www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI Power Enhancements

TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 12th, 2017, 11:04   #1
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: PA Dutch Country
Default 764 Nozzles; Power Plus or DLC?

From what I can glean from trolling the net, the big difference between the 2 types of the 764 nozzles is that the PP has 7 holes while the "new and improved" DLC764 has 5 openings. Slightly increased overall flow (87%>103%) on the PP's, but to my surprise I find that DBW lists both as being DLC coated. The PP's are ~ $50 cheaper.
Is there a consensus as to whether there is any significant advantage
to a 7vs5 hole orifice?

With DBW's option of increased flow rates with spring setup, ie. a DLC764 could be bumped up to the same rate as the PP(DLC)764.

I'm also considering the 10% plus stage 1 injection mod as well,
according to Pete it would improve lower down spooling & torque.
I'm not looking for the ultimate high rpm horsepower, more low down grunt for towing a small tear drop camper (~1200#) around the country next year. With an 11mm pump my goal is on the order of 160-170bhp/300'#s.

I'll be picking up a 17/22 turbo this weekend, and an SBC2 End clutch. The combo should be more than capable of dealing with the bigger nozzles.


Thoughts, input, and experience on the 2 types greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
R*2
__________________
RC Stage 2: 11mm pump & .216 nozzles: Koni Reds with HD Springs, ~1.5"lift: XXIO Racing Rims, 215/55ZR16" General Max AS03's, 10mm/20mm spacers, 35# @: Ventectomy: Atlas skid plate: 02J, SMF, .657 5th, Peloquin LSD: TT Short Shifter: Bosal Hitch: VW OEM racks: Aspherical Mirrors:
Rrusse11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2017, 19:48   #2
Seatman
Veteran Member
 
Seatman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Scotland
Fuel Economy: No idea
Default

Don't think either is really worth it if you're fitting that turbo unless you're going with the 11mm pump too.

Personally I had the PP764's, found the extra torque alone was excellent even without a tune. Most I could get out of them with bigger turbo and mapping was about 165-170 at the crank.

But yeh, definite boost in oomph
Seatman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2017, 20:26   #3
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: PA Dutch Country
Default

Seatman,
Got the pump already, check my signature for a list of mods.
The torque/low end power is what I'm after, thanks for the input!
Cheers,
R*2
__________________
RC Stage 2: 11mm pump & .216 nozzles: Koni Reds with HD Springs, ~1.5"lift: XXIO Racing Rims, 215/55ZR16" General Max AS03's, 10mm/20mm spacers, 35# @: Ventectomy: Atlas skid plate: 02J, SMF, .657 5th, Peloquin LSD: TT Short Shifter: Bosal Hitch: VW OEM racks: Aspherical Mirrors:
Rrusse11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2017, 05:45   #4
bobbiemartin
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Default

On my Golf, I have DLC764, Stage 2 flow with modified pilot injection. You can see the mods in the link. I'm happy with them. It has pretty good low end and a very strong mid range.

I corresponded with my tuner and DBW for recommendations on the best nozzle for my application. Once we settled on the nozzles, the tune was written for the nozzles and other modifications. That is probably the best way to sort out what nozzle to use. If you don't retune after making the turbo swap, nozzles, etc you really won't get the most benefit out of what you have.
__________________
Bobbie Martin Jacksonville, FL

bobbiemartin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2017, 06:23   #5
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: PA Dutch Country
Default

Bobbie,

Thank you sir for the input! Great work on your car, very impressive. So a VNT17 ehh, that was where I was headed, but when the deal for the combo 17/22 & the SBC popped up, I couldn't resist. My understanding of the 17/22 is that it delivers better low end spooling that the VNT17. Just what I'm after for my application.

I want to maximise the power band of the diesel, low end grunt/torque. My take is most modders seek to replicate the high rev/peak power aspects of gas engines. Realistically they might be better off playing around with the 1.8T motor.

With the increase in pilot injection, and I'm thinking with the finer atomisation of the 7 hole PP injectors, these tweaks should also be giving a boost where a diesel motor is at its best. I doubt if I'll be needing a StageII increase.

I'll be using Jeff of RC for tuning, Peter of IDparts speaks highly of
an RC3+, a turbo specific tune. Not looking to max out the car,
figuring that if I run a dialed back setup, I should be good for long term reliability/durability.

Thanks, good to hear your happy with 764s.

Cheers,
R*2
__________________
RC Stage 2: 11mm pump & .216 nozzles: Koni Reds with HD Springs, ~1.5"lift: XXIO Racing Rims, 215/55ZR16" General Max AS03's, 10mm/20mm spacers, 35# @: Ventectomy: Atlas skid plate: 02J, SMF, .657 5th, Peloquin LSD: TT Short Shifter: Bosal Hitch: VW OEM racks: Aspherical Mirrors:
Rrusse11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2017, 07:36   #6
Enabled
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Houston, TX
Default

The VNT17 spools faster than a 17/22, 17/22 has more volume and a little higher capacity at high end...
__________________
-2003 Jetta TDI GLS Manual (Daily beater. Mods: GLI Springs/Koni Shocks, SBC II Daily, .681 5th, VNT17 & PP520, Self Tuned) 47mpg at 80mph
-BMW 328is Manual (heavily modded 220whp, track toy)
-BMW Z3 Roadster (Fun in the sun car)
-BMW Z3 M Coupe (1 of 36)
Enabled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2017, 11:02   #7
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: PA Dutch Country
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enabled View Post
The VNT17 spools faster than a 17/22, 17/22 has more volume and a little higher capacity at high end...
So where does the volume start to kick in then? Can more fuel be utilised sooner?

Thanks!
R*2
__________________
RC Stage 2: 11mm pump & .216 nozzles: Koni Reds with HD Springs, ~1.5"lift: XXIO Racing Rims, 215/55ZR16" General Max AS03's, 10mm/20mm spacers, 35# @: Ventectomy: Atlas skid plate: 02J, SMF, .657 5th, Peloquin LSD: TT Short Shifter: Bosal Hitch: VW OEM racks: Aspherical Mirrors:
Rrusse11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2017, 11:23   #8
Enabled
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Houston, TX
Default

The difference isn't huge between the 2 turbos. But a lot of the VNT17/22 benefits are at high rpm. (I don't think it's worth the extra $400-500 price, but that's an opinion)

Either way, high torque (read high cylinder pressures) puts huge stress on head and head gasket. So you don't want to aim only for high torque low hp, unless you've strengthened a lot of it. Even then, increasing rpm will be safer for utilizing the power.
__________________
-2003 Jetta TDI GLS Manual (Daily beater. Mods: GLI Springs/Koni Shocks, SBC II Daily, .681 5th, VNT17 & PP520, Self Tuned) 47mpg at 80mph
-BMW 328is Manual (heavily modded 220whp, track toy)
-BMW Z3 Roadster (Fun in the sun car)
-BMW Z3 M Coupe (1 of 36)
Enabled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2017, 11:47   #9
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: PA Dutch Country
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enabled View Post
The difference isn't huge between the 2 turbos. But a lot of the VNT17/22 benefits are at high rpm. (I don't think it's worth the extra $400-500 price, but that's an opinion)

Either way, high torque (read high cylinder pressures) puts huge stress on head and head gasket. So you don't want to aim only for high torque low hp, unless you've strengthened a lot of it. Even then, increasing rpm will be safer for utilizing the power.
Ahhh, just the kind of info this neophyte appreciates!
Cheers!
__________________
RC Stage 2: 11mm pump & .216 nozzles: Koni Reds with HD Springs, ~1.5"lift: XXIO Racing Rims, 215/55ZR16" General Max AS03's, 10mm/20mm spacers, 35# @: Ventectomy: Atlas skid plate: 02J, SMF, .657 5th, Peloquin LSD: TT Short Shifter: Bosal Hitch: VW OEM racks: Aspherical Mirrors:
Rrusse11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2017, 17:47   #10
bobbiemartin
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Default

If it's low end torque you are after, you might consider keeping the VNT15. Look up some post by Peter (IndigoBlueWagon). He really likes the VNT15 for road cars. You won't get the top end HP, but it might be better for your application.
__________________
Bobbie Martin Jacksonville, FL

bobbiemartin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2017, 18:17   #11
Seatman
Veteran Member
 
Seatman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Scotland
Fuel Economy: No idea
Default

There's also the GT1749VA as found on our PD130 over here, same turbine bigger compressor. It can handle a bit more boost but still spools fast.
Seatman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2017, 18:47   #12
Nevada_TDI
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Reno, sort of...
Default

R*2, I'm with enabled on this one. The 17/22 is in a vnt-20 cold side, which tells us you can expect your full spool to be approximately 300 RPM higher than you "want."
Check the link to this page, and look at the chart on the bottom of the page:
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.u...onversion.html
But according to the chart, all may not be lost here; you are not running a 26PSI tune, you will be running a 20-ish PSI tune I believe with a Stage 3+ so you don't really need 26 PSI; with the right nozzles and tune you should have lots of low-end grunt.
__________________
_______________
2001 Jetta GL TDI, 35/15% Tint, Ventectomy, Catectomy, EGR-ectomy, Stage 4 TDTuning, PP764's, Stealth 17/56 Garrett, VCDS Hex+CAN, South Bend Daily Driver 2 Clutch, DG Short Shifter, Previous Diesel: 1983 Rabbit Diesel
Nevada_TDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2017, 19:30   #13
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: PA Dutch Country
Default

Nevada,

Yep, seen the chart. I know the current VNT15 isn't handling the nozzles I got. Took me a while to realise that the actuator was causing
a LOT of boost spiking. I think they must set the auto tranny turbo differently. It didn't hit the stop until 26"Hg on my Harbor Freight
"brake bleeder". Now starting to move the vanes at 3", hits the stop at 17". It was throwing oil. I'm regarding the turbo as compromised.

Guessing here that a 17/22 set around 22-24# max should give me plenty of power for what I'm after. Also guessing that it'll max out the current nozzles. 764's set conservatively and the above boost limit I'm hoping should give durability/longevity with plenty of grunt. Not looking for a race car. Without a load, car's not bad as is.
But my feeling is trying to do a couple month trip with a camper would be questionably reliable.

Only have a couple years experience running TDI's, and never been a motorhead, so it's a steep learning curve here. Now if you want to talk about the finer points of old meter boats, or powdering claybirds, got a lot more experience. {:o)

Thanks all! Just the kind of experiential input I need.
R*2
i

__________________
RC Stage 2: 11mm pump & .216 nozzles: Koni Reds with HD Springs, ~1.5"lift: XXIO Racing Rims, 215/55ZR16" General Max AS03's, 10mm/20mm spacers, 35# @: Ventectomy: Atlas skid plate: 02J, SMF, .657 5th, Peloquin LSD: TT Short Shifter: Bosal Hitch: VW OEM racks: Aspherical Mirrors:

Last edited by Rrusse11; September 13th, 2017 at 19:33.
Rrusse11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2017, 08:35   #14
Nevada_TDI
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Reno, sort of...
Default

Due to the fact that turbo moves more pounds of air at the same pressure as a vnt-17, you should not have to worry about EGT problems even when towing. Yes, we want bigger turbos that make more boost, but PSI for PSI, (pound for pound so-to-speak) the bigger turbos should be able to run minimal boost at freeway speeds while still having plenty of air moving at the same time.
__________________
_______________
2001 Jetta GL TDI, 35/15% Tint, Ventectomy, Catectomy, EGR-ectomy, Stage 4 TDTuning, PP764's, Stealth 17/56 Garrett, VCDS Hex+CAN, South Bend Daily Driver 2 Clutch, DG Short Shifter, Previous Diesel: 1983 Rabbit Diesel
Nevada_TDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2017, 08:44   #15
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: PA Dutch Country
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada_TDI View Post
Due to the fact that turbo moves more pounds of air at the same pressure as a vnt-17, you should not have to worry about EGT problems even when towing. Yes, we want bigger turbos that make more boost, but PSI for PSI, (pound for pound so-to-speak) the bigger turbos should be able to run minimal boost at freeway speeds while still having plenty of air moving at the same time.
Interestingly on the same subject of EGTs, my query to DBW on the benefits of increased pilot (stage 1) injection, he spoke of improved
combustion that also would lower said temperatures. Win win!

Currently cleaning my spare intake in preperation for turbo install.
Got a SS braided oil line, a turbo inlet adapter from IDparts.
Don't know if I'll need an adapter for the intercooler connection
yet. I'm planning on just using my stock SMIC piping if possible.
__________________
RC Stage 2: 11mm pump & .216 nozzles: Koni Reds with HD Springs, ~1.5"lift: XXIO Racing Rims, 215/55ZR16" General Max AS03's, 10mm/20mm spacers, 35# @: Ventectomy: Atlas skid plate: 02J, SMF, .657 5th, Peloquin LSD: TT Short Shifter: Bosal Hitch: VW OEM racks: Aspherical Mirrors:
Rrusse11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Installed DLC 764's and set timing..WOW! USMCShooter VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 25 May 9th, 2017 18:52
F/S Stage II Power Plus 764 Nozzles Set By DBW $400 Buf NY Boostingperformance Private TDI Items for Sale/Wanted 10 December 24th, 2013 06:57
bosio power plus 764 nozzles for sale gula47 Private TDI Items for Sale/Wanted 2 May 12th, 2013 22:43
New T4 Nozzles with DLC Coatings Drivbiwire Vendor & GroupBuy items for sale 17 October 15th, 2010 11:09


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.15260 seconds with 13 queries
[Output: 133.87 Kb. compressed to 112.60 Kb. by saving 21.28 Kb. (15.89%)]