"Volkswagen’s Tennessee plant sets new standard for low wages"

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dubStrom

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Plenty of jobs here... never seen a newspaper in my lifetime that did not have pages of jobs inside. And if you are not qualified, GET qualified. People need to be a little proactive with their careers, not just loaf around and get drunk, smoke weed, and protest things. Buncha damned hippies, LOL!!!! :p

And if you are NOT educated or trained, then you get those $12/hr jobs. You don't sit on your ass and complain about it, because then those jobs WILL go somewhere else. Problem is, if the Fed gov't is willing to give about 50% of the populace money from the other 50%, then why bother? I could quit my job today, and still get food and health care. This system does not reward hard work anymore. It rewards laziness.

Much of my reaction right now is based off of a family member, who is expecting his FOURTH child, gets WIC/foodstamps, has had one house foreclosed on, had a car repo'd, and just somehow managed to purchase another house. He has a poor paying job, so all their healthcare expenses are on taxpayers... and he makes so little he not only pays NO income tax at the end of the year, he actually gets money BACK because his fat wife keeps shooting the baby-cannon.
Living at the bottom, attempting to maintain eligibility for foodstamps is neither easy, nor a goal. Furthermore, it is cheaper to give someone a pittance to allow them to buy some food, then to pay the cost of crime and other consequences of severe poverty. Some do abuse the system, true, But it is getting harder and harder.

The exception is the WIC/foodstamps situation you describe. On most other points, I am pretty easy going, but as far as I am concerned, if youneed food stamps and WIC to feed a child, part of the program should be compulsory norplant implantation. NO exceptions. Extreme? I don't see it that way. It would help prevent the abuse of the system. I am sorry, but child bearing should not be considered a right. It is a responsibility, and violating that responsibility is just child (and society) abuse. Do it once, your done. Norplant until you go off foodstamps/WIC, and maybe permanently if you do it again. Baby cannon. That's funny, but not!
 
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dubStrom

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more makes much more

My take on it is that for many years autoworkers were so clearly making so much more money than folks who sweated out a degree and got job in the field (such as I) were a little upset at that. I mean here we have a guy making 60-80k a year doing assembly work. It took me almost 12 years to break 10 bucks an hour even with a college degree, graduating with top honors etc. Before the recession hit, I was doing ok, but since then we've taken a 12% cut. I hope not to take any more hits, but of course we shall see. At least I am not down to the amount per hour they are paying the Passat workers.
Whether or not I am "upset" that someone managed to make $20 bucks an hour sweeping the floor is actually not important, because as we have seen, globalization of the economy forces labor costs to flatten out over time (or the business fails).

And, as far as under taxing superwealthy is concerned, WHEN will the death nail finally be placed in the myth that tax breaks for the wealthy results in job creation? How long have these rates been this way?, How many jobs have been shed?

One thing to remember is that it is MUCH easier to double your investment when your investment is a million dollars, than if your investment is $1000. That is why a progressive tax system is fair. One must pay for harvesting large sums from our economy (at least it is not unreasonable). After all, it is the rest of us that ARE the economy that is being fleeced. I'd simply call that an appropriate pay to play policy. Big money has ENORMOUS advantage over modest income folks in generating profit (by percent of investment), and it is unfair to the rest of us that they not pay for the privilege of "playing in the sandbox". To be handed a lower tax rate on top of that advantage is sheer stupidity. More money just has a bigger advantage: the advantage in payoff (% of investment) generally gets bigger as the amount invested grows. So, a progressive tax system is fair. It is amazing that this concept can be so hard to convey. The idea of a "flat tax" seems fair to the simple minded.

Back on topic:
I am glad that VW is paying what appears to be a reasonable pay rate at the new plant. I want the plant to survive (to add an Amarok line!). Actually, $12 per hour does not reflect the cost of health care for VW, which is truly the problem. The compensation is much better than in most other countries. Not bad at all.
 
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manual_tranny

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The exception is the WIC/foodstamps situation you describe. On most other points, I am pretty easy going, but as far as I am concerned, if youneed food stamps and WIC to feed a child, part of the program should be compulsory norplant implantation. NO exceptions. Extreme? I don't see it that way. It would help prevent the abuse of the system. I am sorry, but child bearing should not be considered a right. It is a responsibility, and violating that responsibility is just child (and society) abuse. Do it once, your done. Norplant until you go off foodstamps/WIC, and maybe permanently if you do it again. Baby cannon. That's funny, but not!
So, the answer to too much government intervention/handouts is more government control? :eek: I'm sorry, but even though I agree with you (I would LOVE to stop irresponsible folks from breeding!).. I know deep down that philosophically, we are BOTH fundamentally mistaken.

Oilhammer, I'm loving your posts, keep them coming! :)
 

bhtooefr

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So, the trick is, how do you deal with the people that don't want to work?

Keep giving them welfare, which they don't spend on improving themselves?

Stop giving them welfare, and then they resort to crime to stay alive? Then, you end up imprisoning them, at which point you might as well just give them welfare.

Revoke their citizenship, and deport them?

Worse?

Really, there is no good answer, there. (I do think that welfare should be contingent on not having children, though - if you get pregnant while on welfare, or get someone pregnant, and that child is carried to term, your benefits are reduced or eliminated. Alternately, make the benefits require sterilization, although that's another nasty issue.)

Also, there is a legitimate grievance with the haves that the have nots are protesting, and it's the unemployed that are able to protest. There are quite a few people that fall in the category of the have nots, that DO have jobs, and don't have time to do anything but work for the corporate machine.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
So, the trick is, how do you deal with the people that don't want to work?

.
The solution there is also in the Constitution, the 2nd Amendment. People want to take the things I work for, they'll taste lead. :) Because eventually, the people that don't want to work, and don't get handouts, are going to become thieves. Well, they already are, just in a different way.
 

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Back on topic:
I am glad that VW is paying what appears to be a reasonable pay rate at the new plant. I want the plant to survive (to add an Amarok line!). Actually, $12 per hour does not reflect the cost of health care for VW, which is truly the problem. The compensation is much better than in most other countries. Not bad at all.
IIRC, the $12 rate was for the tem pworkers that have no benefits. The $15 was for VW employees that now have benefits. Typically, the benefits are worth about 50% of your salary. So you can now say that the VW employees are making an equivalent of $22 per hour.

Oilhammer, I'm glad I didn't have a mouth full of coffee when I read "baby cannon"
 

kjclow

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So, the trick is, how do you deal with the people that don't want to work?

Keep giving them welfare, which they don't spend on improving themselves?

Stop giving them welfare, and then they resort to crime to stay alive? Then, you end up imprisoning them, at which point you might as well just give them welfare.

Revoke their citizenship, and deport them?

Worse?

Really, there is no good answer, there. (I do think that welfare should be contingent on not having children, though - if you get pregnant while on welfare, or get someone pregnant, and that child is carried to term, your benefits are reduced or eliminated. Alternately, make the benefits require sterilization, although that's another nasty issue.)

Also, there is a legitimate grievance with the haves that the have nots are protesting, and it's the unemployed that are able to protest. There are quite a few people that fall in the category of the have nots, that DO have jobs, and don't have time to do anything but work for the corporate machine.
When I lived in Wisconsin, they tried to implement a training program tied to welfare. If you collected welfare, you had to learn a trade. I think they even tried to limit welfare to three years. ACLU was all over that one so I don't know if it survived or not.

I understand foodstamps if you are working and not making enough money to keep food on the table. I just have a hardtime with the whole welfare/handouts for the non-working, non-trying people.

I also want to jump up and down screaming, "WHERE"S MY SHARE?" for not having to take a handout or turn my house over to foreclosure. I've been paying mortgages and car payments for about 30 years. Maybe if I hadn't moved so many times, my house would be almost payed for and I could throw a lot more money into the black pit of the stock market. I could then sit back and wonder how I'm going to make ends meet on social security and see what the governement will put in MY outstretched hand.
 
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dubStrom

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IIRC, the $12 rate was for the tem pworkers that have no benefits. The $15 was for VW employees that now have benefits. Typically, the benefits are worth about 50% of your salary. So you can now say that the VW employees are making an equivalent of $22 per hour.

Oilhammer, I'm glad I didn't have a mouth full of coffee when I read "baby cannon"
My mistake. You are absolutely correct. So this is more people that will have to show up at the emergency room with a sore throat because they have no health care. Gee.

Note-progressive taxation is not redistribution:

One thing to remember is that it is MUCH easier to double your investment when your investment is a million dollars, than if your investment is $1000. That is why a progressive tax system is fair. One must pay for harvesting large sums from our economy (at least it is not unreasonable). After all, it is the rest of us that ARE the economy that is being fleeced. I'd simply call that an appropriate pay to play policy. Big money has ENORMOUS advantage over modest income folks in generating profit (by percent of investment), and it is unfair to the rest of us that they not pay for the privilege of "playing in the sandbox". To be handed a lower tax rate on top of that advantage is sheer stupidity. More money just has a bigger advantage: the advantage in payoff (% of investment) generally gets bigger as the amount invested grows. So, a progressive tax system is fair. It is amazing that this concept can be so hard to convey. The idea of a "flat tax" seems fair to the simple minded.

And, as far as under taxing superwealthy is concerned, WHEN will the death nail finally be placed in the myth that tax breaks for the wealthy results in job creation? How long have these rates been this way? How many jobs have been shed while these tax breaks have been in effect?
 

aja8888

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Yes, you are not speaking for everyone. I'll end up paying MUCH more, and get hardly anything back. And folks younger than me expect even more "redistribution of wealth". They are on Wall Street right now whining about it. GET A JOB INSTEAD, YOU STUPID PROTESTERS!!! :mad:
The real easy way to fix the SS problem is to not give benefits to people WHO HAVE NOT PAID INTO THE SYSTEM FOR A MINIMUM TIME. That would clear things up.;)
 

kjclow

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An Indian co-worker established residnecy and then brought his retired parents over to help raise the children. The parents were able to collect SS without having ever paid a penny in US taxes.
 

bhtooefr

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On the topic of government intervention needing more government intervention... in this case, it'd be the government ultimately intervening less, because it wouldn't give benefits to baby cannons, or it would shut down baby cannons.

Re: the second amendment being useful... unfortunately, traps have been deemed illegal (meaning, you have to either watch your property all the time, or hire someone to do it for you), and not all states have a castle doctrine. However, the "worse" category could be put into play here - allow police to use deadly force to protect property. (Alternately, death penalty being brought into play for theft, although that just means that they'll commit worse crimes to avoid getting caught.)

For the social security thing... I don't really have a problem with it benefiting any US citizen, regardless of how long they paid into it. However, the need should be demonstrated - an inability to work should be a requirement of getting social security benefits. (And, citizenship is another thing - IMO, if you weren't born with citizenship, you should have to demonstrate - with a history based on residence within the US for a minimum amount of time - that your citizenship will contribute to the United States. And, if you're working during that residence, you'll have to pay taxes.)

Another thing that's screwing us over is offshoring. Megacorps expect our money, and then send that money overseas for what's almost slave labor. (I don't have any problem with offshoring for a better quality product - that creates healthy competition - but when offshoring is used to work around labor standards, that's what I have a problem with.) I think I proposed a taxation-based fix for that earlier in the thread, though, that also solves the export problem.
 

dubStrom

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When I lived in Wisconsin, they tried to implement a training program tied to welfare. If you collected welfare, you had to learn a trade. I think they even tried to limit welfare to three years. ACLU was all over that one so I don't know if it survived or not.

I understand foodstamps if you are working and not making enough money to keep food on the table. I just have a hardtime with the whole welfare/handouts for the non-working, non-trying people.

I also want to jump up and down screaming, "WHERE"S MY SHARE?" for not having to take a handout or turn my house over to foreclosure. I've been paying mortgages and car payments for about 30 years. Maybe if I hadn't moved so many times, my house would be almost payed for and I could throw a lot more money into the black pit of the stock market. I could then sit back and wonder how I'm going to make ends meet on social security and see what the governement will put in MY outstretched hand.
The original idea of SS was as a safety net for unfortunate circumstances. And it does keep some people just barely alive. But these days, with the corporate gutting of promised retirement plans, and the irresponsibility of unregulated investment banking destroying the economy (Naw, they won't steal it if we let them :rolleyes: Yes, lets trust people with our money, without any oversight), people like me may have nothing to support our retirement. And the idea of privatizing social security, or the new trend towards 403b or 401k rather than a defined retirement just puts our retirement income in the risky hands of investment bankers that have proven that they cannot be trusted.

I do hope to get a few hundred a month from SS if I ever can retire. I have paid into the system for about 40 years in those payroll taxes that include SS and medicare deductions. But I am not holding my breath. My oldest brother has been colllecting SS for a couple of years now, despite being staunchly pro privatization (and anti-regulation) for decades. He had that opinion until he retired. Now he likes his SS check, especially since his 401k retirement savings were depleted by more than 50% just as he was about to retire. He is actually reconsidering the consequences of deregulation. Go figure.
 
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oxford_guy

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Once again, I think it bears pointing out that "responsibility/austerity for the little people" and "luxury for the supermen" is a concept that is responsible for the current record level of income inequality in the USA and our regression in the world in many areas, such as health, education, and imprisonment.

You know what that regression means, don't you? It means your salary is in jeopardy, your standard of living. It doesn't matter how much you think you know, or how hard you think you work. Those things don't matter when there's someone out there more desperate and exploitable. It's not "welfare queens" and "foreign Social Security scammers" that you need to be concentrating on. In a system of rising income inequality, working hard means less and less! There are fewer and fewer resources for everyone to compete for. That means the value of each person's labor is diminished.

The 4 billion that went to a hedge fund guy in one year is a lot more important in the big picture than people getting Social Security money without having paid into the system and whether or not an autoworker makes $20 an hour rather than $12. Krugman said, for instance, that repealing the Bush tax cuts for the rich would have paid for three times the projected Social Security shortfall. The Obama administration's starve-SS policy (via a payroll tax cut) may have shrunk that difference. But, still, people need to focus on where most of the money is going. Look at my chart that shows what's causing the deficit to grow. If you want to stop wasting money on people who don't deserve it, then stop allowing the politicians to drain everyone for the benefit of the military/industrial complex and the super rich:

There is one truth in politics: follow the money.



"We run the risk, by laying out the pros and cons of a particular argument, of inducing people to join in on the debate..." -- Greenspan, trying to keep the public from knowing about the housing bubble/con

Members of my family (by marriage) just found out how vulnerable they are. They are losing their home because one of them lost her job. They just bought that home, too. They are going to have to pull their son out of private school. They wanted to give him the advantage of having a good school and a good home. They're going to have to do more with less. The old austerity recipe came home to roost. They aren't lazy or incompetent. She worked at her firm for 18 years. But her work is being outsourced to China.

You are replaceable, and you don't work as hard as people who are the ideal workers. The ideal workers are people like the young women in Thailand who worked at a shoe factory. They were all at their physical peak, around 18 years old. They were bused in and worked until they dropped. For those who managed to make it through a month, they would go to the factory to collect their pay (being promised payment once per month), only to find the factory locked up and moved to another location. Those are ideal "hard" workers. Not you.

If big business can wring every drop of blood out of you and give you nothing in return, it will. And, this is exactly what is happening with increasing wealth consolidation and globalization.
 
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aja8888

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The original idea of SS was as a safety net for unfortunate circumstances.
The original idea of SS was to supplement people's retirement years for those who contributed to the fund. Then it became a social program to get votes.

In a few more years (~15 - 20?) when social welfare outlays exceed government collections from working stiffs, his country is financially doomed. No wonder the Russians and other countries have given up wanting to *acquire* the U.S.

Just have a look at what is going on in Greece and the socialist European countries....all on the edge of default because of too many handouts for people who don't work.
 
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nicklockard

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..and that IS the problem right there in a nutshell. Why does the Federal gov't feel the need to dictate protocol for the individual American?

People need to go back and read what the founding fathers had in mind: the United States of America. Each state was to dictate its OWN local laws for its OWN inhabitants. The Federal gov't was just in place for a couple key things. Foreign affairs (meaning, any interaction OUTSIDE of these United States), a common currency (so all these states could more easily interact with one another for commerce), and for any mitigation amongst the states (border disputes, water resource disputes, etc., much of which dictated the shapes of our states).

But several things happened that gave WAY too much power to the Federal gov't, so much so that it has become this bloated, oversized, runaway train with no brakes, and is now on fire, headed for a bridge, that was built by the Chinese.... :eek:

1: War of 1812 (ie, the second Revolutionary War). This made necessary for the actual American military to be made stronger than any state militia could possibly be.

2: American Civil War. This made it clear the Federal gov't needed a stronger handle on ALL military, especially state militia, and the post-1860's American military became the new norm, bigger than it ever was.

3: Spanish American War, this new giant military was deemed necessary to kick the crap out of the Spaniards (we are still paying taxes set in place to pay for this, BTW... look it up!).

4: WW2... this galvanized the massive spending and massive size growth of the Federal gov't like nothing seen before, ushered in some taxation the likes of which no American had seen before, and was easily passed because so many Americans were really afraid of the Axis. And while there was very little threat to us really, the gov't made sure this threat lived on in the form of the Cold War, which of course took until the 1980s to peak then fizzle, and has now been replaced with "the War on Terror" (whatever that is).

Tax-tax-tax, spend-spend-spend... what the Federal gov't has gotten VERY good at over the years! And now, we seem to be running out of real wars to use as a reason to prop the giant albatross up, so let's start kicking the crap out of a bunch of Arab countries! Oh, and North Korea? Yeah, you're day is coming, too! :rolleyes:

How about this: bring all our bloated military HOME, stop spending 11ty Billion a second to rebuild these crazy whack-job places that would rather blow each other up, and fix our local infrastructure at home instead???
Moreover, most people don't know, but our founding fathers were ADAMANTLY opposed to standing armies. They wrote our constitution to include provisioning and authority to establish a navy and marine forces as our only permanent militarized force. It was always intended that in time of war, we would call up the states militias by draft, and that after a peace agreement had been reached, they would return to their homes and farms. Talk about federal over-reach. Ever since WWII we have been in a permanent state of war with a standing army/air force that our founders NEVER had any intentions of. They were horrified of this notion, as they knew it would lead to financial enslavement of the people by those in power--just as history of every nation before us has shown. Because of this, our military/industrial/congressional triad has bled our coffers dry and started wars to justify it's 'need'.
 

Jack Frost

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Just have a look at what is going on in Greece and the socialist European countries....all on the edge of default because of too many handouts for people who don't work.
It is more complex that than. One of the many problems that Greece has is that they can't administrate their own taxation system. There are too many people working under the table and their government loses out on the revenue. Apparantly, the rich Greeks are the worst for this - not the lay-abouts.

And they have a terrible problem with corruption. I knew someone who move there to start up a business, but had to give up. One of the many problems he had to deal with was the corruption. This was two years ago so I can't say I am surprized to hear that Greece is floundering.

So it is not so much that there are too many Greeks who don't work and are getting handouts. It is their economy that doesn't work and yet expect handouts.
 

axnels2

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I came across an old "joke" that is very appropriate to this thread/discussion....


Suppose that once a month, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all of them comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes and claim State benefits, it would go something like this;
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
And the tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that’s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every month and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem. “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by $20.” Drinks for the ten men would now cost just $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men; the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share? They realised that $20 divided by six is $3.33 but if they subtracted that from everybody’s share then not only would the first four men still be drinking for free but the fifth and sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.
So the bar owner suggested a different system. The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing.
The sixth man paid $2 instead of $3 .
The seventh paid $5 instead of $7.
The eighth paid $9 instead of $12.
The ninth paid $14 instead of $18.
And the tenth man now paid $49 instead of $59. 
Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free.
But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings. “I only got $1 out of the $20 saving,” declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, “but he got $10!”
“Yes, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a $1 too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!”
“That’s true!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get $10 back, when I only got $2? The rich get all the breaks!”
“Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “we didn’t get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!”
So, the nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. Funnily enough, the next month the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him.
But when it came to pay for their drinks, they discovered something important – they didn’t have enough money between all of them to pay for even half the bill.
 

dubStrom

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You cannot simply "not show up" for the IRS on April 15th. And 15% tax rate on capitol gains is hardly beating up on anyone.

Again,,, it is much easier to make, say 20%, on your investment, if your investment is over a million dollars. And almost impossible if your investment is less than $10,000

The more money you have to invest, the easier it is to make a higher percent of your investment. To give the higher income people a tax reduction/loophole on top of this inherent advantage is simply unfair. If you are one of the really wealthy folks, and you cannot figure out how to take advantage of those low rates using tax law, then you probably didn't earn those millions, but rather, they were handed to you.

And when, when will we drive the death nail in that stupid fairy tale that giving wealthy folks a tax break creates jobs. We've been doing that for nearly a decade now, and look at the unemployment rate. The way to do it is to grant tax breaks based on jobs actually created, and penalizing destructive behaviors like off-shoring jobs, and divesting out of US labor markets. Carrot, and stick.

The low, low tax rates on capitol gains just takes wealth from the budget and increases the wealth of the most wealthy. It is a redistribution of wealth.:eek:
 
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Ski in NC

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Second that. If some hyper-compensated executive is given a stock option as a part of a compensation package, it is not an "investment". It is pay. For it to be taxed at the capital gains rate is a ruse.

Keeping capital gains rates low has its advantages to the economy, no problem there. But pay is pay and at hyper levels it should be subject to a very progressive scale.
 

kjclow

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I'm all for getting paid for the job you're capable of doing but what really set me off last week was the announcement of Bank of America charging $5 a month to use your debit card for transactions. Meanwhile, BofA also announced two people being let go with combined severence packages of about $11 milllion. Imagine how far that $11 million would go towards that stupid $5 monthly fee. Perhaps they could see there way to paying me more than 0.05% interest on my accounts.
 

EJS

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................And for unskilled labor look at the money VWs CEO is making. any joker with an MBA could do his job and honestly Fred would probably do a better job running the company just because he has a passion for the product.
Depends, the typical US MBA..........aka the "Epic Fail" program? Doesn't matter anyway, he got the job - only the stockholders have a damn bit of say in his pay.

As oilhammer pointed out back on page one - no skilled labor in the plant, really $12 is over paid. Likely harder to punch the pictures on the fast food cash regiater than any job done by humans in the plant. All the skilled labor, including most of the QA is done by robots.

I'm all for getting paid for the job you're capable of doing but what really set me off last week was the announcement of Bank of America charging $5 a month to use your debit card for transactions. Meanwhile, BofA also announced two people being let go with combined severence packages of about $11 milllion. Imagine how far that $11 million would go towards that stupid $5 monthly fee. Perhaps they could see there way to paying me more than 0.05% interest on my accounts.
You're barking up the wrong tree - try taking it out on the culprits, Americans. Merchants with their "wah, wah, wah...my ba-gina hurts" whining got the legislation passed = less $$$ earned. Anyone really dumb enough to think they weren't going to make that up elsewhere?

Same with the overdraft legislation - create laws because morons can't manage a checkbook - who will bear the cost again?

Always sounds good to blame the boogey man but legislation geared tword wiping arse rarely works out well for most people.
 
Joined
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Location
Earth
TDI
'00 GOLF
You cannot simply "not show up" for the IRS on April 15th. And 15% tax rate on capitol gains is hardly beating up on anyone.

Again,,, it is much easier to make, say 20%, on your investment, if your investment is over a million dollars. And almost impossible if your investment is less than $10,000

The more money you have to invest, the easier it is to make a higher percent of your investment. To give the higher income people a tax reduction/loophole on top of this inherent advantage is simply unfair. If you are one of the really wealthy folks, and you cannot figure out how to take advantage of those low rates using tax law, then you probably didn't earn those millions, but rather, they were handed to you.

And when, when will we drive the death nail in that stupid fairy tale that giving wealthy folks a tax break creates jobs. We've been doing that for nearly a decade now, and look at the unemployment rate. The way to do it is to grant tax breaks based on jobs actually created, and penalizing destructive behaviors like off-shoring jobs, and divesting out of US labor markets. Carrot, and stick.

The low, low tax rates on capitol gains just takes wealth from the budget and increases the wealth of the most wealthy. It is a redistribution of wealth.:eek:
Everything sounds great with your words of redistribution.
The REAL problem is not solely taxation, but/and clandestine HUGE unrealistic regulations on big business or small local business
Gargantuan unchecked monstrous government needs to be apprehended and dealt with, brutally and swift. It is insanity to put career politician in the same sentence, to describe the daily life activity of one person.
This is not why the U.S. forefathers declared independence. They convened when needed and that is that. Don't tell me times are different, because that is hogwash.
The whole quagmire of redundant issues being regurgitated day in day out, year after year, is outright negligence of compromise, and being a kink in the road just to be assured of a another free-ride, payed underhanded token to waste more time. ***!! Wake Up.
TERM LIMITS and NOW. Report cards quarterly and that's it!!!
And what gives with our educational system....NOTHING...that's what.
We the people of the U.S.A are raising a no-commonsense, illogical future. All because Big Government. To hell with politically correctiveness and grade school teacher tenor-ship. I'm sorry, but if you suck at teaching, then find something you can do.
The future lies in the hands of our offspring abeit natural or non-naturilised citizenship. Ignorance and moronic plaguing of failure, to due for ones self, knows no ethnicity.
Wether you like it or not we are the melting pot of the World.

Get your boots on!!!!
 

40X40

Experienced
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Location
Kansas City area, MO
TDI
2013 Passat SEL Premium
You cannot simply "not show up" for the IRS on April 15th. <SNIP>

Sure you can, it happens all the time in several different ways. Here are couple of examples:

A. You die. (not showing up for sure...) Your money however, shows up for one last visit.

B. You lose your job and are too old to get one paying nearly what the old one did. This time YOU show up, but your money doesn't.

C. Your investments fail. You show up again, but without your money....(again)

D. You retire, shield your meager 'wealth' in a legitimate manner and in effect show up, but without your 'money'.

E. You take a job overseas and do it in such a way that your entire annual pay is tax exempt. You show up (file a return), but your earnings don't. (again)

You guys get the idea.....

Bill
 

thebigarniedog

Master of the Obvious
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Location
Fail Command (Central Ohio)
TDI
1998 Jetta tdi
It is more complex that than. One of the many problems that Greece has is that they can't administrate their own taxation system. There are too many people working under the table and their government loses out on the revenue. Apparantly, the rich Greeks are the worst for this - not the lay-abouts.

And they have a terrible problem with corruption. I knew someone who move there to start up a business, but had to give up. One of the many problems he had to deal with was the corruption. This was two years ago so I can't say I am surprized to hear that Greece is floundering.

So it is not so much that there are too many Greeks who don't work and are getting handouts. It is their economy that doesn't work and yet expect handouts.
When you work "under the table" and contribute nothing to the various withholding taxes you can expect nothing. Our goberment changed some of that with social security disability. I see alot of able body people getting social security disability now.


Second that. If some hyper-compensated executive is given a stock option as a part of a compensation package, it is not an "investment". It is pay. For it to be taxed at the capital gains rate is a ruse.

Keeping capital gains rates low has its advantages to the economy, no problem there. But pay is pay and at hyper levels it should be subject to a very progressive scale.
I am not a CPA, but I would expect that any time you are "given" stocks or options it is a succession to wealth, clearly realized for which you have dominion and control and thus qualifies as ordinary income. I am sure that someone who is a CPA will correct my folly ......

I like the beer example and would ad a few things to it. The original 4 people would drink more beer, since it is free to them (ie the quantity they consume would increase and their beer choice would not be effected by the price of the beer) .... they also would attract other people who would want in on the "free beer" and those paying for the beer would get sick and tired of their free loading arses after a while and would stop going. Of course, the free loaders would still want them to pay for the beer and would clamor about the relative unfairness of their desire not to pay for the beer anymore. In economics, price elasticity of demand tells us that when something is free, demand is unlimited. The same concept seems at play with taxation.

When you read a bunch of postings on those who believe "soaking" the rich is a viable solution (ie having someone else pay for your beer) you are left with the sour taste on how our educational system has utterly failed. The American dream is not having someone else pick up the tab .......
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
When you read a bunch of postings on those who believe "soaking" the rich is a viable solution (ie having someone else pay for your beer) you are left with the sour taste on how our educational system has utterly failed. The American dream is not having someone else pick up the tab .......
 

40X40

Experienced
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Location
Kansas City area, MO
TDI
2013 Passat SEL Premium
<SNIP>
When you read a bunch of postings on those who believe "soaking" the rich is a viable solution (ie having someone else pay for your beer) you are left with the sour taste on how our educational system has utterly failed. The American dream is not having someone else pick up the tab .......
^+1 as well.

Not just the educational system, but the mental health system as well. This is a a prime example of 'Dysfunctional'.

Bill
 
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