www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI Power Enhancements

TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 10th, 2010, 12:10   #1
TDIMeister
Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast
Moderator at Large
 
TDIMeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Canada
TDI(s): TDI
Default "Cold-air intakes" and "high-flow air filter" FAQ

By popular demand, here's an FAQ thread for USEFUL information on cold-air intakes and high-flow air filters. Useless posts will be removed.

Go nuts.

Edit: know what would be cool? Maybe someone can make a nifty, tastefully funny but small and useful button picture that links to this thread for future threads discussing this subject. This would be a useful thing to do for other FAQs as well. For your convenience and a start, you can copy and paste this hyperlinked thing to offending threads:

Read the "Cold-air intakes" and "high-flow air filter" FAQ!
__________________

TDIMeister's German-imported 1998 Audi A4 Avant TDI quattro

Are you receiving unwelcome sales solicitations or inappropriate, harassing messages in your PM? You can report them by pressing the image on the top right of the message in a similar way as reporting inappropriate posts.

Last edited by TDIMeister; August 10th, 2010 at 13:44.
TDIMeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2010, 12:47   #2
scurvy
Good Ol' Boy
 
scurvy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago IL USA
TDI(s): 2006 Golf
Fuel Economy:
Default

Reposted from here by request of TDIMeister.

In response to the statement, 'because they [K&N filters] are a proven way to make power on nearly every other car.'

No they aren't.

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1768602
No gain in HP or torque (tiny bit more torque with stock system)

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/archive.../t-378208.html
'The Porsche Club of America dyno-tested K&N filters in a variety of new Porsches in 2001 and found no power increase whatsoever.'

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...postcount=3562
'On my old 1999 Mille I did a dyno test with full EGA on the stock filter, EVO, K&N, a Foam one I made and none at all. The dyno graphs all directly overlaid one another as did the mixture trace lines.'

http://www.gadgetonline.com/Dyno.htm
'
It looks like TRD is right about this one, or close anyway. They told me that they have seen a slight reduction in power, to no improvement with the installation of the K&N FIPK.'

http://tl.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=601091
'The reality is 4.6 RWHP and ZERO gain in torque is PEAK number. The 4.6 additional horsepower did not increase the entire length of the curve...only a small peak at the high rpm.
...
Notice the red and blue line pulls are identical to each other with the difference of 4.6 RWHP [at one point, approximately 5400 RPM]. This peak number would not be felt on the street or shown in the 1/4 mile.
...

Then you have to consider how the K&N works in the first place. It allows more air to travel through it so no matter how many ways you look at it, the K&N filters less particles. It has been proven that an engine equipped with a K&N filter will show more silicate in it's oil than an engine with a "paper" element. Don't believe me? Analyze you own oil before and after a K&N install. I did.'

http://webspace.webring.com/people/m...nisign/kn.html
'
I know of at least one Si/SiR owner who dynoed their car before and after installing a K&N drop-in like yours and mine, and saw horsepower losses.'

I could go on, but the claim of these oiled MAF-ruining bugcatchers making power 'on nearly every other car' doesn't hold water. Even if you don't believe the HP gains, the lack of filtration is my biggest concern. Price out a replacement MAF & turbo for S&G, or a valve job.
__________________
If you post a question, post your solution!
mk4 front wheel bearing | scurvy winter front | VCDS in Chicago, IL USA
You are entitled to your opinions but not your own facts.
scurvy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2010, 15:50   #3
n1das
TDIClub Enthusiast
Veteran Member
 
n1das's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Nashua, NH, USA
Fuel Economy: Who cares? It's a DIESEL! Great fuel economy comes as a bonus!
Exclamation

K&N filter media, notice the sunlight passing thru the filter!


dieseldorf's K&N "lie detector" test:

From what I can tell from the dyno plots:
- 1st run: Baseline with NO FILTER installed. EMPTY airbox!
- 2nd run: Stock OEM paper air filter.
- 3rd run: K&N air filter.

ZERO performance improvement observed with K&N compared stock OEM paper filter or even NO FILTER at all! We've seen this all the time in the numberous K&N threads..."It (K&N) just HAS to be better!" OK, based on what?

As I've said in other K&N filter threads:

K&N filter = MAF eater + engine sander + ZERO performance benefits = BAD!

Stick to using only OEM filters:


I use the cold climate version OEM filter, shown in the above pic. Here is an end-shot view:


I use the cold climate version year round in my 02 Golf because I removed the snowscreen in the intake snorkel due to it regularly getting clogged with bugs and other debris.

Cold Climate version part number: 1J0 129 620 A
Standard version filter part number: 1J0 129 620

Note the "A" on the end of the part number is for the cold climate version.
__________________
David Sterrett, N1DAS
2014 BMW (F10) 535d XDRIVE M-Sport, 255hp & 413 lb-ft of AWD stomp 'n go fun!
2012 BMW (E70) X5 XDRIVE35d, 265hp & 425 lb-ft of AWD stomp 'n go fun!
Member SSBMWO

Why DIESEL is better:
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions.html
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/efficiency.html
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/performance.html
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions2014.html
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions2016.html

Last edited by n1das; August 10th, 2010 at 16:50. Reason: D'Oh!
n1das is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2010, 16:02   #4
dieseldorf
top post dawg
 
dieseldorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: MA
Default

These products are consumed by those praying for miracles. Just say no, and save your pennies for something with a tangible payback!

dieseldorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2010, 21:21   #5
Drivbiwire
Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Boise, Idaho
Fuel Economy: Who cares, it's a diesel!
Default



















__________________
Specializing in Injectors for CRI, CR, PD, VE, IDI VW, Audi, MB, SEAT and Skoda Diesel engines.
Offical Importer, Distributor and Installer for Fratelli Bosio, S.R.L. North America
Quotes and Pricing for TDI Injectors

Last edited by Drivbiwire; August 11th, 2010 at 21:36.
Drivbiwire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2010, 21:24   #6
Drivbiwire
Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Boise, Idaho
Fuel Economy: Who cares, it's a diesel!
Default







That's the dirt let thru after just 501 miles of driving on a NEW FACTORY OILED K&N
__________________
Specializing in Injectors for CRI, CR, PD, VE, IDI VW, Audi, MB, SEAT and Skoda Diesel engines.
Offical Importer, Distributor and Installer for Fratelli Bosio, S.R.L. North America
Quotes and Pricing for TDI Injectors
Drivbiwire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2010, 21:46   #7
Drivbiwire
Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Boise, Idaho
Fuel Economy: Who cares, it's a diesel!
Default Best bang for the buck



Plus





Or if you have a Mercedes it's already built into the MAF sensor (a "Delta-P" or Differential pressure sensor monitored by the ECU)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stock, E320 CDI Data log of pressure accross OEM Mann-Hummel filter
Speed: 80 mph
Total miles on air filter: 34,000
Ambient temperature: 74F/23C
Altitude Sea Level
Atmospheric pressure: 1004 hpa (Below standard of 1013)
Boost pressure (psi) 6.382 steady
Induction temperature post turbo (after intercooler) 39C/103F
Pressure drop accross the air filter with the above condtions: 3hpa or 1" WC!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Full Throttle run different day, high elevation:
RPM: 2707
Intake Air pressure: 861 hPa
Boost Pressure: 2192 hPa/31.79psi
Charge Pressure Positioner: 52.6%
Boost Air Temperature: 41.4C
Outside Air Temp: 27.7C
Atmospheric Pressure (absolute): 903 hPa
Barometric Pressure: 1019 hPa
Pressure Altitude: 3151.7 Feet Above Sea Level
Density Altitude: 5383 Feet above Seal Level

Total Pressure drop at full boost = 42 hPa/16.8" WC/.609psi/1.24"hg

General rule of thumb:

Replace the filter when:
-25-30" of H2o restriction
-4 years
-100,000 miles
-Whichever occurs first.

If you have a Snow Screen installed, clean it every 10K by removing ONLY the base retaining bolts, NEVER EVER open a filter to take
a Look, if you want to inspect the filter, it can be viewed on both sides when removing the UNOPENED BOX from the car.

-Remove the two 10mm bolts DO NOT REMOVE THE TWO philips screws securiung the top of the box to the lower portion!!!
-On the MAF sensor, remove the two philip screws holding the MAF sensor to the box.
-Once the MAF is removed you can inspect the upper and lower sides of the filter. The filter MUST look dirty, as long as there are no tears in the pleats, press on and don't mess with it.

To clean the screen just just some shop air and blow out the debris. The more you stop in the screen the longer the life of your air filter!
Thanks to Compu85 for these pictures...Exactly the way it should be inspected and cleaned.






A Blocked screen may indicate approx 10-15" H2O, so be prepaired to clean the screen rather than replace the filter. If you see 25-30" suddenly you may have had water or snow ingestion, inspect the filter and determine a course of action. Either way start with inspecting your snow screen.
__________________
Specializing in Injectors for CRI, CR, PD, VE, IDI VW, Audi, MB, SEAT and Skoda Diesel engines.
Offical Importer, Distributor and Installer for Fratelli Bosio, S.R.L. North America
Quotes and Pricing for TDI Injectors

Last edited by Drivbiwire; September 22nd, 2010 at 20:59.
Drivbiwire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 03:05   #8
Rub87
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Belgium
Default

so please point me to a good cone filter as I have no room for stock airbox in my car..

I shall post some pics from Apexi filter too =)





I now run an airbox from a mitsubischi carisma turbodiesel, it has a paper filter but it's quite restrictive, I measured over .1bar of pressure drop at high rpm, + I think it lets some very fine dust true as the inside of the pipe from airbox to compressor is always dusty, altough the dust if fine enough to not damage the impeller directly ..
__________________
'99 Black Ibiza GT90: 2260v, ARL bottomend, rosten rods 81mm slugs, 17:1 CR, 35/38mm exh/in valves, 02M, 305mm discs with Brembo calipers, OZ Superturismo 16"x7.5J, .............
Dyno'd area, Old VNT20 setup dyno'd 192whp
Rub87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 04:57   #9
Bob_Fout
Oil Wanker
 
Bob_Fout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Indiana
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rub87 View Post
so please point me to a good cone filter as I have no room for stock airbox in my car..

I shall post some pics from Apexi filter too =)





I now run an airbox from a mitsubischi carisma turbodiesel, it has a paper filter but it's quite restrictive, I measured over .1bar of pressure drop at high rpm, + I think it lets some very fine dust true as the inside of the pipe from airbox to compressor is always dusty, altough the dust if fine enough to not damage the impeller directly ..
There are several synthetic media cone filters from Amsoil, AEM and AFE.
__________________
2003 Jetta TDI (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Photos | Mods | CJ-4 Oils | Oil Analysis | Stage II Cam
Bob_Fout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22nd, 2010, 05:27   #10
ChippedNotBroken
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Pocono\'s, NYC
Fuel Economy: 50,45
Default

I believe the air restriction on our cars is the exhaust, it would be surprising to hear that increasing the air intake capability would result in a material increase in performance. That said, I don't see the harm in lowering air intake resistance so long as filtration is not impaired. I read somewhere here on the forum about moving the battery to the trunk in order to make room for an air filter meeting that description.

For those running much larger turbos and chipped to run up to 6000 RPM I could see where the stock intake might start to become a limitation.
__________________
1999.5 Green Jetta MrChill'd and Wild Bill'd then it got the Whitbread build, Bleached 'n Nick'd and idi'd, RC'd, RyanP'd then fine'ly Jasonified.
Youtube video of smoke
Youtube video of vacuum restriction
Quote:
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. TJ
ChippedNotBroken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22nd, 2010, 06:36   #11
T_D_I_POWER
Veteran Member
 
T_D_I_POWER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Savannah. GA. USA - Toronto. ON. CANADA
Default

I use Hengst filters -Air/Fuel/Oil- for both of our Passats, and my other cars. This one is for the 04 TDI.







Here are the actual dimensions:
L X W X H = 9.500 X 7.875 X 1.875
A = 74.813 in2
V = 140.273 in3
No. of pleats: 87
L (calculated)= 163.125 in = 13.594 ft.
As (calculated)= 1284.609 in2 = 8.91 ft2

VS

Direct drop in K&N flat panel filter P/N 33-2125



Overall dimensions taken from the website:
L X W X H: 9.875 X 8.25 X 0.75
Actual (-.75/side for sealing): 8.375 X 6.75 X 0.75
A = 56.531 in2
V = 42.398 in3
No. of pleats:29 (from website)
L (calculated)= 21.75 in = 1.813 ft
As (calculated)= 179.438 in2= 1.246 ft2

As you can see from the calculations above, the OEM Hengst has greater filter media area, volume, and no. of pleats over the K&N. The greater the surface area of a given air filter, the better an engine will breathe and perform.
__________________
//TDI POWER
2004 B5.5S

1st TO USE Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 IN THE CLUB http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...56&postcount=9
1st TO PREFILL OFH/OFI INSTL W/ OIL IN THE CLUB http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...02&postcount=5
1st TO PREFIL FF W/ DIESEL FUEL IN THE CLUB http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=14


Last edited by T_D_I_POWER; August 22nd, 2010 at 11:04.
T_D_I_POWER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23rd, 2010, 05:45   #12
Drivbiwire
Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Boise, Idaho
Fuel Economy: Who cares, it's a diesel!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChippedNotBroken View Post
I believe the air restriction on our cars is the exhaust, it would be surprising to hear that increasing the air intake capability would result in a material increase in performance. That said, I don't see the harm in lowering air intake resistance so long as filtration is not impaired. I read somewhere here on the forum about moving the battery to the trunk in order to make room for an air filter meeting that description.

For those running much larger turbos and chipped to run up to 6000 RPM I could see where the stock intake might start to become a limitation.
Thats the point of using a manometer in my post above, there is NO restriction with the OEM filters even with performace tunes.

The OEM filter for a TDI has MORE flow capability (read larger area) than the filter on the Twin Turbo Audi S6 that can push north of 350hp and turn 8000 rpm.

The TDI already has a filter that is overkill in terms of flow, no amount of modifications can exceed its ability to flow unless you start adding cylinders to the motor, even then it can meet the demands of a V6-V8 turbo charged engine.

Also FWIW, the VW TDI filter has more area than my I6 and V6 CDI/Bluetec diesels pushing 220hp in stock form. I have the restriction data of those filters and at max power the total restriction at the turbo inlet at Maximum boost and full load is 3hPa!
__________________
Specializing in Injectors for CRI, CR, PD, VE, IDI VW, Audi, MB, SEAT and Skoda Diesel engines.
Offical Importer, Distributor and Installer for Fratelli Bosio, S.R.L. North America
Quotes and Pricing for TDI Injectors
Drivbiwire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23rd, 2010, 13:02   #13
FlashT
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: LA
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drivbiwire
Thats the point of using a manometer in my post above, there is NO restriction with the OEM filters even with performace tunes.

The OEM filter for a TDI has MORE flow capability (read larger area) than the filter on the Twin Turbo Audi S6 that can push north of 350hp and turn 8000 rpm.
<snip>
All of that is very interesting but I think there is an easier way to prove to everyone what works and what doesn't: Get a VCDS unit or OBD-II scanner, and take some mass airflow readings with the stock filter, K&N filter, and finally the cold air intakes(any brand). Intake air temp. should be measured as well.

By testing these filters and intakes in this manner, anyone and everyone can see whether or not these products work on their own car. I think
that some people continue to believe in this nonsense simply because it is nice to get something for nothing.

But in defense of cold air intakes, if one of these units really did increase the flow of cooler air to the engine, then someone who had smoke with, say, T4's might be able to use those same injectors with little or no smoke.
__________________
Thinking of lowering? Read This first.
FlashT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 26th, 2010, 14:02   #14
Drivbiwire
Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Boise, Idaho
Fuel Economy: Who cares, it's a diesel!
Default

All TDI's already have a "Cold Air Filter"....whats the point?

Another aspect that is overlooked is the OEM intake point is drawn from a region of high pressure, if you defeat this you just lost 3-5 hPa of air pressure driving down the road.

Most after market filters are hardly "Cold Air Filters" in fact the majority suck in hot engine air from inside the engine compartment. They try to disguise the poor designs with vertical blocks and try to draw air from around a headlights but you are still drawing in from a lower pressure region of air.

Using a manometer inside the air box is the best way to monitor restriction. sure you could place a port at the turbo inlet but the difference in pressure would be minimal if any at all since they are both being measured in the same duct with the same pressure.

MAF readings will not tell you anything, MAF readings are not limited by the filter but by what is being commanded by the ECU. The MAF sensor only reads what the ECU is telling the turbo to pump into the engine...Don't confuse naturally aspirated concepts with forced induction...you will confuse yourself and the data that you are trying to interpret.

Again this takes us back to a pressure that is not dependent on any engine component, but is shows the net affect of the filtration and induction system, system being the operative word.

The bottom line is that a filtration systme is measured on two fronts:

-Whats the total pressure drop of the system as measured at the turbo inlet.
-Does the filtration system provide 10-15 micron filtration with 98% efficiency and still permit 60,000 miles between changes without any meaningful increase in restriction at the end of its service life?
__________________
Specializing in Injectors for CRI, CR, PD, VE, IDI VW, Audi, MB, SEAT and Skoda Diesel engines.
Offical Importer, Distributor and Installer for Fratelli Bosio, S.R.L. North America
Quotes and Pricing for TDI Injectors
Drivbiwire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 26th, 2010, 15:25   #15
FlashT
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: LA
Post

I understand what you are saying. I completely agree with you about filtration efficiency as well. There simply can't be any compromise. But is the pressure drop in the system pre-turbo the only definitive measurement that we can use to ascertain whether or not these aftermarket intakes actually work? In my opinion, the most important aspect to the induction system(pre-turbo) is the intake air temperature (as far as performance is concerned). And in this area, no intake system out there is as effective as the stock intake. It is the only intake I have ever seen that draws in air outside of the engine bay.

Quote:
Again this takes us back to a pressure that is not dependent on any engine component, but is shows the net affect of the filtration and induction system, system being the operative word.
That is exactly what makes K&N, Carbonio, aFe, Spectre, etc. complete rubbish. And it makes me think about the turbocharger pressurizing the incoming air to 15 psi, at which point, it heats up. Then the efficiency of the intercooler is really what matters at that point.

So, in conclusion, it basically comes down to filtration efficiency with minimal restrictions coupled with a cool, positive-pressure air source that constitutes a good intake, right?
__________________
Thinking of lowering? Read This first.
FlashT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:52.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.46495 seconds with 10 queries
[Output: 148.92 Kb. compressed to 126.54 Kb. by saving 22.38 Kb. (15.03%)]