HELP! No start! 109 relay? buzzing relay under hood?

Took family to a restaurant, car wouldn't start after! '96 Passat TDI. 99965 miles. The lights in the dash, including glow plug, go on then off in a odd pattern. Quick no delay. The dash cluster lights otherwise seem normal. I've read the posts about the 109 relay, don't (yet) have a Bently manual, but from what I've read on these posts the 109 is in up under the dash by the fusebox? Recent battery, good lights, power itself seems fine. NO CRANK WHATSOEVER. Starter not getting juice, Have had the ign. switch replaced, but that was some time ago, perhaps six months, daily driver, thousands of miles since, and the symptoms are not the same. I suppose it could be that, but, doubt it... Checked the two clear plastic covered fuseable links, they seem fine, but the one next to the firewall has a relay, the coil of which is semi-exposed, that is buzzing. Purring, really, and it does so with the ign in the ON position. Bumping the key to start causes headlights to drop, as usual, but no clicking or turning at starter. To be honest, I can't remember if the purring stopped during the key-to-start position or not. Does the 109 relay up under the dash send power to that relay? Of course, it's night time and raining! The car is still at the restaurant, near home thankfully, and we bummed a ride home from a friend who lives nearby. I suspect some kind of relay problem, and if it is, are they available from regular sources or stealer only? THANKS SO MUCH IN ADVANCE for your help, guys...

Sorry, to clarify: The fuseable link back on the firewall has a relay right NEXT to it that is the one that 's buzzing. The fuseable link IS slightly deformed in the center, but not melted or broken...

I have read here that your car doesn't have the dreaded Relay 109, but I do not know that having only read it here. I have the ALH engine with the Relay 109 that did indeed fail on my car.

But I am wondering: you had the ignition switch replaced 6 months ago. Was that for the same symptom? The power to start the car generally goes directly from the ignition switch to the solenoid on the starter. Yes indeed if this solenoid fails, your car will not start. Of course starter brushes have the same effect....
As you can see I am thinking starter.

Then on to the dash lights: are you saying everything is normal but that the glow plug indicator goes out fairly quickly? If it is warm wherever you are that would be normal, if it is cold that points to coolant temperature sensor or glow plug relay.

The more I think about this I have to say "find someone with VagCom!" and have the codes read if any. No codes, my vote for the starter wins.

Curious: No, the symptom from the ign. switch replacement was a problem in the switch causing occassional loss of some circuts, lights, etc., that would/could go back on if you jiggled the key. If the engine was running when this happened, it would stay running. This does not seem starter like to me, though it's certainly possible that it would up and die with no warning, but there is no click or noise of any kind from the starter area at all. Is the relay back by the firewall that I'm describing the glow-plug relay? The indicator lights, glow plug included, are just acting strange, I mean, I can't really describe it accurately, it's just, well, a different pattern than normal. I actually noticed it when I first turned the key BEFORE I tried to bump the starter. It flashed through my head that that was a bit odd, then, no start...

This is going to sound dumb... but which is the ALH engine? The A3? A4?

Originally posted by duteman:
This is going to sound dumb... but which is the ALH engine? The A3? A4?

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ALH is in the A4's - the Passat would not have an ALH. Where are you in CT?

Newington, CT. Update: Just went back to the car, been three hours now, all the dash lights seem normal with the exception of the glow plug light. I know it's warm out, but it just is not staying on as long as I think it should. Perhaps a third to a half a second, then off. I can hear a relay click as the light goes out, I assume that's the glow plug relay. It sounds like it's from under/in the dash, center area... Tomorrow morning should be cold enough for the glow plug light to fire a bit longer...

Maybe a bad solinoid on the starter, or bad brushes. Is there power going to the small wire on the starter when you turn the key to the start(crank) position? If there is then the problem is in the starter. If not try running 12v directly from the battery to get it running and get it home. If its a 5 speed you could push start it.

I was going to check for all the obvious stuff like voltage to the starter tomorrow AM when it's light out and not raining! I guess I'm thinking that it seems relay related rather than starter related because I don't hear the starter drive attempting to engage, no click, etc., and I do hear that relay next to the fuseable link buzzing. I don't have a manual with troubleshooting flowcharts for glow-plug circuits, etc., so I don't know if a failure in the glow plug circuit would cause a cascading failure...

Hopefully Gofaster will read this thread...he's got the same year/model of your ride, and is most knowledgeable and helpful.

Sorry I'm not able to provide any useful ideas other than this free 'bump'.

Well, it's Sunday AM and I'm off to try the obvious, and at worst, tow the car home. It's only about a mile and a half away. Thanks for the help, people, I'll keep you posted. Boy, would I like this to be starter or relay related! Can't stand the thought of ECU replacement...

Where can I get set up with VAG-COM?

Well, JB79, there was no power to the starter solenoid's small red wire when key turned to start position. The good news is, it push started just fine. It's now home in the driveway, and I'm seeking a troubleshooting flowchart on line? Does such a thing exist? THANKS IN ADVANCE again, folks, ANY help is appreciated...

Well so much for the easy starter change. I would look first at fuses and that buzzing relay. Sorry i can't offer much more then that i don't have any manuals for your car.
Worst case is run another wire to the starter and put in a push buttton. Until you get it figured out, at least you would be able to get around.

no power to the solonoid control wire indicates the ignition switch or related wiring.. maybe the replacement switch is faulty or the plug isn't fully seated? Bent or corroded pins on the connector? And what does that buzzing relay do? Got a part number?

[ March 10, 2002, 10:31: Message edited by: tadc ]

If the "buzzing" device is the device that has red, blue, and black hoses going to it (it's right next to the fusible link that you describe), that's your N75 boost control solenoid valve, and it's NORMAL for that to click or buzz away.

The fact that the car push started ok indicates that everything is all good except the starter control system. There is no clutch interlock switch on this car, so that's obviously not the problem. The only thing between the battery and the starter control solenoid on this car is the ignition switch, so that's where I'd start. One other thing, make sure the connection at the starter motor is not corroded (and not letting electricity through).

If you run a temporary wire from the small terminal on the starter up and out, and then touch it to the battery, does the starter motor operate? (MAKE SURE YOU'RE NOT IN GEAR!!!! and take the small wire off the starter motor terminal so you don't feed juice back into a circuit where it doesn't belong with the key off.) If so, starter motor is fine.

Yes, the "buzzing relay" is the coil with the hoses attached. Boy, I could use a good book right about now. Thanks for the info on that one... My car DOES have a black 109 relay up in the relay portion of the fuse box ...what does that relay do? There is a metal encased relay next to it that is, I guess, the glow plug relay? It clicks when the glow-plug light goes out. re: Ign. switch... I'm ALWAYS one to suspect work done by a dealer, but this problem immediately happened. No amount of key jiggling fixes anything, and I would think if a connector has loosened for the back of the switch, I'd see other electrical anomolies. All other functions of the ignition switch seem fine. re: the control wire to the starter, I could not find my trusty test light, so in a pinch, used a volt-ohm meter, and may have had it set wrong...I had it set for voltage, removed the connector, probed it with the + wire from the meter, the - I placed on battery ground. Nothing when we turned the key to start. Did I do that right? I thought I should have voltage there when key turned to start? At this point I'd REALLY like this to be a starter problem! I'd HATE to deal with the dealer to have them re-work a switch problem at this late date... Could I have a ground-wire gremlin somewhere?

Yes, the "buzzing relay" is the coil with the hoses attached. Boy, I could use a good book right about now. Thanks for the info on that one... My car DOES have a black 109 relay up in the relay portion of the fuse box ...what does that relay do? There is a metal encased relay next to it that is, I guess, the glow plug relay? It clicks when the glow-plug light goes out. re: Ign. switch... I'm ALWAYS one to suspect work done by a dealer, but this problem immediately happened. No amount of key jiggling fixes anything, and I would think if a connector has loosened for the back of the switch, I'd see other electrical anomolies. All other functions of the ignition switch seem fine. re: the control wire to the starter, I could not find my trusty test light, so in a pinch, used a volt-ohm meter, and may have had it set wrong...I had it set for voltage, removed the connector, probed it with the + wire from the meter, the - I placed on battery ground. Nothing when we turned the key to start. Did I do that right? I thought I should have voltage there when key turned to start? At this point I'd REALLY like this to be a starter problem! I'd HATE to deal with the dealer to have them re-work a switch problem at this late date... Could I have a ground-wire gremlin somewhere?

Someone had a similar problem a few weeks ago. The thread detailed some diagnostic procedures (looking for voltage and continuity on ignition switch wiring). You might want to search for it.

He finally figured out it was the ignition switch. It had been replace some time earlier as I remember and had gone bad again.

The clutch doesn't have to be depressed to start it does it? If automatic, another interlock maybe not working right?

Sounds like you're probing for voltage on the starter wire correctly. Make sure your "helper" (I assume someone's turning the key for you) isn't getting fooled by the only-turns-to-'start'-once VW ignition cylinder.

as stated previously you should be able to apply +12v to the small terminal on the starter and determine if it's the switch/wiring or just the starter.

I don't much about the mechanics of the TDI
but I just installed a stereo in my '99 jetta and afterwards it wouldn't start or even turn over so I called my dealership and they said tow it there (yeah right 1000 kms tow bill no thanks)
anyways me , my stereo installer and a mechanic friend went entirely through my jetta and found a burnt out interior light to be the cause of my troubles