyone can make good use of it, they're more than welcome to it. IMHO, it should never be put in a street driven car again. Maybe a track only car.
 
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