my bad- AKA why you should never kill+jumpstart+battery charge a NMS

this is what happened:
BTW the bold ABS fault says module clearing not recognized-contact RT for assistance
the 2 underlined faults for window motors wold only clear after rolling each rear window all the way up and down
the first try before doing this just made them pop back!
just in case someone else ever has this problem...
09 did not read because we did this on the fly on the way to a grocery store- but it did have an exceeded and lower limit fault which easily cleared...

01-Engine -- Status: Malfunction 0010
02-Auto Trans -- Status: Malfunction 0010
03-ABS Brakes -- Status: Malfunction 0010
04-Steering Angle -- Status: OK 0000
05-Acc/Start Auth. -- Status: Malfunction 0010
08-Auto HVAC -- Status: Malfunction 0010
09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: Malfunction 0010
15-Airbags -- Status: OK 0000
16-Steering wheel -- Status: OK 0000
17-Instruments -- Status: Malfunction 0010
19-CAN Gateway -- Status: OK 0000
25-Immobilizer -- Status: OK 0000
2B-Steer. Col. Lock -- Status: Malfunction 0010
2E-Media Player 3 -- Status: OK 0000
36-Seat Mem. Drvr -- Status: OK 0000
37-Navigation -- Status: OK 0000
42-Door Elect, Driver -- Status: Malfunction 0010
44-Steering Assist -- Status: OK 0000
46-Central Conv. -- Status: OK 0000
47-Sound System -- Status: OK 0000
4F-Centr. Electr. II -- Status: OK 0000
52-Door Elect, Pass. -- Status: Malfunction 0010
56-Radio -- Status: OK 0000
62-Door, Rear Left -- Status: OK 0000
72-Door, Rear Right -- Status: OK 0000
77-Telephone -- Status: OK 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine (J623-CKRA) Labels: 03L-906-012-CKR.clb
Part No SW: 03L 906 012 BN HW: 03L 907 309 S
Component: R4 2,0L EDC H21 4804
Revision: 71H21--- Serial number:
Coding: 001D0012042400008000
Shop #: WSC 00009 009 28888
ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM20TDI01103L906012BN 004007
ROD: EV_ECM20TDI01103L906012BN.rod
VCID: 71C7378CA0B2B3966BD-8024

3 Faults Found:
16705 - Ignition Switch; Run/Start Position Circuit
P2533 00 [096] - Open or Short to Ground
Intermittent - Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 0 km
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 00:00:00

17262 - Terminal 30
U140A 00 [032] - Open Circuit
Intermittent - Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 00:00:00

4629 - ECM Power Relay Load Circuit: (J271)
P068A 00 [032] - De-Energized Performance Too Early
Intermittent - Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 0 km
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 00:00:00

Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 02E-300-0xx.lbl
Part No SW: 02E 300 058 M HW: 02E 927 770 AL
Component: GSG DSG AG6 512 3522
Revision: 05551213 Serial number: --------------
Coding: 0000020
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
VCID: 24690ED8E7C0563ED0B-8071

2 Faults Found:
16947 - System Voltage
P0563 - 000 - Too High - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 39
Time Indication: 0

18036 - Powertrain Data Bus
P1628 - 000 - Missing Message from Steering Angle Sensor - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 39
Mileage: 28214 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2016.14.23
Time: 23:35:13


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes (J104) Labels: 1K0-907-379-60EC1F.clb
Part No SW: 1K0 907 379 BL HW: 1K0 907 379 BL
Component: ESP MK60EC1 H31 0152
Revision: 00H31001
Coding: C54BC0F5492300FAA31303E892210042A71000
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
VCID: 7DDF1BBCE4EAC7F6FF5-8028

1 Fault Found:
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30
001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 1
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 26
Mileage: 28214 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
Count: 16391
Count: 14
Count: 4096
Count: 129
Count: 65280
Count: 0
Count: 253
Count: 6144


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. (J518) Labels: 5K0-959-434.clb
Part No SW: 5K0 959 434 B HW: 5K0 959 434
Component: VWKESSYPQ35GP 085 0902
Revision: 00085000 Serial number: ----------
Coding: 130C0C
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
ASAM Dataset: EV_KESSYPQ35G A02013
ROD: EV_KESSYPQ35G.rod
VCID: 3449FE989F20C6BE40B-8061

1 Fault Found:
65794 - Function Restricted due to Insufficient Voltage
U1400 00 [008] - -
Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 6
Fault Frequency: 2
Reset counter: 26
Mileage: 0 km
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 00:00:00


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC (J255) Labels: 5K0-907-044.clb
Part No SW: 561 907 044 M HW: 561 907 044 M
Component: Climatronic H03 0404
Revision: 00001K01
Coding: 0018001012
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
ASAM Dataset: EV_ACClimaBHBVW411 A01001
ROD: EV_ACClimaBHBVW411.rod
VCID: 216707CC30D24316BBD-8074

3 Faults Found:
9473137 - Motor for Left Temperature Flap
B108C 71 [008] - Actuator stuck
Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 26
Mileage: 28214 km
Date: 2016.14.20
Time: 07:04:32

9473393 - Motor for Right Temperature Flap
B108D 71 [008] - Actuator stuck
Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Reset counter: 26
Mileage: 28214 km
Date: 2016.14.19
Time: 00:39:58

9474161 - Motor for Defroster Flap
B1090 71 [008] - Actuator stuck
Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 24
Mileage: 28063 km
Date: 2016.14.12
Time: 02:55:40


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect.
Cannot be reached
Unable to communicate with address 09. Are you sure the doors are unlocked?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags (J234) Labels: 5K0-959-655.clb
Part No SW: 5C0 959 655 HW: 5C0 959 655
Component: AirbagVW10G 013 0809
Serial number: ------------
Coding: 00003548
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
ASAM Dataset: EV_AirbaVW10SMEVW360 A01024
ROD: EV_AirbaVW10SMEVW360_SE36.rod
VCID: EFC3B1F436862566FD9-80BA

Seat occupied recognition:
Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 5C6 959 339 A HW: 5C6 959 339 A
Component: BF-Gewichtss. H10 0045
Serial number:
Coding: 303047

Crash sensor for side airbag; driver side:
Subsystem 2 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 354 HW: 5K0 959 354
Component: S.Sens.Fahr.V H01 ----
Serial number:

Crash sensor for side airbag; passenger side:
Subsystem 3 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 354 HW: 5K0 959 354
Component: S.Sens.Beif.V H01 ----
Serial number:
Crash sensor for side airbag; rear driver side:
Subsystem 4 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 351 A HW: 5K0 959 351 A
Component: S.Sens.Fahr.H H02 ----
Serial number:

Crash sensor for side airbag; rear passenger side:
Subsystem 5 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 351 A HW: 5K0 959 351 A
Component: S.Sens.Beif.H H02 ----
Serial number:

Crash sensor for front airbag; driver side:
Subsystem 6 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 659 A HW: 5K0 959 659 A
Component: F.Sens.Fahr H02 ----
Serial number:

Crash sensor for front airbag; passenger side:
Subsystem 7 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 659 A HW: 5K0 959 659 A
Component: F.Sens.Beif H02 ----
Serial number:

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel (J527) Labels: 5K0-953-569.clb
Part No SW: 1K5 953 521 AR HW: 5K0 953 569 E
Component: LENKS.MODUL 014 0140
Revision: FF010041 Serial number: --------------
Coding: 000A140000
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
ASAM Dataset: EV_SMLSNGVOLWSXS A01004
ROD: EV_SMLSNGVOLWS.rod
VCID: 7DDF1BBCECEAC7F6FF5-8028

Multifunction steering wheel control module:
Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 3C8 959 537 D HW: 3C8 959 537 D
Component: E221__MFL-YVJ H06 0022
Coding: E20000

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments (J285) Labels: 5K0-920-xxx-17.clb
Part No SW: 561 920 970 E HW: 561 920 970 E
Component: KOMBI H07 0705
Serial number: 00000000000000
Coding: 641E01
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
ASAM Dataset: EV_Kombi_UDS_VDD_RM09 A04716
ROD: EV_Kombi_UDS_VDD_RM09_SE35.rod
VCID: 1C19363817B06EFE68B-8049

1 Fault Found:
13893888 - Function Restricted due to Exessive Voltage
U1401 00 [008] - -
Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 6
Fault Frequency: 2
Reset counter: 26
Mileage: 28214 km
Date: 2016.14.23
Time: 23:30:13


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway (J533) Labels: 7N0-907-530-V2.clb
Part No SW: 7N0 907 530 T HW: 7N0 907 530 K
Component: J533 Gateway H40 1632
Revision: H40 Serial number: 21061203290341
Coding: 461000
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
VCID: 41A7A74CD8926316DBD-8014

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 25: Immobilizer (J334) Labels: 5K0-920-xxx-25.clb
Part No SW: 5K0 953 234 HW: 5K0 953 234
Component: IMMO H07 0705
Serial number:
Coding: 000007
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
ASAM Dataset: EV_Immo_UDS_VDD_RM09 A03709
ROD: EV_Immo_UDS_VDD_RM09_VN35.rod
VCID: EAF5A0E00D64C04EAA7-80BF

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 2B: Steer. Col. Lock (J764) Labels: 5K0-905-861.clb
Part No SW: 5K0 905 861 B HW: 5K0 905 861 A
Component: ELV-PQ35 H20 0240
Revision: 00000000 Serial number: --------------
Coding: 4900000000000000
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
ASAM Dataset: EV_ELVMarquMPVW36X A01001
ROD: EV_ELVMarquMPVW36X.rod
VCID: 2F43F1F47606E5663D9-807A

1 Fault Found:
13893888 - Function Restricted due to Exessive Voltage
U1401 00 [008] - -
Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 6
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 26
Mileage: 28214 km
Date: 2016.14.23
Time: 23:30:15


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 2E: Media Player 3 (J650) Labels: 5N0-035-342.lbl
Part No SW: 5N0 035 342 F HW: 5N0 035 342 F
Component: SG EXT.PLAYER H18 0530
Revision: A1001003 Serial number: ----------
Coding: 010100
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
VCID: 2A75E0E045E4804EEA7-807F

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr (J136) Labels: None
Part No SW: 561 959 760 HW: 561 959 760
Component: MEM-FS H04 0181
Revision: AA000000 Serial number: --------------
Coding: 00581B0000000000000021010100202020202120202020
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
VCID: E0E1C2C8F3588A1E743-80B5

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 37: Navigation (J0506) Labels: 1T0-035-680.clb
Part No SW: 3C0 035 684 J HW: 3C0 035 684 G
Component: RNS-MID H02 4366
Revision: AB001001 Serial number: --------------
Coding: 0409004204000090000B
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
VCID: 2A75E0E045E4804EEA7-807F

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 7L6 919 859
Component: NAR V6 7963

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 42: Door Elect, Driver (J386) Labels: 3C0-959-70X-GEN4.clb
Part No SW: 561 959 701 A HW: 3C0 959 793 C
Component: TUER-SG FT 002 0525
Revision: 12110009 Serial number: ----------
Coding: 0405FD
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
ASAM Dataset: EV_TSGFPQ25BRFVW46X A04001
ROD: EV_TSGFPQ25BRFVW46X.rod
VCID: 1C19363817B06EFE68B-8049

Slave Driver:
Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 561 959 811 HW: 561 959 811 Labels: 1K0-959-70X-GEN4.CLB
Component: J388__TSG_HL 004 4472
Serial number: --------------------
Coding: 800000

1 Fault Found:
131584 - Motor for Rear Window Regulator
B11EE 54 [009] - Missing Calibration / Basic Setting
Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 7
Fault Frequency: 1


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 44: Steering Assist Labels: 1Kx-909-14x-44.clb
Part No: 1K0 909 144 P
Component: EPS_ZFLS Kl. 290 3305
Revision: 00H22000
Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
VCID: 3753C99446562DA6659-8062

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv.
Cannot be reached

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 47: Sound System (R12) Labels: 3T0-035-456.clb
Part No SW: 5C6 035 456 HW: 5C6 035 456
Component: KonzernAmp10K H07 0468
Revision: -------- Serial number: --------------
ASAM Dataset: EV_AudioVerst10KanalSTT3 S01001
ROD: EV_AudioVerst10KanalSTT3.rod
VCID: E5EFD3DCE47AEF36875-80B0

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 4F: Centr. Electr. II (J520) Labels: 1K0-907-532.clb
Part No SW: 7N0 907 532 HW: 7N0 907 530 K
Component: EZE_2 H40 1632
Revision: H40 Serial number: --------------
Coding: 01030108
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
VCID: EFC3B1F43E862566FD9-80BA

Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 561 959 591 HW: 561 959 591
Component: J245 P05 FFD7 H07 0004
Coding: 181100

Subsystem 2 - Part No SW: 561 919 204 B HW: 561 919 204 B
Component: Analoguhr 008 0004

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 52: Door Elect, Pass. (J387) Labels: 3C0-959-70X-GEN4.clb
Part No SW: 561 959 702 A HW: 3C0 959 792 C
Component: TUER-SG BT 002 0525
Revision: 14110009 Serial number: ----------
Coding: 0405FC
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
ASAM Dataset: EV_TSGBPQ25BRFVW46X A04001
ROD: EV_TSGBPQ25BRFVW46X.rod
VCID: 1D1F3B3C0CAA67F69F5-8048

Slave Passenger:
Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 561 959 812 HW: 561 959 812 Labels: 1K0-959-70X-GEN4.CLB
Component: J389__TSG_HR 004 4472
Serial number: --------------------
Coding: 800000

1 Fault Found:
131584 - Motor for Rear Window Regulator
B11EE 54 [009] - Missing Calibration / Basic Setting
Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 7
Fault Frequency: 1


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio (J0506) Labels: 1T0-035-680.clb
Part No SW: 3C0 035 684 J HW: 3C0 035 684 G
Component: RNS-MID H02 4366
Revision: AB001001 Serial number: --------------
Coding: 0409004204000090000B
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
VCID: 2A75E0E045E4804EEA7-807F

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 7L6 919 859
Component: NAR V6 7963

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 77: Telephone (J412) Labels: 3C8-035-730-A.clb
Part No SW: 3C8 035 730 D HW: 3C8 035 730 D
Component: Telefon 022 0982
Revision: -------- Serial number: --------------
Coding: 020000010100010000000101
Shop #: WSC 09003 957 00200
ASAM Dataset: EV_UHVPremi 002709
ROD: EV_UHVPremi_SE36.rod
VCID: 24690ED82FC0563ED0B-8071

No fault code found.

Kill, jumpstart and battery charge?

Do you mind being more specific as to what exactly you did?

i accidentally left the fog-lights on overnight, went to start it the nest morning and it turned over for about 10 seconds then "gave up"
jump started it with our 98-ish Tahoe snow plow truck
then put it on a battery charger for ~20 minutes- after this we took it for a drive up to ~80 M.P.H. to get like 3 foot of snow off of it...
that was yesterday...
today we finally read and cleared the codes...

Why not just drive it for a bit after the jump? Maybe you could have skipped the battery charge?

I wonder if the NMS throw all those codes if the battery is disconnected/dies or if this was a result of jumping it. I don't see how charging it would throw a code...

The codes are probably just from the dead battery and not from the jump start or the battery charger.

Edit: to be a bit more specific, the low voltage condition during cranking probably caused all of the modules to stop responding, hence the codes.

VeeDubTDI said:

The codes are probably just from the dead battery and not from the jump start or the battery charger.

Edit: to be a bit more specific, the low voltage condition during cranking probably caused all of the modules to stop responding, hence the codes.

Click to expand...

Yep. What he said. Dead or removed battery will throw a lot of codes, including abs and tpms. Clear codes. Drive more. Worry less.

I'm assuming these were not factory fogs? I've left mine on, and it seems that the BCM turns all lights off eventually.

vw_norm said:

Yep. What he said. Dead or removed battery will throw a lot of codes, including abs and tpms. Clear codes.

Click to expand...

So if I were to disconnect the battery for some reason, and all those codes get thrown, I will be unable to drive the car until they're cleared?

PassatSE4me said:

So if I were to disconnect the battery for some reason, and all those codes get thrown, I will be unable to drive the car until they're cleared?

Click to expand...

Why would you be unable to drive it?

Well it's not all bad into end.

But what I would like to say is this is I saw more years before VW, BMW's is like this if you are discharged battery completely. So what I was trying to say, that is how behind BMW all other manufactures, so people are getting those codes and freaking out. But it's sad on other hand, I bought 89 Porsche 944 that has (no electronic throttle control, no coils, no electronics, just simple fuel ingestion) expect ABS, and it's feel good that I can connect or disconnect battery and don't have to spend next hour do adaptions settings, like window, stability control, steering position and ect.

VeeDubTDI said:

Why would you be unable to drive it?

Click to expand...

Because the codes aren't cleared? Just making sure this isn't the case.

And as far as clearing the codes, how is that accomplished?

PassatSE4me said:

Because the codes aren't cleared? Just making sure this isn't the case.



And as far as clearing the codes, how is that accomplished?

Click to expand...

It will drive just fine with the codes present. They can be cleared with VCDS.

The codes just indicate what failure events happened and when. They don't prevent the vehicle from operating.

so after 3 tries, the ABS code will NOT clear- any ideas?
my first guess is that it will go away on its own but i am not sure...

Give it some time (mileage) and it should clear or let you clear it. If it still refuses to go away, then something got damaged.

All those codes are normal to pop up whenever the voltage gets dropped lower then lowest acceptable voltage set in each module. So turn ignition on, engine off, and go into each module and clear codes manual, don't use the autoscan function to clear codes as it not always able to clear all codes. If fault codes in ABS don't clear up then post what code it is here, also check fuses make sure none are blown out from over voltage shock when you were jump starting car.
BTW maybe you should change your thread title to something more less of freaking out, to someting like "jump started car now ABS codes dont clear up......"

I didn't see anything in this thread worth reading. If there's no lights on the dashboard and everything functions as designed, drive the car and forget it.

VeeDubTDI said:

It will drive just fine with the codes present. They can be cleared with VCDS.

Click to expand...

Ok, thanks!

Losha said:

BTW maybe you should change your thread title to something more less of freaking out, to someting like "jump started car now ABS codes dont clear up......"

Click to expand...

Not to mention giving the impression that jumpstarting or charging the car will cause damage.

N4TECguy said:

I didn't see anything in this thread worth reading.

Click to expand...

Yet you posted in it. Brilliant!

PassatSE4me said:

Yet you posted in it. Brilliant!

Click to expand...

Yes it was a hint to moderators/OP that maybe the thread should be closed. These types of threads - high on data, short on info - cause people to freak out and clutter up searches...it's one reason why a lot of people don't bother and/or can't find good info.

N4TECguy said:

Yes it was a hint to moderators/OP that maybe the thread should be closed. These types of threads - high on data, short on info - cause people to freak out and clutter up searches...it's one reason why a lot of people don't bother and/or can't find good info.

Click to expand...

If you're that concerned about it PM one of the mods directly.

No need to clutter up a useless thread any further with another useless post.

I wouldn't say this thread is useless, as other people will probably encounter this situation at some point in the future.

I'll edit the thread title when I get home so that it produces more useful search results.

The biggest contributor to difficult results is multiple threads about the same subject. Search before posting and post your information in existing thread if there is one available. Chances are you'll find multiple threads on the same issue - if so, post your findings in the thread with the most relevant information.

VeeDubTDI said:

I wouldn't say this thread is useless...

Click to expand...

I don't think it's useless at all. I was simply trying to make a point to Mr. Nate.

N4TECguy said:

I didn't see anything in this thread worth reading. If there's no lights on the dashboard and everything functions as designed, drive the car and forget it.

Click to expand...

Sometimes having too much information can be a bad thing.

There was actually some good information in the post. Jump starting and letting the alternator charge a dead battery is a last resort / emergency activity. It is not good for the alternator to charge a dead battery. It's designed to maintain a charge. Can it do it - sure.. have I done it - yes, but I try not too. Hook up a charger and wait until the battery is charged if possible.

What was the question?

(...sorry...I'm being a real a-hole here, as I got stuck on the part about "driving 80mph to get 3 feet of snow off the car"...blinding the guys behind him...)

One of the funniest//scariest things I saw this season here in TX with the recent snow/ice was some bozo driving around like that. He went to stop in fromt of my house, and the entire slab of crud on the roof kept going and plopped over the wimdshield like a plate! Fortunately, no damage, but on occasion, as I tell my jkids, "learning may be painful".

- Tim