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Old September 28th, 2018, 16:37   #751
bugsbug
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Thumbs up 2006 tdi beetle, no start trouble shooting, new thread I'm @#6

New thread. I got to the fuel filter line to engine, tank pump. I have fuel flow for 3 seconds. Still no start. Need help here on developing trouble shooting further. I have verified all fuses, with engine pictures (identity ) are good. What should my next step be? Temp. 90 degrees all bells and whistles function in cab except radio.
Thanks, Bugsbug. Love this site!
I've worked on tons of motors. But this is my 1st diesel. I paid $400. For it and really really want to drive. It! Thanks for the content & all your hard work!
Guy
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Old September 29th, 2018, 10:30   #752
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This helped me to troubleshoot (even though it turned out to be a completely different thing) - I signed up for the forum to add my experience, hopefully it helps someone else someday.

2005 TDI Jetta Wagon.

First symptom (though I didn't realize it was related until the end) was the traction control warning light started coming on.

A few days later, it wouldn't start. It turned over, but wouldn't catch. After a battery charge it started, so I assumed it just wasn't turning fast enough from a low battery. Same thing happened several times, but after replacing the battery, topping the new one off before installing, it still happened. Followed all the steps in this guide, and all the links from it. No power to the fuel pump. Checked fuses, relays, all good. Connections and ground at the ECU were totally clean.
VCDS indicated ECU connection fault to... the ABS.

Then I finally noticed it: the wire bundle going to the ECU goes past a corner of sheet metal, and it had rubbed the tape wrap away. One single wire had a tiny tiny tiny spot of its insulation worn away, so a sliver of copper was visible.
I looked up the wire color in my shop manual: ABS sensor.
Wrapped it in electrical tape, cut a plastic bottle to protect the wire bundle from the sheet metal edge...

Car started right up immediately. No fault codes. Been driving it a number of times, absolutely no hesitation on starting.

So that's what it was. Apparently if the ABS / traction control system has a fault too many times in a row, the ecu cuts power to the fuel lift pump. I haven't been able to find that fact written about anywhere in the shop manual or anywhere online.

TL;DR - if you have no power at the lift pump, but all the fuses, relays, and wiring is good, check for problems with the brake electronics.
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Old November 2nd, 2018, 14:43   #753
Shawtm12
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Wink Situation #5

What a wonderful thread!

I would like to add to it. I worked my way through all of this but to no avail.

What it ended up being was AIR TRAPPED INSIDE MY PUMP.

No amount of injection line cracking+turning the engine over got the air out. I was able to draw fuel through the filter to the pump. But the pump itself was not sucking any air. checked the electrical side of things. All was fine there.

I even unhooked both return and feed lines from the pump and placed the filter side of those lines in a jar of fuel and turned it over to see if the pump was sucking anything. It did not suck a damn drop.

but i digress....

Basically this came down to not priming the fuel pump correctly.

How i fixed the situation:

Unhooked the return line off of my fuel filter. (the line that connects the pump to the T fitting on my filter.)

I connected a vacuum hand pump to the return line.

ENSURE YOUR INJECTOR LINES ARE TIGHT FOR THIS.

I pumped and pumped and pumped until i finally got fuel (AND A BUTT LOAD OF AIR) to come out, until i saw a solid stream of fuel. This led me to believe that the seals inside the pump were fine (because if they werent, the amount of air would never have stopped).

Once i had a continuous flow of fuel, i clamped the line with vicegrips, removed my vacuum pump, hooked the line back up to the filter, removed the vicegrips, and she flashed right up like she was brand new.

Make sure youre priming your pump thoroughly before you rule out air in the pump.

Hope this helps someone because i was pretty close to forking over money for a new pump. Not to mention going bald from stress.

Happy dubbing!
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Old November 11th, 2018, 11:40   #754
Jakes
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Default 2004 jetta bew tdi will not start

1. just drove the car, visited a friend, while leaving turned on ignition dash lights came on and faded dead in about 3 seconds to include the clock; the engine will not turn over

2. Suspected the battery, removed battery and had it load tested. Results all cells good, 14.1 volts

3. Checked battery, fuses and connections in block above battery, followed the wires to the starter, no burnt wires or corrosion

4. reconnected battery and all lights came on bright but when I attempted to start the car, a repeat as listed in 1 above

5. suspected an immobilizer/dead fob, tried other fob, no help. After two tries, no lights, completely dead. Came back a few minutes later, back to as posted in 1 above

Stumped is an understatement. Thanks in advance.

Last edited by Jakes; November 11th, 2018 at 14:35. Reason: spelling
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Old November 11th, 2018, 17:17   #755
whitedog
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14.1 volts? That is what I would expect while the engine is running. Have the battery load tested. Not tested with the little impedence readers the battery sellers use. Heck, just put your meter on the battery and read it as you try to start the engine. I'm betting it drops below 8 volts.

Sometimes batteries just give up the ghost with no warning.
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Old November 14th, 2018, 16:36   #756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitedog View Post
14.1 volts? That is what I would expect while the engine is running. Have the battery load tested. Not tested with the little impedence readers the battery sellers use. Heck, just put your meter on the battery and read it as you try to start the engine. I'm betting it drops below 8 volts.

Sometimes batteries just give up the ghost with no warning.
I had the battery load tested,out of the car, at Advance Auto in Fairmont, WV. They said it was good with no bad cells.I trailered the jetta to the dealer, their load test revealed a bad battery. Lots of time wasted and am at a loss to know what Advance did when they load tested the battery. Hopefully this does not repeat but your meter suggestion makes sense, thanks.

Last edited by Jakes; November 14th, 2018 at 16:41.
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Old November 15th, 2018, 07:26   #757
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So do we assume this got your car started?
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Old November 20th, 2018, 09:51   #758
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Last time I went to Advanced Auto they still do carbon pile test, no test for dead cell. Newer Midtronics testers are pretty good at catching defective batteries. Not perfect, but pretty good.

Jason
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Old November 27th, 2018, 14:56   #759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverGhost View Post
Last time I went to Advanced Auto they still do carbon pile test, no test for dead cell. Newer Midtronics testers are pretty good at catching defective batteries. Not perfect, but pretty good.

Jason
Battery with dead cell will not show anywhere near 12 volts.
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Old November 29th, 2018, 11:04   #760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobnOH View Post
Battery with dead cell will not show anywhere near 12 volts.
Then their tester must have been junk. I had a battery they said was fine. Brought it back to work and used a Midtronics 340 on it and found a bad/short cell.

Jason
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Old February 2nd, 2019, 06:59   #761
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Hi guys...

Firstly, sincere apologies if I'm posting this in the wrong place and thank you for taking the time to read! Sorry for the ramble; I’ve tried to be a concise as possible to keep the thread short and minimal time spent and I didn’t want to omit details that might be clues to the expert eye.

I’m having real difficulty getting my Mk5 Golf 2.0L TDI started. I’m led to believe that diesels are ridiculously easy to start – you “just” need fuel, air and compression (not even working glow plugs unless it’s super cold? Note that I live in sunny Australia).

BACKGROUND:
The car had been driven solidly for years until a couple of months ago (when a replacement car was bought), since which time it was left on the driveway for a month, then driven without any issues perhaps 30 mins per week for a few weeks.
One day, I tried to start it, it made the usual cranking sounds (seemed like the starter was going at the usual frequency, though I haven’t measured this) but it just wouldn’t start. I tried several times without success, until the inevitable engine light and “STOP!”. It seemed as I imagine it would if there were no fuel present – all action but no actual start. It does sound as if the cranking frequency rises a little over the 10 second period.

DIAGNOSTICS:
My mechanic discovered engine fault codes. I bought an OBD tool, which identified an EGR Valve Insufficient Flow. I dismantled and carb-cleaned a very grotty EGR and ASV and cleared the codes, which are now permanently gone. I do get a brake pedal fault (unsure how that’s engine-related), but I can see that’s because the brake pedal is depressed so far that it does not engage with the switch actuator (normal/reasonable/relevant? "P0571 - Cruise/Brake Switch (A) Circ. Malfunction static").
The car has had dodgy electrics over the years (central locking, electric windows) so I’m concerned a loom is damaged somewhere which might cause the ECU controls to the engine electrics to fail – e.g. the injectors (do these need to be fully operational to start the car, or are they only necessary subsequently?)
Since the electric windows and central locking are dodgy, I’m surprised fault codes don’t currently show for those. When I last left the car the other day, the brake/rear lights remained on permanently after I’d locked up, with the headlights completely off – that’s a combination I’ve never seen before!
Finally, we did have routine issues when parked on a hill facing upwards, years ago – alternately toggling the key on/off I believe overcame the lame/depressurised fuel lift pump issue, and the car would then start just fine.
I visited this wonderful forum, which is totally stacked with info, and tried the "how-to" here but believe I exhausted all suggestions: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=199398

AIR:
I have removed the inlet hose, placed a mirror beneath the now-exposed ASV and observe that before, during and after trying to start the vehicle, this valve (“butterfly”?) remains open throughout. Additionally, I’ve sprayed “Start Ya Bastard” (SYB) into the ASV (https://www.nulon.com.au/products/ae...engine-starter) Yes, I’m sure I’ll get decried as a heathen for doing such a thing, but I’m really not happy with a one-ton doorstop on my driveway and I'm clutching at straws here for clues. This stuff is supposed to be able to start pretty much any engine. Alas, while the cranking definitely sped up, almost to the point of starting, it still refused to actually start. That the ASV valve is open and SYB was clearly being drawn into the engine (because cranking frequency increased) suggests to me that air is not the issue (?).

FUEL:
I removed the fuel hose into the tandem pump from the fuel filter, stuck it in a cup and switched the ignition on – I got about 30ml of fuel in there, but this amount dropped off to *nothing* after repeating the key on/off a few times, which surprised me.
I know nothing of whether the fuel is correctly pressurised at/by the injectors, that the tandem pump is even working (or how to diagnose/what to inspect for). The diesel has been in the tank for at most 3 months. Removing the fuel filter lid (because I can’t get the hose off from the lift pump into the fuel filter) shows a steady 2-3 second flow from the lift pump every single time, so I assume that is working just fine, although I don’t know if the other 3 ports are causing an issue.
If fuel were the problem, SYB would surely have got the engine going, then the engine would have stalled after moving onto fuel. I have not yet drained and refilled the fuel filter with fresh diesel because of the above argument – I don’t see how SYB failed if bad fuel were the issue. I *have* tried to start with no filter medium at all, having filled the canister with diesel to minimise air. No improvement. If the injectors were the issue, I wouldn’t expect them all to fail simultaneously (instead expect lumpy/irregular or sub-optimal performance), nor for the OBD diagnostics to report no issue with them (please correct any weak assumptions/misunderstandings). I'm concerned that a dodgy ECU is not reporting its own failure in e.g. not driving the injectors or whatever else is electrically controlled during a start. I’ve tested the glow plugs – all 0.5 Ohm-ish.

COMPRESSION:
Removing the upper timing cover revealed that the crankshaft and belt are turning as I would expect, so I believe compression is good.

ADDITIONAL:
I’ve tested all fuses and relays in the engine fuse box. I’ve only become aware of the fuses/relays beneath the steering column since returning my friend’s multi-meter – need I check these also?

My mechanic did remark several years ago that the reason our car has *always* had to turn over at least 4 or 5 times to get started is because the very early Mk 5 2.0L TDI (late 2004 manufacture) has an underrated starter motor – I don’t know if this is making a contribution or totally irrelevant.

I’ve used this site lots over the years – thank you all so much for your contributions – you’ve saved me perhaps $thousands all up.

Sean.
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Old February 4th, 2019, 11:23   #762
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Sean

first - is your engine a PD or CR TDI? Us Yanks never got the MkV TDI Golf.

Did you ever sort your lift pump issues? A failing lift pump may cause some of the issues you described. Lift pump should deliver a couple PSI (about right for a carburetored engine).

The mechanical tandem pump may have failed. This will then cause injectors to not receive enough pressure to operate. On PD TDI the tandem pump has a port to check pressure.

Fuel filter assembly has a return built in. Not sure if this is why you only got 30mL and dropped to nothing. Side note - ECM won't always cycle the fuel pump on every key cycle. It knows to prime the system, but doesn't need to run pump unless engine is cranking/running. So sometimes it will run first key cycle and not after, unless you open the door or spin the starter. Just a tid bit to confuse your diagnosis.

Is SYB same as plain ether or extra additives? I have found plain ether works best for the purpose of a starting aid. I have used something like that here and Diesel engine would not fire off it, but the plain ether worked fine.

Jason
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Old February 4th, 2019, 14:42   #763
BobnOH
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Lift pump. Try testing as you did the tandem pimp.
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Old February 4th, 2019, 22:30   #764
sc1500
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SilverGhost - thanks for your help!

My engine code is BKD, which I'm assured makes it a PD (https://www.racechip.com/distinguishing-cr-pd.html).

The lift pump issues were never explicitly resolved - we resigned to a few extra ignition on/off cycles when foolish enough to have forgotten to park facing *downhill* rather than up. We then moved to another property with no hill starts required. I don't believe the issue is the lift pump, though, because when I turn on the ignition, I get a steady "firm" flow of fuel into the fuel filter lid for 2-3 seconds, just as suggested should happen here:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=199398
("Once the hoses are off cycle the key to on and you should get fuel out of the hose for about two or three seconds. "). Note though that this is *into* the fuel filter; out to the tandem pump is where the fuel keeps dropping off each on/off cycle until after 3 attempts nothing at all. I don't understand this behaviour, although there are now more hoses with potentially a lot of air in them in that scenario(?)

I guess I ultimately need to determine the pressure into the injectors, though I can't find anything on "cracking" them on the Mk5 - is this perhaps down to the PD (CR had a nut for each injector, maybe?). A MityVac is in the post to allow me to purge any air the system - is it true that without doing this first, the car will simply never start, regardless of any underlying issue (and if I'm lucky, air in the system is actually the issue itself)? And once I've removed a hose, there will be air in the system.

The SYB safety sheet identifies components "naphtha petroleum", dimethyl ether, diethyl ether, hydroquinone, so, no, I don't reckon it's pure ether - I'll perhaps source a true ether to eliminate compression/air(?).

PD Tandem Pump pressure port - perfect, thank you! I'll check this if I can get a gauge and hoses up to the job (115psi is just a number to me - do I need expensive equipment/gauges to handle this kind of pressure?)

BobnOH - thank you. I didn't test the tandem pump, though - I was wondering if dismantling it would reveal anything obvious or if I'd need proper equipment to eliminate it as the cause.
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Old February 5th, 2019, 01:06   #765
sc1500
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Having stumbled on this wonderful thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=274730, it appears that, since I have a lift pump, my fuel system is under pressure, not vacuum, so I shouldn't need to bleed the air out of the lines with an e.g. MityVac (or Gatorade bottle ), as the lift pump will displace it for me. So, if air in the system were an issue, several on/off ignition cycles should get fuel to the injectors (if the tandem pump is working - or does it not even play a role in getting the car started?)? If this understanding is incorrect and I *do* need to bleed the system, I guess I need the closest point to the injectors (though I have the PD engine, so there's nothing to "crack", unfortunately) Where is this location on my vehicle?

Thank you!
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