Slow Cranking? -- What's the spec. crank speed?

eb2143

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'01 TDI sounds like it's cranking slowly and is starting slowly when cold.
Hooked up VAG-COM today and disconnected the pump's electronics to determine a number to go with what I've been hearing: found 210 rpm max, more like 185 avg.

I've read here 300 rpm is required for good cold starts, but other than that one reference, haven't found anything else to back that number up.

300 correct?
TIA
 

eb2143

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250 is what I remember.
I just finished a search back to 1999, and found nothing really, but I did come across one person (ymz) saying the same thing: under 250 and the ECU cuts fueling...well that doesn't make sense because it starts, albeit a little slow (4-6 seconds cranking).

So if 250 is considered a minimum of sorts, I'm guessing 210 is way lower than ideal.
 

Zero10

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Jan 16, 2004
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Calgary, AB
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05 Golf TDI PD, Tiptronic
My PD cranks at 280-320RPM hot, 220-250RPM "cool" and 150-185RPM at -30*C. Even at -30 the ECU shows that it has detected the engine spinning and starts fueling (start synchronization goes to 42). I don't think 250 is really the minimum (assuming the ALH has the same threshold as the BEW).
 

eb2143

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Zero, thanks for the info. 210 may not be very slow after all (this number was at 35º F)...sounds a little slower than yours but not much.

Anybody else, with good cold starts, have cranking speeds on cool engines?

If 210 does turn out to be definitively slow, I'll start looking into the starter and get the battery on a charger (correct sized/spec battery is only 14 months old, reman starter is 5 months old). If 210 is alright, I'll start looking more carefully at the engine, although timing is spot on.
 
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BobnOH

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central Ohio
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New Beetle 2003 manual
have you ever cleaned the clutch dust out of your starter? my car cranks slow below 10F, it always starts. I'm sure my starter is dirty as I get the "duck quack" noise
 

eb2143

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Video Update: This is Pathetic

15º F this morning: this is the cranking I got (car had been sitting for 2 days):
By the way, you can't hear it, but I waited until the relay clicked for the GPs, light goes out several seconds prior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVPvTcQbpNg

According to the tach, we're talking about well less than 100 rpm here. So we can put to rest that myth that about the pump not injecting fuel below 150 rpm or 250 rpm, or whatever they say

To summarize:
My original starter was squealing, and because the cleaning fix is temporary, I decided to just jump for a new starter at my mileage. I really regret this.

• On June 15, 2008 @ 183,380 miles I replaced the starter with a certified Bosch reman from what was then tdiparts.com. Sent back my old starter as a core return. Always starts immediately in the summer, so it wasn't until the winter of 2008 that I noticed cranking speed was pretty bad in cold weather. I've been trying to get my cranking speed back since. It simply drops off precipitously as temperature drops.

• I thought the Autozone Duralast Gold 94R battery that I had purchased in 2007 @ 173,780 miles was weak, so I replaced it with an EverStart from Wal-Mart in December 2009. Cranking did seem to get slightly better with the new battery, but still not anywhere near 250 or 300 rpm. Just barely made it through last winter, plugged in as much as possible.

• Thought the connections to the starter and to the battery might be corroded or loose. Cleaned and tightened; nothing was found loose either.

• Thought that grounds may have gotten corroded, looked okay, but cleaned all grounds under the battery anyway.

• Thought that grounding strap and power cable to the starter may be corroded (they were visibly corroded), replaced those.

• Thought alternator might be overcharging or undercharging batteries and killing them; haven't ruled out overcharging (was charging at 14.4 volts) but definitely is maintaining battery voltage at 12.4 to 12.5 volts)

• Ruled out excessive static current draw killing batteries.

• Had a fancy Snap-On tool computer check voltage drop and starter amp draw while cranking for an extended period with the pump electronics disconnected: it passed all tests according to that machine.

• Have been considering the unlikely circumstances:
a. maybe the glow plugs are drawing too much power (don't ask me how), and taking a serious chunk out of the battery's reserve before cranking starts.
b. I accidently was delivered a 2.0/1.8t starter, which is 80% weaker than the TDI/VR6 starters.

So: New (reman) starter going in this week, any guesses to the outcome?
 
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eb2143

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5W-40...the only weight that's ever been used in it. Cranked fine until 2006 when the original battery was on the rocks. Cranked okay in winter of 2007 after a new battery (Autozone) was installed in fall of 2007. Hasn't cranked fast enough since winter 2008/2009 when the Autozone was paired with the Bosch reman starter. I've since done everything listed above trying to rectify it.

I just thought it was highly unlikely that Bosch could have screwed up a rebuild, so considered it the least likely culprit. I paid about 100% more than the NAPA/Autozone options for this Bosch thinking it was a "premium" rebuild.

REALLY hope a new starter fixes this.
 

paul_cat

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Apr 4, 2001
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Bowie, MD
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2001 Golf TDI [ALH]
I have the Autozone battery too, and I've never been totally pleased with it. Like yours, it doesn't crank too well in the cold. But mine's not as bad as yours, it still works. I would put a 2 amp charger on it, and LEAVE IT ON for a few days (several over-nights if you drive it during the day). Just to make sure it has a complete charge. I did that last week (before our recent deep freeze), and it made a big difference. Typical car charging systems never bring it up to 100%, so try the 2 amp charger "trick" to get it there. If that fails take it back to Autozone and complain, and get a pro-rated refund on a new one (that battery has a long warranty). Good Luck and let us know... FWIW, I got my charger at WalMart for cheap; has 2 amp and 6 amp settings but it's not "automatic", which is just fine for me. It has come in handy over the years, worth having one in your tool collection. -=Paul=-
 

eb2143

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Thanks Paul, but I no longer have the Autozone (see above, post #8)

I have had the EverStart from Wal-Mart since early last winter that many members regularly in the cold with good success. It is possible I got two dud batteries, I suppose.

Now the one wrench in my starter theory is that last winter, on December 16th, 2009 (I keep an Excel file), I tried to start the engine cold at -20ºC /0ºF. The engine turned over so slow that it didn't have a prayer of starting. Made a couple cranks before dying. [NOTE: This was on the Autozone battery. Shortly after, I replaced it with the EverStart and made it through the winter, just barely (it was pretty mild from then on out)].

Anyway, but when I jumped it it started right up and *appeared* to be cranking quite quickly (started so quickly that I didn't actually get a good feel for how fast it was cranking, but I assume quickly) :confused:

Since I can return this starter I just bought, I figured it was only my labor at stake so I would try it before revisiting the battery/grounds.
 
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eb2143

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eb2143 said:
• Have been considering the unlikely circumstances:
a. maybe the glow plugs are drawing too much power (don't ask me how), and taking a serious chunk out of the battery's reserve before cranking starts.
b. I accidentally was delivered a 2.0/1.8t starter, which is 80% weaker than the TDI/VR6 starters.
Hmm:
Here's the starter I removed today (that job wasn't any more pleasant the second time around on the driveway, but did go smoother than the first time)...The problem wasn't the rebuild, it was asking a (1.1 KW) boy to do a (2.0 kW) man's job.




For reference from AutohausAz:


Problem solved, finally: cranks like a champ with the 1.7 KW NAPA.

SR0425X is for M/T 1.8t/2.0 engines and is 1.1 kW
SR0408X is for M/T ALH TDIs and are 1.8 kW
SR0407X is for A/T ALH TDIs and are 1.8 kW

Few other notes:
- I liked the NAPA offering because it came with a spec sheet with the bench test results, very detailed.
- The warranty is better than Bosch: Three-year free replacement.
 
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eb2143

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-2º F Video,

Thought someone may want to see what difference the TDI-rated starter makes in cold weather. The only thing changed from the pathetic video and this video is the starter, oh, and it's a lot colder out for this start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yUiPf0lIF4

My cold-start smoke has decreased since replacement the starter as less fuel is injected before start up.
 

djhedges

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Hood River, OR
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2002 Beetle
Kudos for putting this post together. We had swapped the starter in 2014 because greasing the bendix was only a temporary solution. I reserved the part number at a local Napa store online and sure enough it was the SR0425X part number. I suspect Napa use to list it as a compatible starter.

I don't recall a weak start in 2014. But the last two years it had really gotten sluggish. Tried a new battery and cleaned the grounds several times with no luck. Always assumed the starter was fresh and couldn't be the problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdV4wKuAwjg
 

BobnOH

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central Ohio
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New Beetle 2003 manual
Kudos for putting this post together. We had swapped the starter in 2014 because greasing the bendix was only a temporary solution. I reserved the part number at a local Napa store online and sure enough it was the SR0425X part number. I suspect Napa use to list it as a compatible starter.

I don't recall a weak start in 2014. But the last two years it had really gotten sluggish. Tried a new battery and cleaned the grounds several times with no luck. Always assumed the starter was fresh and couldn't be the problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdV4wKuAwjg
Seems you can't trust anyone to pull a part anymore, even the dealer, with VIN, I've gotten the wrong stuff. Before I came to Fred's I went thru 2 sub par batteries from NAPA and Interstate.
 

BobnOH

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central Ohio
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New Beetle 2003 manual
Well that looks like a part to avoid.

Don't the TDIs use a different starter?
Says OEM Bosch, but its made by PartsPayer.
 

PickensSC

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Why would you say it needs to be avoided? It has twenty reviews and all of them 4 or 5 stars and at least 5 say they're installed on mk4 tdi's. I think the add is clear that it's not a Bosch it says the model is Bosch PMGR and the brand is Parts Player. I understand it's on "Amazon" and isn't $200 but what makes you say avoid it.
 

BobnOH

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central Ohio
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New Beetle 2003 manual
Cause of the price, the fact that it's sold at Amazon and ebay, the warranty and the unknown reputation of the builder. I actually looked at the ad, looked at Partsplayer website. It's just my opinion, it might be the best starter ever made, idk. Perhaps someone who has used that part can chime in.
 

PickensSC

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Herm TDI

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2002 Golf GLS Malone Stage 3, P+520 nozzles, 11MM Inj pump, Sachs VR6 clutch, Stelth Race Pipe, Immo Deleat, EGR Deleat
'01 TDI sounds like it's cranking slowly and is starting slowly when cold.
Hooked up VAG-COM today and disconnected the pump's electronics to determine a number to go with what I've been hearing: found 210 rpm max, more like 185 avg.

I've read here 300 rpm is required for good cold starts, but other than that one reference, haven't found anything else to back that number up.

300 correct?
TIA
The designated engine start cranking speed for diesel igntion in the MK-4 is 175 RPM.
This info comes from the VW "DI" build specifications.
All factors considered, Engine indexing (crankshaft, cam shaft and inj pump correctly indexed) and the correct battery CCA (Cold Cranking Amperage) is installed. The engine should start at any temperature ABOVE -20*F
 
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Herm TDI

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The 2nd thing you can do is to extend the Glow Plug (GP) duty cycle.
There are instruction (on this forum) of how to use VCDS to adjust (extend) the GP duty cycle for prestart.
 

Herm TDI

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Richmond, Maine...The far side of Witsend
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I will also add that elevated electrical circut impeadence (on older systems) due corrosion (oxidized) battery cables will cause a problem. High electrical circut resistance can casue starting problems. You may want to (if suspected) check the battery cables for high resistance and inspect for corroded battery cables and ground points.
 
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The Cream Dolphin

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I purchased one of these starters and installed it this weekend. My car started right up where it used to hesitate and almost die before. The starter came with a test sheet that showed what currents, speed, torque, and other tests. Seems like a good unit. If it dies early I'll add that.
Bumping an old thread, but how did this hold up? Thinking of ordering one. Mine cranks very slow for the first start, better on a warm engine. Sped up slightly after a full Wingnut Re&Re, but still not great. It is likely the original stock starter in there, so 21 years old I feel like a new one would help out. I just want it to start like my brothers BEW...
 

J_dude

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Bumping an old thread, but how did this hold up? Thinking of ordering one. Mine cranks very slow for the first start, better on a warm engine. Sped up slightly after a full Wingnut Re&Re, but still not great. It is likely the original stock starter in there, so 21 years old I feel like a new one would help out. I just want it to start like my brothers BEW...
I would just add, (like was said before) if it looks too good to be true, it usually is...
$80 for a good starter is hard to believe.
From what I hear you can’t go wrong with a starter from @Mozambiquer, if you do end up going for a new one.

First though, how are your battery cables and ground points? I assume you’ve eliminated those possible problem areas from the list before considering a new starter..?
 

fatmobile

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Crank for a while then feel for any warm/hot cable connections at grounds, starter and battery.
Bad connections or even contacts inside the solenoid will get warm at least.
So don't burn yourself.
 

Mozambiquer

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Bumping an old thread, but how did this hold up? Thinking of ordering one. Mine cranks very slow for the first start, better on a warm engine. Sped up slightly after a full Wingnut Re&Re, but still not great. It is likely the original stock starter in there, so 21 years old I feel like a new one would help out. I just want it to start like my brothers BEW...
What you'll need is a Valeo starter, not the Chinese knockoff 1.7kw starter. Those starters are very poorly made and have a very soft drive which wears out and often takes the flywheel ring gear out.
 

The Cream Dolphin

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I would just add, (like was said before) if it looks too good to be true, it usually is...
$80 for a good starter is hard to believe.
From what I hear you can’t go wrong with a starter from @Mozambiquer, if you do end up going for a new one.

First though, how are your battery cables and ground points? I assume you’ve eliminated those possible problem areas from the list before considering a new starter..?

I have already checked cables, grounds, new battery that is the right size. Thanks for the tips.
 
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