www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI Power Enhancements

TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 24th, 2010, 17:51   #46
nicklockard
Torque Dorque
 
nicklockard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Arizona
Fuel Economy: No data yet.
Default

Amen. The ONLY way an aftermarket "cai" will make your car faster is if you've been saving up the money for one in pennies and carrying them around in your car. Thus when you go to purchase said "cai" your car is 50 lbs lighter.

And faster.


Leave well enough alone unless you just like to burn money pointlessly.
nicklockard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24th, 2010, 18:37   #47
JSWTDI09
Veteran Member
 
JSWTDI09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by emantman View Post
So I want to know how it would hurt my car if I increase the air flow (and hence oxygen) when I'm always at a high altitude (99.9% of the time)?

Please any suggestions, comments, thoughts, etc... would be much appreciated! I love my TDI!
One additional comment. The primary reason why aftermarket intakes can flow more air is because they filter it less. They flow more air because they cause less restriction, they cause less restriction because they don't filter the air as well. Less filtration equals more dirt getting through the intake and into the engine. Can you think of any advantage in sucking more dirt into your engine? Flowing more air is ONLY an advantage if the stock system can't flow enough for the engines needs. Also a dynamically controlled turbocharger does a pretty good job of making up for differences in ambient air pressure (altitude).

Read this entire thread - it's full of data and graphs showing poorer filtration with increased airflow. If you really need to spend money - buy whatever you want, just don't expect much in the way of provable positive results.

Have Fun!

Don
__________________
2009 Jetta SportWagen TDI (gone but not forgotten)
2018 VW Tiguan SE (I wish it was a TDI)
JSWTDI09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24th, 2010, 19:30   #48
Got Bearings?
Veteran Member
 
Got Bearings?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SoCal
Fuel Economy: 36 / 50
Default

The best cure for your lack of high altitude power is more boost. It's common to turn up the boost in high altitude areas as long as the turbo can handle it. I have no idea if your turbo can handle it. Other than that, a tune will help.

You lose approximately 1% of power output for every increase in 1000 feet of Density Altitude. Depending on the atmospheric conditions, your static altitude of 6,000' may actually feel like 8,000 or 4,000 depending on the atmospheric conditions (barometer, temp, dew point, humidity).

Here's a good calc
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp_dp.htm
__________________
The New Commuter Car: 2009 Cadillac CTS-V 556 HP, 6.2L Supercharged V-8, 6 speed manual
The Old Commuter Car: 01 Golf GLS TDI WRECKED AND GONE!
The Slow Car: 95 Impala SS 383, 6 speed, 391HP , 440TQ
Looking for Battery Cables, better & cheaper than OEM? Click here for info
Got Bearings? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2011, 13:54   #49
Curtis328
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drivbiwire View Post
General rule of thumb:

Replace the filter when:
-25-30" of H2o restriction
-4 years
-100,000 miles
-Whichever occurs first.

If you have a Snow Screen installed, clean it every 10K by removing ONLY the base retaining bolts, NEVER EVER open a filter to take
a Look, if you want to inspect the filter, it can be viewed on both sides when removing the UNOPENED BOX from the car.

-Remove the two 10mm bolts DO NOT REMOVE THE TWO philips screws securiung the top of the box to the lower portion!!!
-On the MAF sensor, remove the two philip screws holding the MAF sensor to the box.
-Once the MAF is removed you can inspect the upper and lower sides of the filter. The filter MUST look dirty, as long as there are no tears in the pleats, press on and don't mess with it.
Just wondering why you stress to never open the airbox to check the condition of the filter. I've never thought there was a problem with opening an airbox...
Curtis328 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2011, 15:08   #50
Bob_Fout
Oil Wanker
 
Bob_Fout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Indiana
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis328 View Post
Just wondering why you stress to never open the airbox to check the condition of the filter. I've never thought there was a problem with opening an airbox...
The seal (the foam/rubber) may not conform correctly again, allowing unfiltered air past.
__________________
2003 Jetta TDI (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Photos | Mods | CJ-4 Oils | Oil Analysis | Stage II Cam
Bob_Fout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2011, 18:55   #51
Jack Frost
Veteran Member
 
Jack Frost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Rural Manitoba
Default

I think what was meant is that if you open the air filter box, you should replace the air filter. The old gasket may have lost its resilience and not form a proper seal if it is reassembled with the air box.
__________________
2009 TDI, Spice Red with Black Interior, DSG, Purelli Winter Tires, VW Block Heater
1996 Suburu Legacy (wife)
John Deere 2130 Diesel Tractor
1989 Ford Mustang 5.0 (gone but not forgotton)
Jack Frost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25th, 2011, 19:02   #52
ChippedNotBroken
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Pocono\'s, NYC
Fuel Economy: 50,45
Default

Here is the video I promised. The vacuum gauge doesn't budge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YDG2GpuxmE

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChippedNotBroken View Post
While pulling about 40# of boost at 5000 RPM the vacuum gauge on my air filter did not budge. I took a video while it was on the rollers, I will try to figure out how to post it when I have time after my dad goes back to florida.
__________________
1999.5 Green Jetta MrChill'd and Wild Bill'd then it got the Whitbread build, Bleached 'n Nick'd and idi'd, RC'd, RyanP'd then fine'ly Jasonified.
Youtube video of smoke
Youtube video of vacuum restriction
Quote:
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. TJ
ChippedNotBroken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 2nd, 2011, 22:38   #53
KERMA
 
KERMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: here
Default

I don't into a cone filter benefiting any otherwise stock car, and here's why: (BEW for example)

Diesel operates on a fuel throttle, not air. More fuel= more power, period. More fuel is the only way to make more power. The lambda (a/f ratio) varies widely, from 0.8 to 10 (these are factory ecu calibration limits, anyway). Diesel does not require a fixed (stoichiometric) air/fuel ratio, so adding more airflow without fuel won't add power, especially when you are already running "lean" in gasser terms. Yes, it has a lambda sensor, but it doesn't serve the same function in the same way as a gasser. At full load, the lambda map(s) is/are a fuel limiter, not a fuel/air ratio regulator.

The max power the factory setup can make, with the factory ecu calibration, is NOT airflow limited, it is limited by the 2d torque map at full throttle. (yes, I know it's really 3d, but let's pretend it acts like a 2d map for the sake of argument). Once you hit about 85% throttle position it's done, no more fuel (power) for you, in the factory calibration. At high altitude it's less throttle before you hit the limit. The smoke map(s) stops being limiting at full throttle, by design, about 2500 rpm. From then on up it's what's commonly referred to as the "torque" map that limits full power.

You can observe this by data logging vag-com measuring blocks group 8, which displays the torque request alongside the rpm/altitude limiter and the "smoke" limit.

Group 3 will show the airflow. EVEN IF the new filter did somehow increase the max airflow, it wouldn't matter for making more peak power, because airflow is not limiting above 2500 rpm IN A CAR WITH FACTORY ECU

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO BENEFIT TO AN OTHERWISE COMPLETELY STOCK CAR

There MIGHT be an argument to be made about better turbo spool at lower rpm, or maybe better torque at lower rpm, IF you can show a shift in the MAF-based fuel limiter to max out at a lower rpm, for example.

You could say there's less smoke in a stock car "before the turbo spools", which is immaterial with a properly operating VNT and maf sensor

You could even argue the benefits for turbo safety in a tuned car, (lower pressure ratio for the compressor due to "less restriction" -what a lovely catchall phrase that is), but if you don't improve the intake tract after the maf (OMI) then you still haven't fixed the problem.

You might could say smoke is reduced in a tuned car, but unless you are maf-limited it won't matter, any way.

If there is a dyno showing a benefit, I would tend to suspect the test car had a bad maf, or something similar. There have been numerous dynos of completely stock BEW at very close to the rated HP/TQ of 100 hp and 177 ft-lb. (VW rates these cars at the wheels) It looks like the second dyno is a healthy, stock car.

Boost pressure is ECU regulated, stock boost, stock airflow. Maybe the turbo doesn't require as much drive pressure to make the boost, resulting in a better delta and a reduced vnt angle, better overall efficiency? Maybe a little, but not 15% gain. Any gain will tend to get lost in the statistical noise.

There are benefits to be had for a modified car, but stock, no way will you see any appreciable magnitude of gains.
__________________
HP is for show, TQ is for go.
celebrating 15 years of: http://www.kermatdi.com
kermatdi on facebook
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. - Neils Bohr
KERMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2011, 11:02   #54
Jethro
Veteran Member
 
Jethro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Los Alamos, NM
Default

I love this thread. Always thought it to be true. However, it falls under the same realm of an exhaust. I want it for the sound.

I am going to get a WIX catalog and find a good tractor filter, and replace the closed air box with an open element. I wanna hear that baby turbo SING!
(In the Diesel truck world, it's called the BHAF -Big Honkin Air Filter-)
We did one on my buddies '03 Stroke, just sounds AMAZING. Love it!

I'm not worried at all about intake air temperature, after the turbo pressurizes it, I can't see it making a tangible difference.
Jethro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2011, 01:25   #55
milesinfront
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Brisbane, Aistralia
Default

This is my first post! Hello all!

I'm am following this series VERY closely:- http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_112211/article.html

Contains some very interesting results after building a high flow intake for a 1.9PDI in a Skoda Roomster...

In short, the high flow intake actually reduced power with the standard tune.

Enjoy!
milesinfront is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2013, 19:10   #56
jcilforever
Veteran Member
 
jcilforever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southeast
Unhappy Sorry tried and failed on tdi cai

Please post this on the sticky at to why CAI's do not work on our cars!

Just want to tell everyone here that they were right about CAI's made to this day not working on a TDI engine. I know this will soon be closed but I wanted to let all of you out there now that while I had advertised the Injen CAI's for sale I did not end up selling any because of what I found out. I did post some information that was overlooked by Injen that was questionable and I am sorry.

The car that it was put on during testing I did not know it had issues because it was a loaner car out in California and I am in the Southeast. I vetted applicants and took the car with the best service history and least mileage. Then set up the testing at the Injen facility.

They worked on the car for 3 days and were able to get a boost in performance but it had a weird dip in the dyno curve. That some of you pointed out.

Yes I did defend it out of blind faith in Injen and I am sorry (will not do that again for any company).

I then asked repeatedly why it was there and could not get a straight answer. They said they did not want to put any more money into the project without selling some but I refused until they would test another car.
I had to front the money in the beginning for 8 units and once I got them I tested it on my 2004 BEW stock car without EGR.

Yes I did offer them for sale before I tested them on my own car because I dealt with Injen in the past as a customer on gassers and was very pleased with quality and results. No CAIs are not the best improvement for the dollar but they improve aesthetics and did give some boost on performance on gassers.

Fast forward I had some people approach me about buying them but did not want to sell them before I tested them on my own car.

Yes I offered them at a GTG for sale but none were sold.

So dyno day came and I did a run with the stock filter and I pulled around 95 hp for a 2004 PD BEW best out of 4 pulls. Then I put the Injen CAI on and did best out of 4 pulls and the car actually went DOWN 5HP!!

So I contacted Injen and tried to get answers for a couple of weeks and could not get any, all that was given to me was well we did the best we could with the car we had, but there was a gain.

Well I knew my car was solid so I shipped all of the CAI's back and lost my shipping and testing investment but did not sell a single one to anyone even though I could have. If I would have I would have refunded their money one I tested them on my car and they failed.

Yes I did offer a product that was not tested by me first for sale but that will be the last time. I am truly sorry.

After that with my health getting worse and Forge not wanting to back the intercoolers on Mk4 diesels in US and me myself having to front the whole project and website for such a limited market just for mk4's ALH and PDs I packed it in and contacted the club here to remove myself as a vendor.

Sorry for the mistake, hope you can take an apology.
Right now I guess I will have to be content with working on them as a hobby and meeting nice people.

As of now I have had the Forge FMIC on my 04 BEW for a year and a half and love it one I worked the bugs out of the hose fittings.

Sorry I disappeared for a few months I was sick (personal illness due to an accident) and I wanted this to blow over and present the truth once things cooled down, got my money back, and could not salvage Forge downsizing involvement in MK4's Diesel's.

I will post the dyno result VCDS logs in my documents once I find them.

All it did was make car sound loader, slow it down by 5hp have dyno, and potentially set it up for hydro lock because of how low below the fender it mounted.

ended up using drop in AFE dry filter to save money because you can wash them overnight with soap and water, not spraying them with high pressure air or water, let them dry then put them in in the morning, saves money over time but now performance loss or gain.

I would appreciate all of those who can forgive me and accept me back into the TDI community. As said before no units were sold no customers were hurt.

Thank you for your understanding

Last edited by jcilforever; August 29th, 2013 at 01:36.
jcilforever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2013, 19:28   #57
TDIMeister
Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast
Moderator at Large
 
TDIMeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Canada
TDI(s): TDI
Default

A cautionary tale, thanks for sharing.
__________________

TDIMeister's German-imported 1998 Audi A4 Avant TDI quattro

Are you receiving unwelcome sales solicitations or inappropriate, harassing messages in your PM? You can report them by pressing the image on the top right of the message in a similar way as reporting inappropriate posts.
TDIMeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 08:20   #58
RDC98tdi
Veteran Member
 
RDC98tdi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Louisville KY
Fuel Economy: Best Tank: 49.5 MPG, Best 80mi trip: 59mpg
Default

I really want to do the APR intake and the new turbo damper pipe for JUST the sound, because stock, the 2013 barely makes ANY turbo noise other than the initial spool, or on the highway in 6th gear if you mash it around 2k RPM. I want the turbo to sing, but it's not worth the hundreds of dollars for maybe 1 extra HP for the damper pipe and slightly more noise from the intake.
RDC98tdi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 13:49   #59
Bob_Fout
Oil Wanker
 
Bob_Fout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Indiana
Default

JCL,

Peak HP went down, but was the powerband wider? [more HP earlier and/or later]
__________________
2003 Jetta TDI (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Photos | Mods | CJ-4 Oils | Oil Analysis | Stage II Cam
Bob_Fout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 14:04   #60
loudspl
Veteran Member
 
loudspl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Osakis, Minnesota
TDI(s): 02 ASV
Fuel Economy: lolz
Default

I think Injen's testing would have been better suited on TDIs with significant mods.

Like Charlie said, there is potentially more to be gained on a highly modded setup vs. something that is close to OEM output..

As far as the hydrolock potential goes, there are several manufacturers that make a water resistant/breathable "sock" to go over the cone...although that might reduce max CFM who knows..
__________________
02 Jetta, 17:1 CR 81mm ASV, block girdle, ported head, custom Colt cam, IE rods, TT springs, cryo gears, Peloquin LSD, Raxles, FueLab Prodigy pump, 12mm/DE143, HFLOX 5 x 0.013, R32 intake, NX nitrous, 6+6 billet BatMo turbo, Bilstein PSS9 coilovers, BFI mounts
MKVII GTI 6MT, full build, 525bhp daily driver

loudspl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.16298 seconds with 10 queries
[Output: 141.94 Kb. compressed to 120.26 Kb. by saving 21.68 Kb. (15.28%)]