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Old January 16th, 2019, 12:18   #16
Carlos_TJ
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^^that audi poster never posted his engine type.
It could be a PD engine. On these, besides the obvious injector problems, worn out cams can disturb the injector balance numbers
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Old January 17th, 2019, 05:08   #17
Franko6
 
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Carlos,

Veedubmad's injector quantities have to be a PD, as those are the kind of deviation numbers we see with PD's. When the number 2.99+ or 3.01- comes up, you are usually looking for new injectors. Veedubmad might get lucky and try Liqui-Moly Purge, which isn't very likely to work, or replace the worst injector. Some will swap two deviating injectors to be sure it's not the cylinder or bad cam, as we pioneered many years ago.

I would caution, there is a burr that is caused by the PD injector body leaning against the aluminum cylinder bore. The burr must be removed before reinstalling the injector or you will cut the seals. Sometimes you can reinstall the seals without replacing, but if you cut it, it's done for. If a any of the lower black seals are cut, fuel will leak back to the fuel return galley and power will be severely diminished. You will always have to replace the TTY hold down bolt.

The rest of this conversation has to do with the 2-Stage rotary pump injectors...

It's probably been more than 10 years ago, we discovered 'not all injectors are created equal'. By using the VCDS/ engine module/ measuring blocks/ block 13 (idle balance) and block 15 (liter per hour fuel usage), we have been able to determine if new injectors are working 1) well with one another and 2) if the fueling usage is close to spec. However, on nozzles which have many miles and much wear, especially ones that the pop pressures have diminished, block 13 is not going to give usable information on balance.

For example, we often find that the pilot pop has diminished from the 220 bar (3250psi) pop pressure, to usually around 170 bar, or 725 psi loss. That's about a 20% loss in pressure. Usually, NoP2, the main stage pressure, which should be at or near 300bar (4350psi), is also reduced. The point is that the injectors are intended to operate at an optimum pressure, which has a bell curve for best performance, I would say, within 5% of the intended pressure, they will then be able to be rated for balance. If they are not popping at the correct pressure, they will most likely show less deviation, unless an injector nozzle is very bad.

Although we've seen a few exceptions for people that use Tier 1 diesel fuels, or regularly run certain diesel additives, it's not all that easy to keep injectors going for 250k. If the original injectors can be shown to pop cleanly through all 5 holes equally and can be shimmed to meet spec, then you may be able to use the VCDS numbers to qualify the injectors. But truthfully, the work 'checking old injectors', does not pay well when we spend hours attempting to get a set of 4 old nozzles to cooperate. It usually doesn't work. As I have said before,"What will you pay me for 3/4 of a working set?" Answer: Not much...

So also, what do the OP's injector numbers mean? Not much...
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Old January 17th, 2019, 07:29   #18
iluvmydiesels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wersuss View Post
i see some random engine shake at idle
you didnt post your idle speed. (warm).
after this check #1 mechanical timing, after verifying check pump timing.


the audi poster, veedub--, the purge is usually a good idea, oh one a year a full bottle to a full tank. in our older models we could bottle feed 1full can straight, for maintenance, full flush concentrate. the purge is mainly going to get small(er) improvements here, --*mainly*-.
new nozzles seem in order, idk if a professional can clean up or get old nozzles to work right again. in the future take better care of fuel system, putting additive in each fuel tank fill up, and other basic maintenance, such as using purge from time to time, and #1 change your fuel filter!! <-#2 here, use a good,quality filter.(the same, and dont forget your air filter!)
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Old January 17th, 2019, 11:20   #19
Carlos_TJ
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Frank06 thank you for the great insight.

I was speaking from experience on the effect of a worn cam on group 13.
While my flat cam didint produce "+/- 2.99" values, it pushed two cylinders to more than "1.00" .

Just the cam swap itself resulted in values less than "+/-0.10" across the 4 injectors.
My car had around 70k miles at the time, so the injectors werent that worn out.
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Old January 17th, 2019, 12:14   #20
BobnOH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franko6 View Post
.............snip..................
It's probably been more than 10 years ago, we discovered 'not all injectors are created equal'. By using the VCDS/ engine module/ measuring blocks/ block 13 (idle balance) and block 15 (liter per hour fuel usage), we have been able to determine if new injectors are working 1) well with one another and 2) if the fueling usage is close to spec. However, on nozzles which have many miles and much wear, especially ones that the pop pressures have diminished, block 13 is not going to give usable information on balance. .............snip....................
Frank, other than Group 013, how do I use my VCDS to analyze the condition of my VE injectors? Car only has 180k mi. and gets 37 mpg (freeway or combined). I've ruled out much of the "dumb stuff".
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Old January 17th, 2019, 20:19   #21
03TDICommuter
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Quote:
Frank, other than Group 013, how do I use my VCDS to analyze the condition of my VE injectors? Car only has 180k mi. and gets 37 mpg (freeway or combined). I've ruled out much of the "dumb stuff".
I'm interested too. 355K miles on original injectors.
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Old January 18th, 2019, 03:37   #22
iluvmydiesels
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OPs 4th post shows the IQ.
the 5th post, block 13.
other than some other VCDS diagnostic tools.
send your injectors to a professional shop. a pop tester can help. you can build your own, as long as your careful when using it.
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Old January 18th, 2019, 13:57   #23
BobnOH
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Frank mentioned some specifics in evaluating the things for the PD. I'm lazy, rather diddle with the VCDS than pull injectors, but that may not even be possible. Never have been impressed by anything the VCDS does, other than a few adaptations.
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Old January 18th, 2019, 15:46   #24
phaser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franko6 View Post
I would caution, there is a burr that is caused by the PD injector body leaning against the aluminum cylinder bore. The burr must be removed before reinstalling the injector or you will cut the seals.

Frank, how do you go about removing these burrs?


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Old January 24th, 2019, 23:59   #25
Franko6
 
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I see enough questions to do a thesis...

Bob and 03TDI communter...

The first thing I can say is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." But with BobinOhio, the 37mpg is lousy fuel economy. Block 13 may show deviation between injectors... maybe not... but block 15, liter per hr usage, will show how much fuel you engine is burning. An idle fuel usage number for an ALH should be around .4 lph, and at 2,000rpm, it should be around 2.2, but can be as low as 1.8lph. The problem remains, if you don't have injectors popping at an optimal pressure, it's harder to determine which is bad or if the set is bad.

Phaser: Whenever we remove a PD injector, we remove the burr caused by the injector leaning against the injector bore. The bolt and hold down block push the injector toward the opposite side of the injector bore, causing the injector body to vibrate against the aluminum, which often will cause a burr to form. A piece of 180 grit emery cloth will work. If you are particular, put a paper towel into the hole ahead of the damage and work the paper side to side. It doesn't take long. We have a 1" x 1" 240 grit flapper wheel made by an Italian company, Bibelle, we use on a die grinder. It polishes the hole quick and easy.

The other obvious sign that VE injectors are leaking is a slow startup and lots of white smoke from a cold start. At that point, we usually find they are worn and should be replaced. That is the only real cure for old and worn out injectors.
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Old January 25th, 2019, 11:23   #26
BobnOH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franko6 View Post
<<<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the 37mpg is lousy fuel economy. Block 13 may show deviation between injectors... maybe not... but block 15, liter per hr usage, will show how much fuel you engine is burning. An idle fuel usage number for an ALH should be around .4 lph, and at 2,000rpm, it should be around 2.2, but can be as low as 1.8lph. The problem remains, if you don't have injectors popping at an optimal pressure, it's harder to determine which is bad or if the set is bad.<<<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now that's helpful! Thank You Frank.
My starts are good, but I get white smoke, intermittent, like half the time, irrespective of ambient or engine temperature.

Last edited by BobnOH; January 25th, 2019 at 11:26.
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